Are you happy with Patriots' front office approach this offseason

[dtwisyPat]

The front office should be demoted to the back and stripped of their draft pics. There isn't enough stone on the Great Wall of China to rebuild this team, especially with these bone heads in charge.

 

[Don_the_patfan]

That's going to be a tough sell.

It didn't sell did it? Well look at it this way. If a player is looking for a new contract for a long time and now he has the opportunity to get that contract what made us think he would accept to play for the pats on his current deal? You cannot call that an attempt. I know, you know and everyone knows that deal had no chance from the get go if what we were offering was basically nothing but what he already had in Arizona. That is not the way you attract players. It's just not logical.

 

[Ring 6]

The front office should be demoted to the back and stripped of their draft pics. There isn't enough stone on the Great Wall of China to rebuild this team, especially with these bone heads in charge.

Leave troll

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I posted my thoughts on another thread but it is appropriate to adapt them on this thread today.

I guess this is just our lucky day...

Give the NY Jets and Miami their due: They know what they want and they are not afraid to go out and get it......at a REASONABLE price relative to the RISK.

That would depend on your definition of reasonable. A 5th for a clown who is already suspended for 4 games and was going to be cut if you hadn't stepped to the plate isn't reasonable in my book. Two seconds and $24M guaranteed isn't reasonable for a problem child who wore out his welcome with two HC's and an ownership. The trading teams got the better of both deals for a reason. Two desperate teams made risky deals because the clock is ticking in Tannenbaum's office and in his mentor's office, the guy who taught him how to swing for the fences in a turnaround (and then head for the hills before the cleanup if you swing and miss). He'd made a heck of a mess in NY, which is one of the many reasons why BB moved north.

Not too long ago, you could say that of the Patriots (witness the Moss and Welker trade). No longer.

Apples and oranges comparisons are meaningless. Moss restructured his deal to a one year prove it deal and he was not in any trouble with the league. Welker was a second and a 7th in a weak draft and his entire deal was for a third less than Marshall is guaranteed. That's value.

The Patriots mistakes of last season are haunting Patriot management. Their free agent foray of last year netted Galloway and Baker (one didn't last the season and the other was dumped this off season) and they traded valuable draft picks for mediocre talents like Lewis (from the Iggles) and Burgess from Oakland Raiders (for a third and fifth draft picks this year). Compounding these errors in talent evaluation was the lack of locker room cohesion, largely blamed on Adalius Thomas (a 07 free agent whose signing was much acclaimed at that time) and unnamed others.

Having been bitten by their past off season mistakes, they are now too shy -- too vary of making ANY risky moves no matter how low the price.

That is BS. Just because they don't like the players or risk involved in signing this seasons limited FA doesn't mean they're shy. It means they're what they've always been with few exceptions, conservative and disciplined. Fans need to embrace the simple reality that THEY DIDN'T WANT THESE PLAYERS by and large for a variety of legitimate reasons. Peppers was the only one in which they expressed minimal interest IF he were interested in a prove it deal to back up his claim he wanted to play in the 3-4 - he proved immediately that was a crock. They had no interest per BB in Boldin, they had no interest in Marshall or Holmes (and neither did 30-31 other teams apparently), and they had no interest in Cromartie or the shell of LdT.

Team management and ownership seem frozen -- unable or unwilling to undertake the kind of prior signature moves that paid great dividends in the past (witness Dillon or Moss). This off season alone, the Patriots could have signed Stallworth (for near the league minimum) -- but did not. They could have traded for and signed Boldin, by all accounts a good team member, for a reasonable price -- but did not. (Yes, I know they did not have a third round draft choice to offer the Cardinals but could easily have worked out something acceptable). They could have traded for Holmes -- but did not. (Again the third and fifth pick given up for Burgess turns out to have a very high opportunity cost) Yes they deserve credit for signing their own free agents but that simply preserves the status quo team of last year. Where is the improvement? The Pats don't even seem to be involved with Jason Taylor -- who is an unrestricted free agent and one whom they openly admired. And Marshall for two second-rounders over two years seems like a reasonable price. Of course, the 4 year extension at an average of $ 10 million a year would have made him the highest paid receiver on the team -- but would have assured the Pats one of the best receivers in the league long after Moss is gone.

Management isn't frozen. It's simply learned it's lesson. Felger's latest thesis, that the shortsighted mistake they made with Dillion and Moss, the ones that led delusional fans to now assume that there is no such thing as an unacceptable risk, is what had led them to where we are today is not without merit. Each had one season for the ages on arrival here. One led to a ring, the other missed the goal by the slimmest of margins. Both players were extended and neither has been remotely as impactful since. If you want to wag a finger at the FO, this would be a better place to start wagging - and at the extensions primarily because that was where the error was compounded. And you could add AD to that mix as well because someone didn't research his attitude sufficiently in light of the red flag that Ozzie wasn't willing to retain him at top tier price.

I know part of the answer will be from the 12 picks -- four in the first two rounds -- in what is believed to be a deep draft. NY Jets now have only six picks total and two in the first two rounds. But arguably they have banked a lot of talent in Holmes and Cromartie. Last year they hit homeruns with free agents and they are willing to dare. But they are not rash -- they are taking on calculated and acceptable risk -- at a risk adjusted price they deem affordable. Indeed, if the epic length of this thread is any indication, Patriot Nation seems to have taken notice of the intelligent moves made by the Jets. Neutral observers are lauding the Jets for their moves. By any definition getting a talent like Holmes for a fifth draft choice is only possible because he is a troubled talent. But that did not stop the Patriots in the past?

They say if you don't learn from your mistakes you are doomed to repeat them. That could be the JETS mantra for the last 40 years. The jury is still out in NY on the Rexinbaum regime. They looked like shmucks in week 14 last season, but fate handed them a pass. They haven't experienced year 2 of anything, yet.

What should concern us is not any specific signing by the Jets or the Dolphins or any other team. What should concern Pat Fans is the evident pattern this off season of a complete LACK of willingness on the part of Patriot management in doing anything in adding through free agents. Banking on the draft is itself not without risk. This inability or unwillingness to engage is a cause for concern. As is also the management's ability to evaluate talent available through free agency or through trades.

You sound like one of those people who rushes out to stock up on sale items, even if they have no use for them, just to say they got a deal.

Finally, you have to wonder whether the team's paradigm of not willing to give a long term contract to players imported via trade, a la Moss who got a new contract only after playing out his old contract. Welker was the one exception. So long as the team maintains this policy, it essentially takes itself out of contention for the Boldins and Marshalls of the world. The all-purpose answer to all team questions is the draft. By choosing not to participate in free agency, all we can do is wait and see.

This team didn't ever win superbowls as a result of of splashy FA signings or blockbuster trades. They won it as a result of drafting carefully (including retaining existing talent drafted by the prior regime that still fit this system) and selective signings in the secondary (castoff) FA and trade market that most fans here scoffed at at the time. That said they have never been afraid to make bold moves to improve this team if they felt they would improve the team. Trading Bledsoe to a division rival proved that. Fans now want them to just make bold moves for boldness sake, a strategy generally born of frustration and desperation, and that is never going to be the MO here. That so many applaud teams forced to do just that would be comical if it wasn't so pathetic.

Woody is desperate to sell PSL's. Tuna is in year 3 of his Miami deal. Lovie and his GM are clinging to jobs by their fingernails. Andy Reid's been in Philly for a decade now and lost the only superbowl he sniffed. Baltimore hasn't won in a decade. Tick tock.

We haven't gone undefeated in...two whole seasons. We lost The Franchise for a whole season and only went 11-5. We got him back and lost the core defense and only won the division... Really, some of you should just go root for a better consistently managed team. And do this board and this franchise a favor and take all the circle jerking chronic malcontents and chicken littles threads like this draw out from under their rocks with you.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

It didn't sell did it? Well look at it this way. If a player is looking for a new contract for a long time and now he has the opportunity to get that contract what made us think he would accept to play for the pats on his current deal? You cannot call that an attempt. I know, you know and everyone knows that deal had no chance from the get go if what we were offering was basically nothing but what he already had in Arizona. That is not the way you attract players. It's just not logical.

So the better thing to do was pay him over 300% more than Wes Welker will make this season? Don't you think a lot of players, not just Welker, would have seen that as a little insulting?

 

[Ring 6]

It didn't sell did it? Well look at it this way. If a player is looking for a new contract for a long time and now he has the opportunity to get that contract what made us think he would accept to play for the pats on his current deal? You cannot call that an attempt. I know, you know and everyone knows that deal had no chance from the get go if what we were offering was basically nothing but what he already had in Arizona. That is not the way you attract players. It's just not logical.

Of course it isnt logical because you make the incorrect assumption that the Patriots would have been willing to pay Boldin what he got.
It makes all the sense in the world that they would have offered every bit of what they thought he was worth, and if someone else offered more, he went there.
Not to mention that you are guessing at all of the components of your argument, because no one knows for sure whether the Patriots had any interest in Boldin at any price, or whether they ever even discussed a contract with him, or internally.

 

[Don_the_patfan]

Of course it isnt logical because you make the incorrect assumption that the Patriots would have been willing to pay Boldin what he got.It makes all the sense in the world that they would have offered every bit of what they thought he was worth, and if someone else offered more, he went there. Not to mention that you are guessing at all of the components of your argument, because no one knows for sure whether the Patriots had any interest in Boldin at any price, or whether they ever even discussed a contract with him, or internally.

What I was referring to and what isn't logical is to expect a player like Boldin to come in and play under his at the time current contract. So to the pats he was worth one year under his at the time again current deal. That was the report that came out at the time and that's what I am going by:

Patriots Day 1 free agent recap - Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Were in on the trade talks for Cardinals receiver Anquan Boldin, with ESPN senior analyst Chris Mortensen reporting that the team would have had Boldin play out the final year of his contract.

That's the point I am arguing. Lets not go and mix and match arguments. If the pats offered a multi year deal with lower money then Welker that is a different argument.

 

[Ring 6]

What I was referring to and what isn't logical is to expect a player like Boldin to come in and play under his at the time current contract. So to the pats he was worth one year under his at the time again current deal. That was the report that came out at the time and that's what I am going by:

Patriots Day 1 free agent recap - Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston



That's the point I am arguing. Lets not go and mix and match arguments. If the pats offered a multi year deal with lower money then Welker that is a different argument.

And Lombardi reported that the Pats were never involved, so who knows.
But that isnt the point.
If there are conflicting reports, then the details of that report are also in question.
That report is dubious at best. IF the Pats were in on trade talks, how would Mortensen know what their intention was with the players contract if, in fact, they made the highest offer?
And, even if all of that is correct, what you end up with is that the Pats would have been willing to trade for the player at his current deal, but unwilling to give him an extension, because he simply isnt worth that kind of money, an opinion I would agree with.

I don't really know what point you are trying to make, but to make it with a hearsay 3rd party quote from a 3rd party who probabyl didn't have access to the facts at a time when those facts were not part of the equation yet and when those facts are denied by another reporter---one who has a history and seemingly more inside info with the Patriots, just seems a hair north of fantasy.

 

[Ring 6]

What I was referring to and what isn't logical is to expect a player like Boldin to come in and play under his at the time current contract. So to the pats he was worth one year under his at the time again current deal. That was the report that came out at the time and that's what I am going by:

Patriots Day 1 free agent recap - Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston



That's the point I am arguing. Lets not go and mix and match arguments. If the pats offered a multi year deal with lower money then Welker that is a different argument.

I never said they offered him any contract, I said they would offer him whatever they felt he was worth, which may have just been his current contract. I find it silly to think that they were negotiating a contract before even agreeing on a trade.

 

[Don_the_patfan]

And, even if all of that is correct, what you end up with is that the Pats would have been willing to trade for the player at his current deal, but unwilling to give him an extension, because he simply isnt worth that kind of money, an opinion I would agree with.

I don't really know what point you are trying to make, but to make it with a hearsay 3rd party quote from a 3rd party who probaby didn't have access to the facts at a time when those facts were not part of the equation yet and when those facts are denied by another reporter---one who has a history and seemingly more inside info with the Patriots, just seems a hair north of fantasy.

That was the report at the time and I understand you feel it should be discredited but that's what we have to go on unless we work for the pats and we know what went down. And the premise is based on that.

If the report by Mortensen is true that the pats went after Boldin with the intention to let him play under his current deal I find that an attempt in futility since I have stated before he wanted out of that contract for a long while. In other words a disingenuous attempt since everyone knows Boldin would NEVER agree to that. It was an attempt doomed to fail and the pats had to know that. Unless they thought he would somehow agree to play under his at the time current contract just so he could play for the pats

Now if there is a report out there that they were willing to offer a multiple year contract under what Wes Welker is making then that is a different discussion. Show us a link.

 

[Ring 6]

That was the report at the time and I understand you feel it should be discredited but that's what we have to go on unless we work for the pats and we know what went down. And the premise is based on that.

If the report by Mortensen is true that the pats went after Boldin with the intention to let him play under his current deal I find that an attempt in futility since I have stated before he wanted out of that contract for a long while. In other words a disingenuous attempt since everyone knows Boldin would NEVER agree to that. It was an attempt doomed to fail and the pats had to know that. Unless they thought he would somehow agree to play under his at the time current contract just so he could play for the pats

Now if there is a report out there that they were willing to offer a multiple year contract under what Wes Welker is making then that is a different discussion. Show us a link.

OK, you seem to want to overlook the fact that there was a conflicting report from Lombardi that we were never in the mix.

I have never said anything about any offer, you keep making that up to.
What they were willing to pay him IF YOU BELIEVE THE MORT REPORT is what was on his contract.
If that is what they were willing to pay, and they made an offer to trade for him, what is the issue? You want them to make an offer and pay more than they are willing to?
I don;t get the fascination on this board to chase injury prone, suspension pendng and other types of unreliable players. I guess it makes it hard to critize not signing a guy if you acknowledge the reasons they didnt??????

 

[PatsFanStnfrd]

So the better thing to do was pay him over 300% more than Wes Welker will make this season? Don't you think a lot of players, not just Welker, would have seen that as a little insulting?

So, by your yardstick, the Ravens who just made Boldin the highest paid receiver on their team, and the Dolphins who made Marshall one of the highest paid receivers in the game just made the rest of their locker room hopping mad -- and may have just destroyed their teams' chemistry. Yet, both these teams are considered competently managed and there are no whispers of revolt from existing team leaders/veterans.

Most team management and players understand the reality that a highly regarded player acquired by trade often requires a new contract which may surpass existing salaries on the acquiring team. Last I looked, managing such a situation is within the job description of team ownership and management. That may include addressing any inequities in pay through extensions/adjustments over time.

Of course, both Boldin and Marshall are top proven talents. So, their situation is the exception rather than the rule. But any team management that shies away from such situations because of a blanket fear of not offending their existing players may be condemning themselves to be at a competitive disadvantage to those who dare.

 

[Coach42]

This team didn't ever win superbowls as a result of of splashy FA signings or blockbuster trades. They won it as a result of drafting carefully (including retaining existing talent drafted by the prior regime that still fit this system) and selective signings in the secondary (castoff) FA and trade market that most fans here scoffed at at the time. That said they have never been afraid to make bold moves to improve this team if they felt they would improve the team. Trading Bledsoe to a division rival proved that. Fans now want them to just make bold moves for boldness sake, a strategy generally born of frustration and desperation, and that is never going to be the MO here. That so many applaud teams forced to do just that would be comical if it wasn't so pathetic.

Woody is desperate to sell PSL's. Tuna is in year 3 of his Miami deal. Lovie and his GM are clinging to jobs by their fingernails. Andy Reid's been in Philly for a decade now and lost the only superbowl he sniffed. Baltimore hasn't won in a decade. Tick tock.

We haven't gone undefeated in...two whole seasons. We lost The Franchise for a whole season and only went 11-5. We got him back and lost the core defense and only won the division... Really, some of you should just go root for a better consistently managed team. And do this board and this franchise a favor and take all the circle jerking chronic malcontents and chicken littles threads like this draw out from under their rocks with you.

Bravo!!!! Thank you I totally agree with you. Let's just see how things play out before send the Lombardi to New York, Foxboro, or make some other completely nonsensical declaration for the 2010 season before we even know what teams 53 man rosters look like.

 

[DarrylS]

Last year the Saints or Indy, did not make any big free agent moves...

This year the top 4 faves in the NFL according to Las Vegas odds, Indy, Saints, Pittsburgh and New England have not made major moves... Pittsburgh may be doing the addition by subtraction thing..

There is a trend here to build a team from within, to break the bank on great talents with little other upside would not serve this team well, and may not serve the other teams as well... we were somewhat burned by AD and do not suspect that in the future that they will go in that direction again..

 

[102 Pat]

I think it's too early to make any judgements, the draft will be very interesting to watch...

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

So, by your yardstick, the Ravens who just made Boldin the highest paid receiver on their team, and the Dolphins who made Marshall one of the highest paid receivers in the game just made the rest of their locker room hopping mad -- and may have just destroyed their teams' chemistry. Yet, both these teams are considered competently managed and there are no whispers of revolt from existing team leaders/veterans.

Most team management and players understand the reality that a highly regarded player acquired by trade often requires a new contract which may surpass existing salaries on the acquiring team. Last I looked, managing such a situation is within the job description of team ownership and management. That may include addressing any inequities in pay through extensions/adjustments over time.

Of course, both Boldin and Marshall are top proven talents. So, their situation is the exception rather than the rule. But any team management that shies away from such situations because of a blanket fear of not offending their existing players may be condemning themselves to be at a competitive disadvantage to those who dare.

The difference is that Boldin and Marshall join their new teams and instantly become the best WR on the roster. The Dolphins and Ravens really don't have anyone at the WR position that should be offended.

I'm sure Welker would like to make more money but as far as I know, hasn't made an issue of it. I would expect it would instantly become an issue if Boldin had signed the contract he got in Baltimore with us. Even coming off injury, I feel Welker would deserve more than what Boldin got.

So while adding Boldin would have definitly upgraded our WR situation, it would have potentially cost the team more than $15 million this season alone, once you add the money of a new Welker deal.

For the record, Mike Reiss was the person that suggested this as a reason Boldin was not picked up, and I think it's a good reason. As he said, players keep score, and I don't think any player would be happy bringing in an expensive new WR with Welker still sitting there making peanuts in comparison.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Last year the Saints or Indy, did not make any big free agent moves...

This year the top 4 faves in the NFL according to Las Vegas odds, Indy, Saints, Pittsburgh and New England have not made major moves... Pittsburgh may be doing the addition by subtraction thing..

There is a trend here to build a team from within, to break the bank on great talents with little other upside would not serve this team well, and may not serve the other teams as well... we were somewhat burned by AD and do not suspect that in the future that they will go in that direction again..

Agreed. It's all summed up in Bob Kraft's stated objective: to have a system in place whereby the Pats can be competitive every year. Consistently and continually building and re-building around that objective, year in and year out, is far more likely to yield Lombardi's than Dan Snyder's (and now the Jets) approach of going for broke to remove perceived obstacles to winning a Super Bowl in a particular season.

Objectives have to be "real," otherwise they are just "hopes." It is unrealistic for a franchise to have the "objective" of winning the SB every year; only 18 franchises have even won a Super Bowl and, of those 18, seven have won only once. (That's not to say that individual players won't use the hope of getting to the SB for personal motivation.)

 

[E Belichick Unum]

Agreed. It's all summed up in Bob Kraft's stated objective: to have a system in place whereby the Pats can be competitive every year. Consistently and continually building and re-building around that objective, year in and year out, is far more likely to yield Lombardi's than Dan Snyder's (and now the Jets) approach of going for broke to remove perceived obstacles to winning a Super Bowl in a particular season.

Objectives have to be "real," otherwise they are just "hopes." It is unrealistic for a franchise to have the "objective" of winning the SB every year; only 18 franchises have even won a Super Bowl and, of those 18, seven have won only once. (That's not to say that individual players won't use the hope of getting to the SB for personal motivation.)

Yeah, and the Ruins went to the playoffs for 20+ consecutive years. The AFC East has gotten considerably more competative over the last couple of weeks. The Jets have become the team to beat IMO, and I hate the Jets. Miami has worked at fixing their holes, only Buffalo has done less than the Pats.

It does no good to be the fifth best team in the league if you are the third best team in your division. I don't think it is a case of Belichick becoming gun shy, I believe that he has lost the ability to look at his team objectively. I think that the brain drain over the last couple of years has begun to cripple the team and the fact that Belichick doesn't want to bring new coaching talent in has further isolated him from contrary opinion. Belichick didn't really fail in Cleveland, but he did then exactly what he is doing right now, he has placed all the power and decision making onto his shoulders and he has failed to bring in a person who can give him an occasional dope slap.

The trend does not look good.

 

[DarrylS]

Yeah, and the Ruins went to the playoffs for 20+ consecutive years. The AFC East has gotten considerably more competative over the last couple of weeks. The Jets have become the team to beat IMO, and I hate the Jets. Miami has worked at fixing their holes, only Buffalo has done less than the Pats.

It does no good to be the fifth best team in the league if you are the third best team in your division. I don't think it is a case of Belichick becoming gun shy, I believe that he has lost the ability to look at his team objectively. I think that the brain drain over the last couple of years has begun to cripple the team and the fact that Belichick doesn't want to bring new coaching talent in has further isolated him from contrary opinion. Belichick didn't really fail in Cleveland, but he did then exactly what he is doing right now, he has placed all the power and decision making onto his shoulders and he has failed to bring in a person who can give him an occasional dope slap.

The trend does not look good.

What trend, gambling on overpriced, disgruntled or players of questionable character???

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Yeah, and the Ruins went to the playoffs for 20+ consecutive years. The AFC East has gotten considerably more competative over the last couple of weeks. The Jets have become the team to beat IMO, and I hate the Jets. Miami has worked at fixing their holes, only Buffalo has done less than the Pats.

It does no good to be the fifth best team in the league if you are the third best team in your division. I don't think it is a case of Belichick becoming gun shy, I believe that he has lost the ability to look at his team objectively. I think that the brain drain over the last couple of years has begun to cripple the team and the fact that Belichick doesn't want to bring new coaching talent in has further isolated him from contrary opinion. Belichick didn't really fail in Cleveland, but he did then exactly what he is doing right now, he has placed all the power and decision making onto his shoulders and he has failed to bring in a person who can give him an occasional dope slap.

The trend does not look good.

That's the kind of doomsaying we hear at about this time of year every offseason. If that's how you see the Pats situation, we just disagree. I think that Belichick has proven that he knows how to take a group of players and get them to generate production that far exceeds their paper value and that, with a few exceptions (Asante and the timing of the Seymour trade, which could still look good depending on the pick), he is a very, very good judge of when to grab or release talent.

As to the coaching talent with which he is or isn't surrounding himself, I think it's fair to say that the track records of Weis, Mangenius and Crennel once outside BB's orbit are spotty at best. Josh has yet to prove himself. So, it's really not clear the extent of the brain drain and how much is due to BB himself. I would agree that he probably could use someone in the locker room with the stature to stand up to him and reduce the intimidation factor for others, but he seems to know how to pick smart people who complement his skills and can work with him.