Wildcat rule question

[strongside]

a wildcat related rule question that I've been wondering about. Looking back at the TD pass by Ronnie Brown it appears that he took a shot to the head by TBC just before he released the ball. Should that have been a roughing the passer penalty? If a RB lines up as the QB and takes a direct snap, are they not subject to the same rules that are in place to protect QB's? I've seen on a few occasions the wildcat QB taks a hit that would have easily drawn a flag had it been the regular QB.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

a wildcat related rule question that I've been wondering about. Looking back at the TD pass by Ronnie Brown it appears that he took a shot to the head by TBC just before he released the ball. Should that have been a roughing the passer penalty? If a RB lines up as the QB and takes a direct snap, are they not subject to the same rules that are in place to protect QB's? I've seen on a few occasions the wildcat QB taks a hit that would have easily drawn a flag had it been the regular QB.

I'm not 100% sure of this, but it is possible that the rule only applies if the player is declared a QB at the beginning of the game (the same way that only a QB can be the "46th man" on the roster, and that only if there are exactly two QBs on the 45-man roster).

 

[PatsFanSince74]

a wildcat related rule question that I've been wondering about. Looking back at the TD pass by Ronnie Brown it appears that he took a shot to the head by TBC just before he released the ball. Should that have been a roughing the passer penalty? If a RB lines up as the QB and takes a direct snap, are they not subject to the same rules that are in place to protect QB's? I've seen on a few occasions the wildcat QB taks a hit that would have easily drawn a flag had it been the regular QB.

that's a great question and i don't know the answer. does the rule protect a player who is a QB or a player who is playing in the QB slot? Seems to me it should protect any guy who is playing in that slot, but I know we have rulebook mavens here who can enlighten us.

 

[Metaphors]

a wildcat related rule question that I've been wondering about. Looking back at the TD pass by Ronnie Brown it appears that he took a shot to the head by TBC just before he released the ball. Should that have been a roughing the passer penalty? If a RB lines up as the QB and takes a direct snap, are they not subject to the same rules that are in place to protect QB's? I've seen on a few occasions the wildcat QB taks a hit that would have easily drawn a flag had it been the regular QB.

Roughing the QB rules are different outside the pocket, so I doubt that would have been the call. Unnecessary roughness (blow to the head) might apply but without looking at a replay I'm just guessing.

So to your point, if a wildcat RB stays in the pocket he would get the same protections as any QB. Once they leave the pocket, they lose that "defenseless" protection. However from a practical perspective, QBs running outside the pocket will still get more protection than a comparable wildcat RB.

 

[bresna]

The RB in the backfield during a wildcat play is not officially the quarterback. Just look at the reverse the Dolphins ran with Henne coming across from his WR position. When the Pats tackled him for a loss, it went into the books as a sack because Henne was the officially QB.

 

[BradfordPatsFan]

The rule is "roughing the passer" so I would assume that a player who is set to pass with in the pocket is a passer. Just like a qb who is scrambling is no longer a passer but a runner.

 

[TripleOption]

The RB in the backfield during a wildcat play is not officially the quarterback. Just look at the reverse the Dolphins ran with Henne coming across from his WR position. When the Pats tackled him for a loss, it went into the books as a sack because Henne was the officially QB.

That's ludicrous. There is no such thing as an "official QB". Anyone in a defenseless postion: passing, after a handoff, recieving or kicking is covered under the rules.

 

[bresna]

That's ludicrous. There is no such thing as an "official QB". Anyone in a defenseless postion: passing, after a handoff, recieving or kicking is covered under the rules.

On a wildcat play, Henne was positioned as a WIDE RECEIVER and ran back on an end around, got the ball and was immediately tackled. It was officially recorded as a *quarterback sack*. Ludicrous or not, that is how they score it, so that it how it is. The running back receiving the snap is not the QB on that play.

 

[Wolfpack]

That's ludicrous. There is no such thing as an "official QB". Anyone in a defenseless postion: passing, after a handoff, recieving or kicking is covered under the rules.

Yes, all players at all positions are protected under the rules preventing cheap shots, hits on defenseless players, etc, etc. But we all know darn well that quarterbacks receive extra protection under the rules that do not apply to other players.

To answer the original poster's question: No, a RB or WR taking the direct snap does not receive the added protection that QB's receive.

 

[Metaphors]

Yes, all players at all positions are protected under the rules preventing cheap shots, hits on defenseless players, etc, etc. But we all know darn well that quarterbacks receive extra protection under the rules that do not apply to other players.

To answer the original poster's question: No, a RB or WR taking the direct snap does not receive the added protection that QB's receive.

Those rules are intended for passers in the pocket, not the quarterback position specifically. Wildcat RBs/WRs almost never drop back in the pocket and look to pass. If they did, all the rules that apply to Brady/Manning would apply to them.

A player's position in the eyes of the rulebook and the officials is determined by formation, not by the listing on the roster.

The Henne reverse play was ruled a sack because the official scorer determined intent. Running a reverse and pitching back to Henne 10+ yards behind the line of scrimmage clearly had only one intended purpose.

 

[Wolfpack]

Those rules are intended for passers in the pocket, not the quarterback position specifically. Wildcat RBs/WRs almost never drop back in the pocket and look to pass. If they did, all the rules that apply to Brady/Manning would apply to them.

I disagree because even out of the pocket, QB's still have extra protections, such as the rule where they are allowed to scramble and slide and no contact is allowed. I do agree, however, that a QB out of the pocket does lose some of his protection. But he is still not the same as any other player just because he is out of pocket.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

A player's position in the eyes of the rulebook and the officials is determined by formation, not by the listing on the roster.

With at least the exception of the emergency quarterback rule.

 

[strongside]

NFL Videos: Patriots 27, Dolphins 17

Here is the NFL Net highlight package. Look around 2:11. If thats any QB for any team they get the call. There has to be somthing in the rules that looks at brown clearly as a RB. Now if that was Pat White, who is listed as a QB , would he have gootten the flag.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

For purposes of roughing penalties, a passer never needs to be identified before the game. A "passer" is anyone who attempts to complete a forward pass. The rules are clear that it need not be the person who typically plays the quarterback position. It can be a person at the QB position in a wild cat. It can even be a punter on a botched punt attempt or a holder on a botched field goal, for example.

The "out of the pocket" rule is merely that a passer who is out of the pocket loses the protection of the "one step" rule -- you only get one step after release to make contact with the passer. This rule doesn't apply when the passer is out of the pocket, unless he has "clearly established a passing posture."

With respect to the "QB slide," any player who has become a runner may take advantage of the rule -- Rule 7, Sect 4 -- "An official shall declare a dead ball and the down ended . . . (c) whenever a runner declares himself down by sliding feet first on the ground. The ball is dead at the spot of hte ball at the instant the runner so touches the ground."

The bottom line is that I'm not aware of any rules that define the "quarterback" prior to the game, other than the third quarterback rule. I guess one exception might be the rules that refer to required numbers for various positions and eligibility. But with respect to roughing the passer, other passer protection rules, who may clock the ball without incurring a grounding penalty, who may kneel down to end a down (in victory formation), and who can be liable for intentional grounding, it's all done by position in formation or during a play, not based on what your name is.

Here are a couple of the roughing rules. (Sorry if I've inappropriately brought language into an otherwise pleasant debate.)

Article 12 Because the act of passing often puts the quarterback (or any other player attempting
a pass) in a position where he is particularly vulnerable to injury, special rules against roughing
the passer apply. The Referee has principal responsibility for enforcing these rules. Any physical
acts against passers during or just after a pass which, in the Referee’s judgment, are
unwarranted by the circumstances of the play will be called as fouls. The Referee will be guided
by the following principles.

[snip]

When the passer goes outside the pocket area and either continues moving with the ball (without
attempting to advance the ball as a runner) or throws while on the run, he loses the protection
of the one-step rule provided for in (1) above, but he remains covered by all the other special
protections afforded to a passer in the pocket (Numbers 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7), as well as the
regular unnecessary-roughness rules applicable to all player positions. If the passer stops behind
the line and clearly establishes a passing posture, he will then be covered by all of the special
protections for passers.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

NFL Videos: Patriots 27, Dolphins 17

Here is the NFL Net highlight package. Look around 2:11. If thats any QB for any team they get the call. There has to be somthing in the rules that looks at brown clearly as a RB. Now if that was Pat White, who is listed as a QB , would he have gootten the flag.

I agree that it should have been roughing the passer. I disagree with your conclusion that it must have been something in the rules, as opposed to normal referee error, inconsistency, or unconscious preference for "star" players.

 

[Section103]

Here are a couple of the roughing rules. (Sorry if I've inappropriately brought language into an otherwise pleasant debate.)

Article 12 Because the act of passing often puts the quarterback (or any other player attempting
a pass) in a position where he is particularly vulnerable to injury, special rules against roughing
the passer apply. The Referee has principal responsibility for enforcing these rules. Any physical
acts against passers during or just after a pass which, in the Referee’s judgment, are
unwarranted by the circumstances of the play will be called as fouls. The Referee will be guided
by the following principles.

[snip]

When the passer goes outside the pocket area and either continues moving with the ball (without
attempting to advance the ball as a runner) or throws while on the run, he loses the protection
of the one-step rule provided for in (1) above, but he remains covered by all the other special
protections afforded to a passer in the pocket (Numbers 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7), as well as the
regular unnecessary-roughness rules applicable to all player positions. If the passer stops behind
the line and clearly establishes a passing posture, he will then be covered by all of the special
protections for passers.

Where did you get this? I think this clearly explains the circumstance. Brown ran as if attempting to advance the ball as a runner (key part of the deception of the play otherwise McGowan probably never breaks coverage) and he threw on the run anyway.
In the case of the Henne sack, he stopped and established a passing posture if I remember correctly. That's why it was a sack. Had Williams taken a 'passing posture' (having never pitched to Henne), then got tackled, I assume that would have been a sack as well.

Thanks for info!

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

Where did you get this?

I have a rulebook.