Would you give the Browns a draft pick for Alex Mack?

[Brady6]

I would rather slide Connolly back to center and put Cannon or Kline at guard than pay what it will take for Mack. The Pats have too many other needs to pay top dollar for a center.

I am not sure why many feel Connolly would be an upgrade over Wendell, he played even worse than Wendell did last season. They both struggled against the pass rush but at least Wendell was good in the running game, Connolly was poor in both.

Connolly played well at center in 2011, he was 29 years old back then, and his play was significantly overrated, first he only played in 13 games and started 11 games, he graded out middle of the pack on PFF. His cap # is $4M next season, the only sliding I would be doing is he out the door. Connolly’s cap hit would make him the #11 highest paid center in the NFL, so we would have a relatively high priced center.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I am not sure why many feel Connolly would be an upgrade over Wendell, he played even worse than Wendell did last season. They both struggled against the pass rush but at least Wendell was good in the running game, Connolly was poor in both.

Connolly played well at center in 2011, he was 29 years old back then, and his play was significantly overrated, first he only played in 13 games and started 11 games, he graded out middle of the pack on PFF. His cap # is $4M next season, the only sliding I would be doing is he out the door. Connolly’s cap hit would make him the #11 highest paid center in the NFL, so we would have a relatively high priced center.

PFF's rankings are basically worthless. Connolly was a good C, but it's a good point that he may be incapable of playing now like he did in 2011, a few years and a few injuries ago. At guard, he's weak and undersized--which is true of most centers when you move them over.

 

[Brady6]

PFF's rankings are basically worthless. Connolly was a very good C, but it's a good point that he may be incapable of playing now like he did in 2011, a few years and a few injuries ago. At guard, he's weak and undersized--which is true of most centers when you move them over.

If PFF rankings were worthless the website would not getting traffic and would have shutdown. PFF rankings matter, they are not the end all be all but they are a measurable metric against others so they certainly indicate something.

Connolly was solid in 2011, but that will be three seasons in the rear view and he has not played well in the past two seasons. I also think many forget Mankins and Waters flanked him in 2011, which made life a lot easier.

Connolly also is not undersized; he actually entered the NFL as an offensive tackle. He is 6’4” 315 Lbs., which makes him the same size as Mankins.

 

[BradyFTW!]

If PFF rankings were worthless the website would not getting traffic and would have shutdown. PFF rankings matter, they are not the end all be all but they are a measurable metric against others so they certainly indicate something.

Connolly was solid in 2011, but that will be three seasons in the rear view and he has not played well in the past two seasons. I also think many forget Mankins and Waters flanked him in 2011, which made life a lot easier.

Connolly also is not undersized; he actually entered the NFL as an offensive tackle. He is 6’4” 315 Lbs., which makes him the same size as Mankins.

That might be the single dumbest argument that's ever been put forward here. Because PFF hasn't shut down due to lack of traffic, its rankings have value? I really hope I don't have to explain how ridiculous that claim is.

In any case, absurdity of that claim aside, PFF's methodology is garbage and therefore its results are garbage. The raw data is useful (participation and alignments), but any evaluation built off of that data is trash. This is true whether it has 10 uniques or 10 million. Don't believe me? Well, according to PFF Ryan Wendell is a 'secret superstar'. So which is it? Is Ryan Wendell a superstar center--in which case there's no reason for this thread to exist in the first place--or are PFF's rankings clearly wrong?

On the off chance that you want to educate yourself on how terrible of a source PFF is, this is the same outfit that ranked Vince Wilfork as the third worst DT in the entire NFL back in 2012. In 2009, PFF ranked David Garrard ahead of Tom Brady.

In 2010, when Brady won the only unanimous MVP in NFL history, PFF ranked him as the 6th best quarterback in the league, and 33rd best player overall. Behind the likes of Kareem McKenzie, Carl Nicks, Brandon Flowers, Lawrence Timmons, Brandon Lloyd and Jason Witten.

This is yet another instance where you seriously need to educate yourself on a topic before you speak authoritatively about it. Seems to be a consistent issue for you.

 

[Brady6]

That might be the single dumbest argument that's ever been put forward here. Because PFF hasn't shut down due to lack of traffic, its rankings have value? I really hope I don't have to explain how ridiculous that claim is.

In any case, absurdity of that claim aside, PFF's methodology is garbage and therefore its results are garbage. This is true whether it has 10 uniques or 10 million. Don't believe me? Well, according to PFF Ryan Wendell is a 'secret superstar'. So which is it? Is Ryan Wendell a superstar center--in which case there's no reason for this thread to exist in the first place--or are PFF's rankings clearly wrong?

On the off chance that you want to educate yourself on how terrible of a source PFF is, this is the same outfit that ranked Vince Wilfork as the third worst DT in the entire NFL back in 2012. In 2009, PFF ranked David Garrard ahead of Tom Brady.

In 2010, when Brady won the only unanimous MVP in NFL history, PFF ranked him as the 6th best quarterback in the league, and 33rd best player overall. Behind the likes of Kareem McKenzie, Carl Nicks, Brandon Flowers, Lawrence Timmons, Brandon Lloyd and Jason Witten.

This is yet another instance where you seriously need to educate yourself on a topic before you speak authoritatively about it. Seems to be a consistent issue for you.

The national media and respected members of the NFL community such as Greg Bedard, and many others use PFF; their job is to report on football, they stand face to face with the players, coaches, and interview them, hundreds of thousands, even millions of people, read their words. If they see value in PFF, I will take that endorsement over the word of BradyFTW on Patsfans.com who cannot even reply to a post without sounding like the person at the local truck stop arguing over a dart game.

You need to look at the metrics that are assessed in the ratings, the players you mentioned very well could have struggled in those metrics, it does not mean the player did poorly. If you want to ignore the formula and just focus on the result then I guess I understand why you do not understand.

 

[BradyFTW!]

The national media and respected members of the NFL community such as Greg Bedard, and many others use PFF; their job is to report on football, they stand face to face with the players, coaches, and interview them, hundreds of thousands, even millions of people, read their words. If they see value in PFF, I will take that endorsement over the word of BradyFTW on Patsfans.com who cannot even reply to a post without sounding like the person at the local truck stop arguing over a dart game.

Congrats, now you've covered the appeal to authority fallacy. At this rate, you should hit every logical fallacy in existence in the next twenty posts or so.

You need to look at the metrics that are assessed in the ratings, the players you mentioned very well could have struggled in those metrics, it does not mean the player did poorly. If you want to ignore the formula and just focus on the result then I guess I understand why you do not understand.

You would almost have a point if we were discussing a metric that only evaluated one aspect of the players' rankings, but we're not. The metric in question is the overall PFF ranking. According to PFF, Wilfork was one of the worst overall defensive tackles in the NFL in 2012, and Brady was the sixth best overall quarterback in the NFL (and 33rd best player) when he won his unanimous MVP.

If you're willing to stick with your claim that a model has merit when it's so demonstrably and self-evidently worthless, then that goes a long way to explaining how your opinions can so consistently be so wrong.

If you want to ignore the formula and just focus on the result then I guess I understand why you do not understand

So you're evaluating the formula on its own merits, then, independently of results? Care to explain how you're doing that?

 

[Brady6]

You would almost have a point if we were discussing a metric that only evaluated one aspect of the players' rankings, but we're not. The metric in question is the overall PFF ranking. According to PFF, Wilfork was one of the worst overall defensive tackles in the NFL in 2012, and Brady was the sixth best overall quarterback in the NFL (and 33rd best player) when he won his unanimous MVP.

If you're willing to stick with your claim that a model has merit when it's so demonstrably and self-evidently worthless, then that goes a long way to explaining how your opinions can so consistently be so wrong.

My opinions are so wrong, that is laughable; tell me what I have said that has ever been wrong? Very little and if it has been I am the first to admit it.

Truth be told if you had any self-confidence you would not have to make an insulting remark in every single post that you make, I am not blind to what you are FTW, I tried to be the bigger person I even reached out on PM you ignored me, why because you do not care about getting along. You like confrontation, you like to take shots at people to feel a level of self-worth, I do not enjoy fighting with grown men and women on the internet, so find someone else to annoy, I am done with you, you are nothing but a distant memory to me.

 

[Rob0729]

I am not sure why many feel Connolly would be an upgrade over Wendell, he played even worse than Wendell did last season. They both struggled against the pass rush but at least Wendell was good in the running game, Connolly was poor in both.

Connolly played well at center in 2011, he was 29 years old back then, and his play was significantly overrated, first he only played in 13 games and started 11 games, he graded out middle of the pack on PFF. His cap # is $4M next season, the only sliding I would be doing is he out the door. Connolly’s cap hit would make him the #11 highest paid center in the NFL, so we would have a relatively high priced center.

In 2011, Connolly held down the center position when it was at its most shakiest in terms of health. He was pretty solid there. And I don't need PFF to argue with me because their grading is questionable at best.

And I blame the poor line play in general on the center. Far too often defenders ran by players unblocked. It is the center's responsibility to call out blocking assignments and make adjustments. That is where Wendell failed more than anything else. Many times a missed assignment is on the player that missed it. When it happens on a consistent basis, someone is not calling out the correct blocking assignments.

 

[Rob0729]

The national media and respected members of the NFL community such as Greg Bedard, and many others use PFF; their job is to report on football, they stand face to face with the players, coaches, and interview them, hundreds of thousands, even millions of people, read their words. If they see value in PFF, I will take that endorsement over the word of BradyFTW on Patsfans.com who cannot even reply to a post without sounding like the person at the local truck stop arguing over a dart game.

You need to look at the metrics that are assessed in the ratings, the players you mentioned very well could have struggled in those metrics, it does not mean the player did poorly. If you want to ignore the formula and just focus on the result then I guess I understand why you do not understand.

Who cares who uses PFF? We have blown away so many their stats on this board on this board that it isn't funny. They use people frequent vistors to their site to sit in front of the National TV broadcast and compile stats. Their data collection methods are suspect. And if the data is not collected correctly, then how can you trust anything they produce?

And media members quote it because they provide a lot of "quality" stats on individual players that no other quality stat service provides. And the media eats it up because of it because it makes it easier to write stories. And let's face it, many media members know less about the sport of football than half the posters on this board.

 

[Brady6]

Who cares who uses PFF? We have blown away so many their stats on this board on this board that it isn't funny. They use people frequent vistors to their site to sit in front of the National TV broadcast and compile stats. Their data collection methods are suspect. And if the data is not collected correctly, then how can you trust anything they produce?

And media members quote it because they provide a lot of "quality" stats on individual players that no other quality stat service provides. And the media eats it up because of it because it makes it easier to write stories. And let's face it, many media members know less about the sport of football than half the posters on this board.

The biggest failure a person can make is ignoring data, in my opinion everything plays I do not rule out any metric or rating. Any stat including what you allege to be quality have inaccuracies.

 

[Rob0729]

The biggest failure a person can make is ignoring data, in my opinion everything plays I do not rule out any metric or rating. Any stat including what you allege to be quality have inaccuracies.

No. The biggest failure a person can make is relying on data that is collected inaccurately. Misleading data is worse than no data at all. I will take the eyeball test over inaccurate data at any time.

Besides, data in the NFL is useless for a lot of positions especially o-line. If a defender runs through two offensive linemen untouched, who gets credit for the screw up? The data collector has no idea who was actually responsible for that player and might assign the blame to the wrong player. IMHO, there is no realistic way to quantify the quality of an o-lineman based on stats especially stats that are very subjective even if they are collected correctly which I doubt with PFF.

I guarantee you that Belichick and most other coaches and GMs don't even pay attention to PFF or even more respected services like Football Outsiders.

 

[Brady6]

No. The biggest failure a person can make is relying on data that is collected inaccurately. Misleading data is worse than no data at all. I will take the eyeball test over inaccurate data at any time.

Besides, data in the NFL is useless for a lot of positions especially o-line. If a defender runs through two offensive linemen untouched, who gets credit for the screw up? The data collector has no idea who was actually responsible for that player and might assign the blame to the wrong player. IMHO, there is no realistic way to quantify the quality of an o-lineman based on stats especially stats that are very subjective even if they are collected correctly which I doubt with PFF.

I guarantee you that Belichick and most other coaches and GMs don't even pay attention to PFF or even more respected services like Football Outsiders.

First, I did not rely only on PFF I provided other information. Second, you tell me aside from posting film a better way to assess an offensive lineman than PFF rankings; they do not exactly have many stats associated with them.