Willie McGinest on what ails the Pats

[Ring 6]

Yes, its game specific.

In virtually every loss this season the pass defense sheet the bed: Balt x 2, Seattle and S.F. Its also worthy to note that all those teams are playoff teams and 2 are in the Super Bowl. Houston and Indy were pretenders, but Seattle, SF and Balt were all legitimate Super Bowl players.

When the Pats face a good team, look out if Brady doesnt produce fantasy numbers.

Other than because it would help your argument, how is Seattle a SB contender and Houston phony?

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

Other than because it would help your argument, how is Seattle a SB contender and Houston phony?

Schaub looks the part of a phony to me. If I were to choose between Luck, Wilson, Kaepernick, Schaub and Flacco, Schaub is picked last for sure.

Wasn't my argument to begin with though.

 

[Triumph]

McCourty isn't a weak link.

He most definitely is.

Some folks here dont want top admit that because it woold mean that BB whiffed on another high round DB. McCourty is following Merriweathers carreer path. Meri was drafted to play CB, but couldnt cut it and had to be moved just like McCourty.

If Ed Reed comes to NE and is able to stay healthy you will see an immediate difference in the NE defense and secondary. Reed can cover and play run support.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Oh you mean like when McGinest was traded for making waves?
Oh perhaps you mean Branch...
Was it Asante..?
Moss..?


Don't be an idiot. The difference has nothing to do with coaching. It's talent and the mentality of the players. As good as McCourty is in coverage, no one fears him like opponents feared Harrison.

The dynasty years we had a plethora of leaders, mentally tough guys who played smart, fundamental football, didn't have break downs in coverage and could pass rush from anywhere in the front 7. We had Seymour, Bruschi, Harrison, Law, Vrable, and so on and so on. Right now all we have now in that mold is Mayo and Wilfork. Chandler, Spikes, Hightower, McCourty all look like they are on the right path but they're still 5 years away from being veterans.

Our youth is an issue beacuse of inexperience, mental toughness and physical toughness. Not because they don't stand up to Bill and tell our HOF coach which plays to call.

Reading comprehension is apparently truly an art form. Willie was let go because his skills were erroding as RAC soon found out and because he was not interested in taking any more haircuts to play out the string.

I'm talking about defense. Bruschi and Vrabel used to go to Bill regularly and hash out how the players felt the scheme was working or not working. Bill listened to them and while he didn't always agree he took their criticism and insight into account. I'm sure he has a similar relationship with Brady. These guys all had the self confidence to speak up (behind closed doors) if they felt something wasn't working. That's not bucking the coach (as AD did). They deferred to him if he didn't feel their input justified changing anything.

The youngsters now populating the roster don't have that stature or confidence or any role models with it in the locker room or on the field with them. They haven't been allowed to play to their instincts much, as Rodney and Bruschi and Vrabel and others were back in the day. We saw a brief snapshot of it late in the season, but then in the playoffs Bill pulled back. Bill has to learn to trust some of the youngsters or replace them with guys he does. If Ed Reed actually does sign on here, while he will publicly defer to Bill you can bet there will be lots of talk behind closed doors about how they will approach secondary play here based on Ed's years of directing Baltimore's DB's.

Some of the talent that retired here and most of the talent that didn't believed that while the scheme helped them achieve their goals their talent helped the scheme achieve its goals. It's a shame Bill didn't begin his transition sooner as what this team lacks in particular on defense is veteran leadership and presence. Coaches can only provide so much of that, eventually players begin to tune coaching out. I watched the faces of the guys Bill was coaching up continuously on the sideline in the second half and too many of them had that eyes glazed over look of being fried. Players need to experience it coming from their peers. Guys with some level of cache who have been there and done that and know when to administer a beat down and when to emotionally lift those around them up. That is what Willie was saying and he was dead on.

The core is what pulls teams through when the going gets tough. Bill won't instill swagger in any of these kids, he doesn't even acknowledge such a thing exists. Bill is here to beat them up on Monday in film session and correct mistakes. They need some mentoring to teach them how to absorb that without losing self confidence in the process when the scheme hits a bump in the road. I think there are playmakers on this defense, but they don't trust their own ability to make plays consistently because they are so thoroughly conditioned to be risk adverse and not make the costly mistake that they can't play to their instincts. What happens then is they play tight and make mistakes that in the end still cost the team.

Talib's presence here is a classic example. That confidence more than his individual play which was good but not exceptional instilled a level of comfort in a beleagured secondary that suddenly played well. The instant he left that game all the sphincters tightened because there was no one else around to tell them I got this, we got this. Brady often does that on offense. In the game against Houston they showed him on the bench shortly after Gronk left the field. He was saying to whomever was milling around..."we're ok, we got this". Against Baltimore I don't think any of them believed they were OK almost out of the gate. Belichick had convinced them that this matchup was problematic from the get go, and once they hit the first couple of bumps in the road they played as if they were convinced.

It's hard to locate veteran players who are affordable yet have enough gas left in the tank to lead on the field. But Bill would be well served to find a couple to add to this defense before next season. He's gone from too old to too young too quickly. If Gronk had been healthy and on the field and if Hernandez had been playing along side him the way he did in 2011, they might have prevailed anyway. But assuming there won't be voids to be dealt with that as Bedard stated basically tied one hand behind Brady's back is folly, this team is still going to need a defense it can count on because there is no guarantee this offense can simply carry the day. Especially if it loses Welker.

 

[IllegalContact]

Having Talib go down changed the entire complexion of the game. The Patriots didn't need Ed Reed. The Patriots needed their CB1 to be on the field instead of on the sidelines.

not sure what talib has to do with the offense only putting up 13

13 would not have won the game if they had every defender under contract healthy for this game

 

[IllegalContact]

it wasn't just the players......with weis, crennel, mangini, mcdaniel all there as assistants, making adjustments at halftime and preparing for the same opponent again was a dream for this staff.....there is no way you can tell me that the current staff has the capacity to do that.......patricia? please

why is it only in the past 13 months are we seeing old names resurface on the staff? putting the players in the best position to win a game includes providing the staff that is capable of doing that.

Reading comprehension is apparently truly an art form. Willie was let go because his skills were erroding as RAC soon found out and because he was not interested in taking any more haircuts to play out the string.

I'm talking about defense. Bruschi and Vrabel used to go to Bill regularly and hash out how the players felt the scheme was working or not working. Bill listened to them and while he didn't always agree he took their criticism and insight into account. I'm sure he has a similar relationship with Brady. These guys all had the self confidence to speak up (behind closed doors) if they felt something wasn't working. That's not bucking the coach (as AD did). They deferred to him if he didn't feel their input justified changing anything.

The youngsters now populating the roster don't have that stature or confidence or any role models with it in the locker room or on the field with them. They haven't been allowed to play to their instincts much, as Rodney and Bruschi and Vrabel and others were back in the day. We saw a brief snapshot of it late in the season, but then in the playoffs Bill pulled back. Bill has to learn to trust some of the youngsters or replace them with guys he does. If Ed Reed actually does sign on here, while he will publicly defer to Bill you can bet there will be lots of talk behind closed doors about how they will approach secondary play here based on Ed's years of directing Baltimore's DB's.

Some of the talent that retired here and most of the talent that didn't believed that while the scheme helped them achieve their goals their talent helped the scheme achieve its goals. It's a shame Bill didn't begin his transition sooner as what this team lacks in particular on defense is veteran leadership and presence. Coaches can only provide so much of that, eventually players begin to tune coaching out. I watched the faces of the guys Bill was coaching up continuously on the sideline in the second half and too many of them had that eyes glazed over look of being fried. Players need to experience it coming from their peers. Guys with some level of cache who have been there and done that and know when to administer a beat down and when to emotionally lift those around them up. That is what Willie was saying and he was dead on.

The core is what pulls teams through when the going gets tough. Bill won't instill swagger in any of these kids, he doesn't even acknowledge such a thing exists. Bill is here to beat them up on Monday in film session and correct mistakes. They need some mentoring to teach them how to absorb that without losing self confidence in the process when the scheme hits a bump in the road. I think there are playmakers on this defense, but they don't trust their own ability to make plays consistently because they are so thoroughly conditioned to be risk adverse and not make the costly mistake that they can't play to their instincts. What happens then is they play tight and make mistakes that in the end still cost the team.

Talib's presence here is a classic example. That confidence more than his individual play which was good but not exceptional instilled a level of comfort in a beleagured secondary that suddenly played well. The instant he left that game all the sphincters tightened because there was no one else around to tell them I got this, we got this. Brady often does that on offense. In the game against Houston they showed him on the bench shortly after Gronk left the field. He was saying to whomever was milling around..."we're ok, we got this". Against Baltimore I don't think any of them believed they were OK almost out of the gate. Belichick had convinced them that this matchup was problematic from the get go, and once they hit the first couple of bumps in the road they played as if they were convinced.

It's hard to locate veteran players who are affordable yet have enough gas left in the tank to lead on the field. But Bill would be well served to find a couple to add to this defense before next season. He's gone from too old to too young too quickly. If Gronk had been healthy and on the field and if Hernandez had been playing along side him the way he did in 2011, they might have prevailed anyway. But assuming there won't be voids to be dealt with that as Bedard stated basically tied one hand behind Brady's back is folly, this team is still going to need a defense it can count on because there is no guarantee this offense can simply carry the day. Especially if it loses Welker.

 

[JackBauer]

He most definitely is.

Some folks here dont want top admit that because it woold mean that BB whiffed on another high round DB. McCourty is following Merriweathers carreer path. Meri was drafted to play CB, but couldnt cut it and had to be moved just like McCourty.

If Ed Reed comes to NE and is able to stay healthy you will see an immediate difference in the NE defense and secondary. Reed can cover and play run support.

I have to give you credit for writing this much and having pretty much everything be completely wrong.

McCourty and Meriweather are almost nothing alike.

If Ed Reed comes to NE, he will supplant Gregory. Reed and McCourty will be the starters.

Seriously, when you're at odds with probably 90 percent of posters on this board, not to mention every single sports writer I've read who's written on the topic, a thinking person would take that as a sign to reevaluate their position.

 

[Ivan]

I think Belichick needs to show more confidence in his defense by going for it when they get inside the 40. I really don't like the punts from the 38 that gain them 18 yards while sacrificing the opportunity for points. If it's 4th and 12 that's one thing but when it is 4th and 3 and they punt they both give up the chance to put their opponent in the hole and send the message that they don't have confidence in the D to stop a 60+ yard drive.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

it wasn't just the players......with weis, crennel, mangini, mcdaniel all there as assistants, making adjustments at halftime and preparing for the same opponent again was a dream for this staff.....there is no way you can tell me that the current staff has the capacity to do that.......patricia? please

why is it only in the past 13 months are we seeing old names resurface on the staff? putting the players in the best position to win a game includes providing the staff that is capable of doing that.

I'm not so sure. I think Charlie and RAC (in particular) brought more overt emotion to their jobs and that somewhat balanced out for Belichick. Mangini may have brought more push back, although he seldom won those battles and players didn't respond to him (as a DC or HC). He did make Belichick think. At the end of the day I don't believe RAC or Charlie would have accomplish a heck of a lot more with the post 2004 teams than the coaches who had them did. Heck, Pees is DCing another superbowl...and everyone and his brother wanted to blame him for the 2007-2009 failures. BOB got his offense farther than Josh did and he was fronting an even skechier defense and grappling with less talent/weapons and more injuries. It was aging talent and lack of talent and poor execution and injury, not coaching that did those teams in. And I believe that has led to a situation where Bill also isn't present on the sidelines for this team. His entire focus is on coaching up a less than ideally talented defense. In XXXVI he called the play on which Brady threw his only TD. It was an adjustment to the play in the game plan based on his observation as to why that had just failed. I think he believes Josh is more gifted than Charlie, and while he may well be that hasn't paid dividends when opportunity knocks. Maybe that is why Daboll has been brought in, to simply serve as another set of eyes on the offense. Unfortunately early returns would indicate if that was the case it didn't seem to pan out.

They simply lack the horses particularly in the face of injury to get over the hump when the chips are down. They need more talent and more veteran leadership on the field. Absent that all the adjustments in the world won't work.

 

[Triumph]

I have to give you credit for writing this much and having pretty much everything be completely wrong.

So whats wrong?

Why dont you provide facts that prove me wrong? Youre one of the biggest supporters of NE players that eventually turn out to be busts, so this is nothing new from your camp.

Heres a question for you. Why doesnt McCourty have a new contract? Hernandez and Gronk both got new deals and all 3 are from the same draft with McCourty being the 1st round pick. Since you think McCourty is so good, shouldnt the Pats lock him up with another deal? Why do him like your other binky Chung who will be hitting the unemployment line in the near future?

McCourty and Meriweather are almost nothing alike.

But they are for the reasons I stated.

If Ed Reed comes to NE, he will supplant Gregory. Reed and McCourty will be the starters.

Reed will definitely start and McCourty will have to earn his job. More than likely Wilson wont he head and shoulders above McCourty so he will get the nod.

Seriously, when you're at odds with probably 90 percent of posters on this board, not to mention every single sports writer I've read who's written on the topic, a thinking person would take that as a sign to reevaluate their position.

I call it the way it is.

The sports writers are wrong and the pass defense didnt improve until Talib landed here and Dennard took the other CB spot. The Pats spent more draft picks on the CB position with Talib because what they had wasnt good enough. You dont keep bringing in players if eveything is hunky dory at a position.

The pass defense still inst good enough and thats why NE needs to go after Reed. McCourty doesnt strike fear in any team. You might think so, but I choose to live in reality.

 

[DocHoliday]

He most definitely is.

Some folks here dont want top admit that because it woold mean that BB whiffed on another high round DB. McCourty is following Merriweathers carreer path. Meri was drafted to play CB, but couldnt cut it and had to be moved just like McCourty.

If Ed Reed comes to NE and is able to stay healthy you will see an immediate difference in the NE defense and secondary. Reed can cover and play run support.

Brandon Merriweather was not drafted to be a cornerback. The guy is a prototypical SS.

 

[Deus Irae]

He most definitely is.

Some folks here dont want top admit that because it woold mean that BB whiffed on another high round DB.

Yeah, that's my problem. As someone who's been bashing BB's drafts for years, and who spent weeks this year talking about how bad McCourty was doing at corner, it's all about being worried that McCourty's a whiff and being afraid to admit it.

It's like you're trying to be wrong about everything you post.

 

[JackBauer]

So whats wrong?

Everything.

Why dont you provide facts that prove me wrong? Youre one of the biggest supporters of NE players that eventually turn out to be busts, so this is nothing new from your camp.

No, I don't think so. How about this: since you're the one making the assertion (that McCourty sucks), why don't you provide the evidence to make your case. The onus isn't on me here.

Heres a question for you. Why doesnt McCourty have a new contract? Hernandez and Gronk both got new deals and all 3 are from the same draft with McCourty being the 1st round pick. Since you think McCourty is so good, shouldnt the Pats lock him up with another deal? Why do him like your other binky Chung who will be hitting the unemployment line in the near future?

Seriously, are you just gish galloping here? Since when was Chung my binky?

How many Patriots players got new deal before their rookie contract(s) expired? Is it your postulation that in the post-Gronk/Hernandez era the only way we can divine the FO's positive assessment of a player is if they get a new deal before their existing contract is up?

In reality, the answer to your question is so simple it's hard to believe (well, no, it actually isn't) you didn't know the answer when you typed it: Gronk and Hernandez were obviously on elite trajectories and the FO did the smart thing and re-upped them (so they could keep both) before they became prohibitively expensive.

But they are for the reasons I stated.

You didn't state any reasons. You stated one "reason" which smacks eerily of something you just pulled out of your ass. Given that, please substantiate your assertion that BM was drafted to play cornerback.

Reed will definitely start and McCourty will have to earn his job. More than likely Wilson wont he head and shoulders above McCourty so he will get the nod.

No. If Reed is signed and all other things remain equal, McCourty will sleepwalk into the other starting position. The only way this changes is if Wilson makes strides and the FO decides they want to move him back to CB (a bad idea in my estimation).

I call it the way it is.

No. You call it the way you think it is, and given our past interactions, as you well know, what you think and reality coincide roughly 25 percent of the time, at best.

The sports writers are wrong and the pass defense didnt improve until Talib landed here and Dennard took the other CB spot. The Pats spent more draft picks on the CB position with Talib because what they had wasnt good enough. You dont keep bringing in players if eveything is hunky dory at a position.

No. The improvement in pass defense was both a result of Talib taking the starting cornerback spot and McCourty stepping in and putting out the dumpster fire at safety (as well as Dennard's ascension). The fact that you are unable/unwilling to recognize this beggars belief.

The pass defense still inst good enough and thats why NE needs to go after Reed. McCourty doesnt strike fear in any team.

The reason the pass defense isn't good enough is because there is still a gaping hole in the form of one Steve Gregory, and also there's a need for more depth at CB (which would be mitigated if Ras-I could stay healthy). It has absolutely nothing to do with McCourty.

You might think so, but I choose to live in reality.

LOL. I know this isn't the political forum but...really? Really?

 

[tonyto3690]

McCourty was Statistically elite at cb. People just assume he's doing better at safety because the mistakes aren't nearly as obvious. Not even revis goes unbeat forever. People just like to pretend he does and hold McCourty up to that ridiculous standard.

McCourty was playing at an elite level at both cb and s. the other thing is safety talent across the league (and on the patriots especially) is so laughably bad that he looks that much better compared to the weak competition of his peers.

 

[tonyto3690]

He most definitely is.

Some folks here dont want top admit that because it woold mean that BB whiffed on another high round DB. McCourty is following Merriweathers carreer path. Meri was drafted to play CB, but couldnt cut it and had to be moved just like McCourty.

If Ed Reed comes to NE and is able to stay healthy you will see an immediate difference in the NE defense and secondary. Reed can cover and play run support.

The fact you do not even know the position of a recent first round pick is all the argument I need.