Willie McGinest on what ails the Pats

[borg]

How many times has a he had the ball in his hands to either tie or win a playoff game and failed? 2006, 2007, 2010 (the drive to nowhere was that game in a microcosm), and 2011 come to mind. During the 2012 regular season, we lost to Baltimore the first time after blowing a lead and not being able to get point with the ball in hand and 4 mins left.
Maybe I am too hard on him…but I feel like the GOAT needs to come through when these situations arise.

82 offensive plays...13 points

 

[Triumph]

Having Talib go down changed the entire complexion of the game. The Patriots didn't need Ed Reed. The Patriots needed their CB1 to be on the field instead of on the sidelines.

Talib isnt Revis and he can only do so much covering 1 WR.

Would the Pats have stood a better chance with him? Probably yes, but there are other weak links like Arrington, McCourty and Gregory out there as well.

The Pats need Ed Reed or someone like him because the NE Safety position sux.

 

[Triumph]

The D was what the 2nd youngest in the league, not many guys are 'leaders' when they are young.

Assuming Dennard doesnt regress, hes definitely a step in the right direction.

 

[BSR]

82 offensive plays...13 points

Once upon a time the Patriots won a superbowl averaging 13 offensive points a game in the playoffs. True story.

 

[Deus Irae]

Talib isnt Revis and he can only do so much covering 1 WR.

Would the Pats have stood a better chance with him? Probably yes, but there are other weak links like Arrington, McCourty and Gregory out there as well.

The Pats need Ed Reed or someone like him because the NE Safety position sux.

Silly post, given that it was one WR and 1 TE that did the damage against the Patriots, and that one WR was the one Talib was covering before he got hurt. Arrington isn't a CB1 or CB2, but he's an adequate CB3 and a fine CB4.

McCourty, while still learning the position and not being perfect, is not a weak link at safety, either, so I don't know what the hell football games you're watching.

 

[Triumph]

We saw the game change as the Patriots were no longer able to cover Boldin once Talib was out. It took time for the Ravens to exploit it, but it was an obvious adjustment. It was pretty cut and dried, IMO, but I think you may be thinking that I was raising a bigger point than I was. My point was game specific. I don't think there's one specific thing that ails the Patriots. I think multiple smaller things combine to become huge at some point in the playoffs.

Yes, its game specific.

In virtually every loss this season the pass defense sheet the bed: Balt x 2, Seattle and S.F. Its also worthy to note that all those teams are playoff teams and 2 are in the Super Bowl. Houston and Indy were pretenders, but Seattle, SF and Balt were all legitimate Super Bowl players.

When the Pats face a good team, look out if Brady doesnt produce fantasy numbers.

 

[Triumph]

Silly post, given that it was one WR and 1 TE that did the damage against the Patriots, and that one WR was the one Talib was covering before he got hurt. Arrington isn't a CB1 or CB2, but he's an adequate CB3 and a fine CB4.

You fail.

Smith 4 rec for 69 yards. Evidently 17 yards per reception isnt doing damage.
Pitta 5 rec for 55 yards 1 TD
Boldin 5 rec for 60 yards 2 TD

McCourty, while still learning the position and not being perfect, is not a weak link at safety, either, so I don't know what the hell football games you're watching.

Youre delusional.

The Pats wont give McCourty a new contract in the offseason. They will wait to see him play in 2013 just like they did with Chung in 2012 before they commit their cap dollars. Look for NE to draft a Safety as well.

 

[JackBauer]

Talib isnt Revis and he can only do so much covering 1 WR.

Would the Pats have stood a better chance with him? Probably yes, but there are other weak links like Arrington, McCourty and Gregory out there as well.

The Pats need Ed Reed or someone like him because the NE Safety position sux.

McCourty isn't a weak link.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

If you look at what the pass defense was last year, just list some of the names we had getting snaps, it's hard to picture fixing that in one year. I think we took great strides this season in the right direction. When Talib went down, no doubt it looked bad but I still have faith that one more good offseason/draft will get us where we need to be. And if Talib actually did stay healthy who knows.

The front 7 as always has room for improvement but I believe it's about ready, especially with guys like Jones/Hightower/Spikes one year smarter and up to speed.

 

[Deus Irae]

You fail.

Smith 4 rec for 69 yards. Evidently 17 yards per reception isnt doing damage.
Pitta 5 rec for 55 yards 1 TD
Boldin 5 rec for 60 yards 2 TD

4 catches for 69 yards and 0 TDs after Talib went down isn't doing much damage, no, particularly in context:

25 yards with Arrington covering
5 yards with Cole covering
23 yards deep right
15 yards with Arrington covering

What do we see? At least three of the four catches were with coverage by the Talib replacement. Also, as I pointed out, and the numbers confirm, the real damage was done by Boldin and Pitta: 10 catches for 115 yards and 3 TDs.

Youre delusional.

The Pats wont give McCourty a new contract in the offseason. They will wait to see him play in 2013 just like they did with Chung in 2012 before they commit their cap dollars. Look for NE to draft a Safety as well.

You calling anyone else delusional is ironic. As for McCourty, he has work to do, but he was nowhere near the liability you're trying to make him out to be.

Also, I expect the Patriots to draft a safety. I want them to draft a safety in the first round. Gregory is not a starting caliber safety in the NFL, and he needs to be replaced. It's a safety rich draft, and I'd like to see the Patriots take one of the best.

 

[DaBronxPats14]

Assuming Dennard doesnt regress, hes definitely a step in the right direction.

Agreed along with lockin up Talib and adding Reed short term and another quality FA DB makes it 100% better.

 

[DarrylStingley]

I respectfully disagree with Willie because I think the offense lost that game and is what hurt them the most in the SB losses.

Against Baltimore, Talib went down and the Pats D still only allowed 7 points in the first half. It was still at 7 in the mid-3rd Q. The dam finally broke, but it was AFTER the offense continually stalled while in Ravens territory.

It bears em[phasis that the Pats crossed the Ravens 50 6 out of the first 7 drives and 8 out of 12 in that game. They should have had at least 20 points at half time and should have ended up with more than 30.

If the offense does their job, the Pats win that game.

With that D.

 

[tonyto3690]

I like Willie and he has a point. But many of those guys were still here in 2007 and it didn't do the trick.

I think part of the problem since then is this has become a young team where guys can't stand up to Bill, let alone opponent. On a veteran team Bill often listened to his core defensive players. And they weren't shy about approaching or challenging him. I doubt any of these guys are at a point yet where they can walk over to him and say jeezus Bill, wtf... They've been conditioned to do as they are told. The captains are supposed to handle that kind of back and forth. Ours are the jovial Vince Wilfork, Bill's adopted son Jerrod and the younger McCourty twin who is now classified as a DB.

Oh you mean like when McGinest was traded for making waves?
Oh perhaps you mean Branch...
Was it Asante..?
Moss..?


Don't be an idiot. The difference has nothing to do with coaching. It's talent and the mentality of the players. As good as McCourty is in coverage, no one fears him like opponents feared Harrison.

The dynasty years we had a plethora of leaders, mentally tough guys who played smart, fundamental football, didn't have break downs in coverage and could pass rush from anywhere in the front 7. We had Seymour, Bruschi, Harrison, Law, Vrable, and so on and so on. Right now all we have now in that mold is Mayo and Wilfork. Chandler, Spikes, Hightower, McCourty all look like they are on the right path but they're still 5 years away from being veterans.

Our youth is an issue beacuse of inexperience, mental toughness and physical toughness. Not because they don't stand up to Bill and tell our HOF coach which plays to call.

 

[Observer]

I have to go with blame the offense on this one. 13 points and multiple turnovers are too much to overcome when playing a playoff game against a solid team. In this very forum, we have said on multiple occasions that when the offense or Brady has an off-day, others need to pick up the slack. Well, against the Ravens, Talib and the defense had an off-day but where was the offense to pick up the slack, especially as we keep believing that offense is our strong point.

 

[Fencer]

I don't think it's toughness as a character trait so much as being worried enough about succeeding at their roles, with the worry being due to some combination of experience & talent.

Also, I think there's a notion of "saving" a big play for when you need it. If you're a guy who sets up the opponent with your moves -- e.g. a WR or pass rusher -- you can try to cash in in a critical situation. But I suspect that's more under the individual player's control in defensive situations than in offensive ones, because on offense play calls dictate what happens more precisely than defensive calls do.

I also suspected Willie of just saving his burst for big situations. Athletes in various sports play a little harder at key times -- perhaps excusably if they lack the stamina to play that well 100% of the time -- and Willie seemed like one of them in the latter part of his career, perhaps in connection w/ better managing his injury problems.

 

[ivanvamp]

Having Talib go down changed the entire complexion of the game. The Patriots didn't need Ed Reed. The Patriots needed their CB1 to be on the field instead of on the sidelines.

I do think that, in the end, losing Talib cost the Patriots dearly. But that wasn't so evident until the 3rd quarter. Here are the Ravens' drives after Talib went down:

4 plays, 14 yds, punt
13 plays, 90 yds, TD
3 plays, 0 yds, punt
6 plays, 25 yds, punt

Then the floodgates opened. But for 3 of the 4 drives following Talib's injury, the Ravens went nowhere. Yes, they had the one long TD drive of course. But for the most part, the Pats stoned the Ravens until all hell broke loose.

So yeah, ultimately it caught up with them big-time, but not right away. With 7 minutes to go in the 3rd, the score was 13-7, Pats.

 

[ausbacker]

I'll never argue against more talent on D, more depth on D and the need to play like intimidators who crush their enemies on D.

I've said it for far too long now. The Patriots D play far too much like nice guys. Take the odd penalty to crush a player and put some fear out there again. Reputation is everything.

Most teams are mentally beaten before the game against the Patriots. Teams like the Ravens and Giants are not.

 

[DocHoliday]

I'll never argue against more talent on D, more depth on D and the need to play like intimidators who crush their enemies on D.

I've said it for far too long now. The Patriots D play far too much like nice guys. Take the odd penalty to crush a player and put some fear out there again. Reputation is everything.

Most teams are mentally beaten before the game against the Patriots. Teams like the Ravens and Giants are not.

Nothing annoyed me more than the Giants mouthing off before the SB - telling the media that they'd cut the head off the beast - and them proceeding to stop the vaunted O once again.

 

[condon84]

I've said it for far too long now. The Patriots D play far too much like nice guys. Take the odd penalty to crush a player and put some fear out there again. Reputation is everything.

I also think the philosophy of our read and react defense has a lot to do with this. Instead of pushing the action and letting our defensive guys be aggressive, they're just sitting back and letting the offense dictate the action.

 

[Ring 6]

I also think the philosophy of our read and react defense has a lot to do with this. Instead of pushing the action and letting our defensive guys be aggressive, they're just sitting back and letting the offense dictate the action.

Thats not really true though.
First of all, read and react regards run defense. Being responsbile for the gap on either side of your blocker rather than one side or the other is not sitting back and letting the offense dictate the action. It is simply sacrificing the rare play where you beat the block and make a 3 yard loss in order to not have a gaping hole when you get blocked out of your gap.
In pass defense most teams play a lot of zone. Zone doesn't mean run backwards and let them catch the pass. It means rather than 1 man whereever he goes, you are responsible for covering whatever man comes to a specified area of the field.
A defender playing zone is expected to cover the guy who comes into his zone just as closely as the man he would be convering in man.

The only way the defense dictates is to sell out on an all out blitz that makes the QB throw to early if you get there but exposes you to a big play if you dont and'or you get beat in man coverage.