Will LB be a "need" in the off-season?

[patsox23]

My argument is simple. They do not draft 1st day linebackers. Every other team does.

WRONG. They "have not" drafted 1st day linebackers. We used to say "they do not draft 1st round interior linemen," too. How'd that work out, Mankins?

The Patriots don't HAVE one specific philosophy that they hold to, outside of looking for value (which may affect certain positions more than others) and trying to improve the football team the best they can.

I understand your bottom-lineness re: "well, they haven't so they don't," but my point was, and is, that given they DO have those guys high on their draft board, it seems that they don't rule it out completely as you have. They've also never had - at the time of the draft - as dire a need to get young at the position as they will next April with Bruschi and Seau likely hanging 'em up.

 

[FrontSeven]

The only other option is a walking Cryogenics program for Bru and Seau.

What about those pressure chambers or whatever they are? I think they must be living in one.

One would imagine that they walk away if they win a trophy this year, but I'm not so sure. Junior is still plenty quick through a hole, and Tedy is still very smart. I just don't know. Maybe they're gone, but I don't know. I could see them both returning.

 

[patsfan209]

If Bruschi and Seau retire, where do the replacements come from? Alexander?

Mostly likely another veteran LB from another team IMO. It seems to always go that way when BB needs an ILB or an OLB.

If Alexander has been coached up to replace a starter, why couldn't a more talented linebacker have been drafted and now be ready?

There's nothing about a F.A. that makes you smarter or more experienced than a draft pick.

This is just my educated guess on what has happened so far... but I think BB just doesn't have the patience to develop and train a LB. Its seems apparent since he got here and they way he drafted them and see how they all ended up.

It is ununsual that BB does have patience and leeway with the other areas of the defense.

Until the day he finally and really drafts a LB in the 1st round or on the 1st day of the draft, I am convinced he just has strict preferences for LBs.

 

[patsox23]

Its seems apparent since he got here and they way he drafted them and see how they all ended up.

It is ununsual that BB does have patience and leeway with the other areas of the defense.

Until the day he finally and really drafts a LB in the 1st round or on the 1st day of the draft, I am convinced he just has strict preferences for LBs.

I know Ray Clay and others will pound me for this, but the fact remains that the Patriots have had college LBs on their 1st round draft board and that it just hasn't worked out, for various reasons. Not saying he WILL draft a LB, just that he hasn't so far, just as he hadn't drafted an OG until Mankins a couple years back.

 

[patsfan209]

I know Ray Clay and others will pound me for this, but the fact remains that the Patriots have had college LBs on their 1st round draft board and that it just hasn't worked out, for various reasons.

Part of what convinced me that BB is unlikely to draft high on LB was back in the 2003 draft when the Patriots had a chance to select Boss Bailey (who was a noted blue-chipper at the time) in the 1st round... twice... and the Pats passed on him both times. (Note what Bailey is doing now is not the issue of this discussion as I'm just pointing out that maybe Boss was indeed on the Pats board, but still perhaps BB's high standards prevailed over Pioli's if he liked Bailey.)

Not saying he WILL draft a LB, just that he hasn't so far, just as he hadn't drafted an OG until Mankins a couple years back.

You would probably have better luck saying BB loves drafting linemen on both sides of the ball, since it seems (last I checked) 55% of his Pats drafts picks, he always stocks up the trenches.

 

[patsox23]

Boss Bailey was not AT ALL the prototypical sized-up LB for this 3-4. That doesn't tell us much of anything, IMO. We'll see what happens come April, though.

 

[patsfan209]

Boss Bailey was not AT ALL the prototypical sized-up LB for this 3-4. That doesn't tell us much of anything, IMO. We'll see what happens come April, though.

patsox23 sorry to rag on you, but I'm with RayClay and others in saying your claim that "LBs were indeed on their draft board on Day 1, its just they didn't pick them" didn't carry much weight either. BB has proven me, Ray Clay & others correct so far.

As for Bailey, he was projected to be a Patriot on a couple of mock drafts and of course in 2003 (and every year it seems) LB needs to get younger. But again, its hindsight now.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if the Pats had a chance at "The Little Road Warrior" in the 1st round, and pass on him.

 

[patsox23]

I understand the bottom line, guys - that BB didn't ultimately draft a LB - but can you please speak to why on EARTH they brought in Sims, Beason, Barnett, Bradie James, DJ Williams, Vilma, etc... for visits and bothered putting them on a 1st round draft board???? (At least Williams and Vilma since that is absolutely documented.)

 

[BradyToMoss]

Typically BB likes to sign UFA LB's because they come in already seasoned and he likes to find guys that he knows will fit into his system. I think this year, he'll change that philosophy and he'll draft Laurinaitus from OSU, this kid will step right and be a stud from the get go.

My fear right now is losing Asante, he's long gone, we'll never pay him the money he's looking for, so with that said, I'm wondering if BB would look for a CB with that top 7 pick, but looking at all the mocks right now, the top corners are all in the 10-20 window, so BB may just trade down, and grab the corner.

 

[PATSNUTme]

The trouble is that it seems to be getting harder and harder to get ILB's,either in the draft or FA, that can play in our 3-4 base.

With all the good young DL's that we have, don't be surprised to see 4-3 in the future. We have already seen more this year than in the past.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I understand the bottom line, guys - that BB didn't ultimately draft a LB - but can you please speak to why on EARTH they brought in Sims, Beason, Barnett, Bradie James, DJ Williams, Vilma, etc... for visits and bothered putting them on a 1st round draft board???? (At least Williams and Vilma since that is absolutely documented.)

It's called "scouting" man. You look at everyone who could be available in the draft. It's pretty obvious they didn't like those guys enough to draft them. The Pats look at QBs each year too. But how many have they drafted high?

I don't think the Patriots are AGAINST taking linebackers, just that they don't seem to value them as highly as other teams. So often, the perceived "value" in their eyes doesn't match the player. So they end up drafting another position that they perceive is more valuable. I'm sure much of this has to do with BB's preference for veteran linebackers. And another part is simply draft position and who drops to the Patriots drafting slot which over the years has usually been in the late 20's to 30's.

I think this philosophy might make it even more difficult for the Pats to consider taking a linebacker in the top 2-5 picks in 2008. If they had a mid round draft pick, it might have been possible. Now, I think it makes it even more improbable.

 

[RayClay]

I know Ray Clay and others will pound me for this, but the fact remains that the Patriots have had college LBs on their 1st round draft board and that it just hasn't worked out, for various reasons. Not saying he WILL draft a LB, just that he hasn't so far, just as he hadn't drafted an OG until Mankins a couple years back.

I think we basically agree they need youth at LB. I'm just frustrated that they never have anything but scrubs as backups. That doesn't mean I don't like Woods, for instance or any F.A., but it seems they would have one draftee in the pipeline in 7 years if only because F.A.'s can fail (biesel) too.

I really am confused by their thinking since BB came from a system where he had top LB draftees (3 on the Pats, at least 2 #1's and a #2 on the Giants.

As far as what they might have done, that's just human nature. If you tell me you were going to do something for 7 years, but you did something else, I'll believe the "something else" is your tendency until proven otherwise.

I still think they have to draft a LB good enough to eventually start, sometime. Getting the right you FA LB just might not happen when they need it. Those guys have to be available.

 

[patsox23]

OHHHHHHH. This may be a source of confusion on which we can find some middle ground. I have never intended to suggest the Patriots draft a LB at #2-#5. I always meant that I think they will trade out and pick up a mid-round LB (and then use the additional picks to grab whatever else, but hopefully a CB).

That said, I don't think BB would NOT pick a LB at that spot, I just think THIS YEAR there doesn't seem to be a LB that's good enough to justify that expenditure.

As for the stuff about scouting, eh, I don't know. I think that gets debunked when you embrace the FACT that they had a guy like Vilma, a guy like DJ Williams, on their first-round draft board. It just so happened that Wilfork - more of a need, more "special" - fell to us at #21 so we took him.

 

[patsfan209]

I really am confused by their thinking since BB came from a system where he had top LB draftees (3 on the Pats, at least 2 #1's and a #2 on the Giants.)

With the Giants, BB didn't have the power to shop for the groceries. Here with the Pats, he certainly does. I tend to believe if he ran the show in NY from 1986-1990, that Giants LB corp would be considerably different.

 

[RayClay]

There's no doubt the Pats can't use the average college LB, since they're made for a 4-3 and are too light.

They have passed up some 240-250 lb. MLB/ILBs and I don't think they can afford to keep doing that. Takes too long to convert the undersized DE from a pass rush specialist to an OLB to an ILB (Bruschi).

Woods is too tall and Thomas talent is wasted there.

We're going to end up platooning our most talented OLBs there for lack of another option. That's a pretty expensive option too.

 

[RayClay]

With the Giants, BB didn't have the power to shop for the groceries. Here with the Pats, he certainly does. I tend to believe if he ran the show in NY from 1986-1990, that Giants LB corp would be considerably different.

He didn't seem to have a problem with using McGinest, Bruschi and T.J., did he?

The cupboard will be bare in a year or two.

 

[patsox23]

Thomas may be more explosive and exciting at OLB, but he looked fine in the middle (a VERY tough position to grasp and he's only 10 games in) until he messed up his ankle v. Cleveland. I don't know if they'll go back to trying him there or not, but I'm thinking he can play beyond "wasting his talent" no matter where he is on the field.

 

[patsfan209]

He didn't seem to have a problem with using McGinest, Bruschi and T.J., did he?

Those three were Parcells' picks, not BB's... but they did fit his strict requirements when he returned here as HC in 2000. When he was AHC/DBs coach in '96, I'm not sure how comfortable BB was when he sees those three were playing a lot on D that year, probably cringing.

 

[RayClay]

Those three were Parcells' picks, not BB's... but they did fit his strict requirements when he returned here as HC in 2000. When he was AHC/DBs coach in '96, I'm not sure how comfortable BB was when he sees those three were playing a lot on D that year, probably cringing.

Huh? Repeat huh?

They went to the Super Bowl that year.

I really don't know what you're arguing sometimes.

 

[VJCPatriot]

As for the stuff about scouting, eh, I don't know. I think that gets debunked when you embrace the FACT that they had a guy like Vilma, a guy like DJ Williams, on their first-round draft board. It just so happened that Wilfork - more of a need, more "special" - fell to us at #21 so we took him.

Working out players is indeed part of the "scouting" process. It lets you confirm with your own eyes a few things that it might be hard to judge with tape alone. That's pretty routine and accepted, I would think.
Just because you have a guy on your draft board, doesn't meant that you are "targetting" that player.

For example in the 2008 draft if I'm the San Diego Chargers, I would have McFadden on my 1st round draft board, but since I have LT, that doesn't mean I am TARGETTING McFadden or even thinking about drafting a RB. See what I mean? Proof of a guy being on a team's "draft board" in a certain round is no proof at all that the team is even interested in drafting that player. It is only proof that the team considers that player talented enough to be on the board in such and such a round.

The Patriots obviously considered Vilma a 1st round talent. But they didn't draft him and as far as I know they didn't attempt to move up to draft him. That tells you something bit about their priorities and draft philosophy.
If the Patriots finally draft a 1st round linebacker, I'll be the first to congratulate you, because it doesn't fit the pattern of Piolichick's drafting so far at all.