Why have none of our ex-coaches come back?

[MoLewisrocks]

Really why don't you name them the fact is we have guys that should be coaching Curry college not a 1.5 billion dollar business, and I'm not sure cheap is the word but BB is suppose to be this great defensive genius right! So either he doesn't know talent anymore or the value word which is just another word for not paying people fair market value has taken over that franchise. What do you have to show for it the worst defense in the league, wide recievers playing cornerback, Oh this shows versatility please! The fact is they cut Sanders, Merriweather, Butler, Wilhite and even Wheatley for what they have now are you kidding me? So why were they cut IMO money now your paying street free agents they probably saved themselves 7 mil under the cap which goes back to the owners at the end of the year, either that or BB has become the worst talent evaluator of defensive players in the league.

Cap money doesn't go back to the owners at the end of the year. And it never has under BB's watch. We spend to the cap annually and if there is anything leftover they roll it over into next seasons cap. And we somehow have managed to have the best winning % in the league over the last decade.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

Taking the JETS job was kind of the last straw. Mangini was impatient and egotistical and BB didn't feel he was ready nor did he feel he'd paid his dues after one season as a DC on a team that had just won 3 rings. He'd even taken the red sweatshirt away from him midway through that one season. According to Holley they were like brothers in many respects who could fight like teenage girls over concepts and ideas yet by the move on and get back to work. But Bill had the final say and Mangini suffered from smartest guy in the room syndrome. Bill knew that and was waiting for him to grow up and get over himself. Some of the veteran players here weren't fond of his style despite some obvious x's and o's accumen. But then Tannenbaum talked him up to Woody as part of his own powerplay and he got the job offer that validated his ego. It went downhill as you described from there. It wasn't that the JETS were division rivals that bothered Bill. It was that he warned Eric from experience that the organization was sleezy and poorly run and a dead end job with the potential to derail coaching careers - and Eric ignored the advice preferring to believe Bill was just unwilling to give him credit for being ready to be a HC. Turned out Bill was right. The JETS used the information they were able to gleen from Eric to try and end Bill's career. And shortly thereafter they were done with Eric.

I was watching Eric on ESPN the other day and I get the sense he may finally have figured it all out and outgrown the ego. Too bad he was one of those guys who had to be hit over the head with a 2 x 4, repeatedly, before he realized how little he truly knew and how foolishly he behaved when he had the best coach in a generation as his personal mentor from the time entered the league as a ballboy...

I wouldn't be surprised to see Pioli bring him in along with Josh or Brian Daboll, but only as coordinators in waiting competing for a shot at that HC gig with RAC at the helm for the next couple of seasons.

I highly doubt that Scott will bring Mangina in as a HC or DC. Eric tarnished the image of the NEP while Scott P was our "GM".

 

[GrogansArmy]

It wasn't that the JETS were division rivals that bothered Bill. It was that he warned Eric from experience that the organization was sleezy and poorly run and a dead end job with the potential to derail coaching careers - and Eric ignored the advice preferring to believe Bill was just unwilling to give him credit for being ready to be a HC. Turned out Bill was right. The JETS used the information they were able to gleen from Eric to try and end Bill's career. And shortly thereafter they were done with Eric.

Examples on how the Jets tried to use Mangina to end BB's career? Sorry, don't see it. The jets hired him to get a clue on how to beat BB and the Pats, but not on how to end his career because BB bailed on the Jets (implied). Jets could careless if BB got fired, they just wanted to beat the Pats and win the division, and Mangina was an inside source on how to beat them.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Examples on how the Jets tried to use Mangina to end BB's career? Sorry, don't see it. The jets hired him to get a clue on how to beat BB and the Pats, but not on how to end his career because BB bailed on the Jets (implied). Jets could careless if BB got fired, they just wanted to beat the Pats and win the division, and Mangina was an inside source on how to beat them.

Who do you think told Tannenbaum about the taping of defensive signals... Just one among the many snipets of information Eric traded for a shot at a HC gig... Woody and his new GM would have loved to see Bill fired because that would have instantly made his JETS more competitive with or without Mangini. By 2007 they knew Eric's knowledge of the system wasn't going to get them the division.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

Cap money doesn't go back to the owners at the end of the year. And it never has under BB's watch. We spend to the cap annually and if there is anything leftover they roll it over into next seasons cap. And we somehow have managed to have the best winning % in the league over the last decade.

Tom Brady is the ONE AND ONLY big ticket item (oh yeah Vince is top dollar?? gimme a break) on this roster yet "we" spend to the the cap every year.
Bull^&Ht!!!!!!!!
Koolaid anyone????
When will this embarrassing smooch-a-thon end for the Kraft's?
Kraft's get the free pass Sox ownership never gets because they're locals?? Pathetic!!
NFL has a cap one can manipulate easily (see Jets) yet the Patriots low ball all over the place. (see defense)

 

[jmt57]

Really why don't you name them the fact is we have guys that should be coaching Curry college not a 1.5 billion dollar business, and I'm not sure cheap is the word but BB is suppose to be this great defensive genius right! So either he doesn't know talent anymore or the value word which is just another word for not paying people fair market value has taken over that franchise. What do you have to show for it the worst defense in the league, wide recievers playing cornerback, Oh this shows versatility please! The fact is they cut Sanders, Merriweather, Butler, Wilhite and even Wheatley for what they have now are you kidding me? So why were they cut IMO money now your paying street free agents they probably saved themselves 7 mil under the cap which goes back to the owners at the end of the year, either that or BB has become the worst talent evaluator of defensive players in the league.

I got a headache attempting to read what you wrote, but from what I could gather it was the equivalent of my saying 'that car is red', and you shouted out 'no, that building is rectangular!'

Ask yourself this: if the Pats were as concerned about expenses as say, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Jacksonville, Arizona and others are, then how do you explain the contracts of Brady, Wilfork, Mankins, and others? Why did they spend - perhaps in poor decisions - on contracts for Ellis and 85? Why didn't they can Belichick and his contract when the opportunity arose a few years ago, and go the route of say Tampa Bay when they hired Morris, and hire a guy who had never even been a coordinator for a bottom of the barrel contract? Why is it that the Pats pay their practice squad players more than other teams do?

One last question: if Bill Belichick is indeed the "worst talent evaluator of defensive players in the league", then how in the world are 18 NFL teams (including the Packers and Saints, by the way) allowing more points per game than the Pats are?


If you want to say the defense sucks, that's one thing. But please spare me with 'the Pats are cheap' drivel.

 

[patsfan-1982]

it has notting at all to do with money BB is just giveing the next guy in line a shot to make a name for them self, but tell me what have any of the old pats coaches done since they left ?

 

[brdmaverick]

Sorry, I haven't read through the pages of posts, but my theory is that it may actually be quite taxing to be a Patriots assistant.

Bill gets credit for all of your successes.

I think they leave and stay gone to try to create their own image outside of Bill's shadow.

 

[signbabybrady]

I suspect if you take BB out of the picture it's one of the lowest paid coaching staffs in the league, which is why you never ever hear about a coach coming back here.

Thats a pretty lame argument.

BB is by reports the highest paid coach in football (this was reported a few years back so someone might make more now).

So its when it comes to a multimillion dollar deal the Pats dont cheap out.

But when it comes to 6 figure deals they cheap out? I am doubting this to be the case but even if it were it still wouldnt be cheaping out it would be working within a budget that is top heavy.

I think in order to continue this any further we would need the salaries of the Pats assistants as compared to the rest of the league. My guess would be they fall somewhere around 15-20 which for a big market team would be considered low but factor in BBs salary and I am fine with being a little low. (my guesstimate is based off a vague knowledge of what our guys make and a vague knowledge of the assistants out there that likely make alot like say Martz in Chi)

 

[Deus Irae]

Thats a pretty lame argument.

BB is by reports the highest paid coach in football (this was reported a few years back so someone might make more now).

So its when it comes to a multimillion dollar deal the Pats dont cheap out.

But when it comes to 6 figure deals they cheap out? I am doubting this to be the case but even if it were it still wouldnt be cheaping out it would be working within a budget that is top heavy.

I think in order to continue this any further we would need the salaries of the Pats assistants as compared to the rest of the league. My guess would be they fall somewhere around 15-20 which for a big market team would be considered low but factor in BBs salary and I am fine with being a little low. (my guesstimate is based off a vague knowledge of what our guys make and a vague knowledge of the assistants out there that likely make alot like say Martz in Chi)

I'm not going back to look it up, but I believe it was during the Weis era that the idea of the Patriots not paying top dollar to the assistants came into prominence.

 

[Clonamery]

I think they leave and stay gone to try to create their own image outside of Bill's shadow.

"They hate their coach."

 

[signbabybrady]

I'm not going back to look it up, but I believe it was during the Weis era that the idea of the Patriots not paying top dollar to the assistants came into prominence.

I wasnt really expecting anyone do the research when I phrased my comment.

But let me ask you or anyone this, which is my main point: how can one consider an owner being cheap or cheaping out because he pays assistants below average when he pays the head coach well above average?


again without doing any research I would suspect that the difference of money spent on assistants compared to what the rest of the league averages on assistants would be far less than the difference between BBs salary and the the average HC salary.

 

[Deus Irae]

I wasnt really expecting anyone do the research when I phrased my comment.

But let me ask you or anyone this, which is my main point: how can one consider an owner being cheap or cheaping out because he pays assistants below average when he pays the head coach well above average?

Because paying one man above average is only paying one person, while paying many men below average is short shrifting many men.

again without doing any research I would suspect that the difference of money spent on assistants compared to what the rest of the league averages on assistants would be far less than the difference between BBs salary and the the average HC salary.

I really wasn't looking to get into this. I was just noting where I believe this all began. BB being the highest paid coach does run counter to the way the Patriots profess to run the payroll system of the players, and that's a bit hypocritical, but the obvious rejoinder there is that there is no salary cap for the coaches and front office staff.

 

[51Hits]

I'd moreso ask this question if BB moved on to something new and they STILL didn't get back together.

Has anyone ever had that feeling of "re-living" the past? Ya know, you go somewhere some day and it just feels like you're back where you literally were years ago. Well I think most people don't like that. Why would Weis and Crennel have left NE, just to come back to the very same hallways?

Maybe 5 years or so from now if their fotrunes continue as so, they'll be back. But I just don't see leaving a place and coming back within 10 years, usually that doesn't happen.

People bringing up BB re-joining Parcells is like **** Lambeau(sp?) going back to the Steelers. At that point, they had nothing else going for them in their careers so going back to what they knew was probably the best option. (Was BB a hot coaching name after the Browns? No, but he was hot again after the Jets wasn't he? He wasn't really here long enough in NE or in high enough of a position to be looked at in the mid 90's.) So when both men had nowhere else to go, they went back to what they knew.

Crennel/Weis will probably do the same when the times comes...JMO.

 

[Brarrell]

Cap money doesn't go back to the owners at the end of the year. And it never has under BB's watch. We spend to the cap annually and if there is anything leftover they roll it over into next seasons cap. And we somehow have managed to have the best winning % in the league over the last decade.

I'll just say Brady is not only the best qb in the last decade he is arguably the best in history. My only problem is he hasn't developed any wide recievers since Branch and Givens. Here are a few articles about teams payrolls and what used to happen with unspent cap money.

2009-10 NFL Salaries by Team - USATODAY.com

NFL: Teams most hurt, helped by salary-cap proposal - ESPN

 

[patfanken]

Examples on how the Jets tried to use Mangina to end BB's career? Sorry, don't see it. The jets hired him to get a clue on how to beat BB and the Pats, but not on how to end his career because BB bailed on the Jets (implied). Jets could careless if BB got fired, they just wanted to beat the Pats and win the division, and Mangina was an inside source on how to beat them.

I think that the main reason that BB was so pissed at Mangini was that he promised when he got the DC job that he wouldn't leave for a HCing position for a few years; The second reason was he tried to leave with some proprietary information and a few Pats employees who were under contract. That he left for the Jets was more just an irritant. Basically I think he could have cared less.

 

[patfanken]

Because paying one man above average is only paying one person, while paying many men below average is short shrifting many men.




I really wasn't looking to get into this. I was just noting where I believe this all began. BB being the highest paid coach does run counter to the way the Patriots profess to run the payroll system of the players, and that's a bit hypocritical, but the obvious rejoinder there is that there is no salary cap for the coaches and front office staff.

This notion that Kraft is cheap with his assistant coaches is nothing but an canard. I.ts the same kind of red herring that states the Pats are cheap with their payroll. It just doesn't make any sense on any level

Why would an owner who pays top dollar for first class facilities for his players. Spends extra to feed his players more than most teams. Spends extra to run their own scouting service; Spends extra to have the latest technology, An owner who has seen first hand how much coaching affects the productivity of his team Why would an owner who does all this, decide to skimp on such a critical area to the success of his team as paying his assistant coaches.

Cmon Man. I think you are trying too hard to play the cynic again.

 

[Deus Irae]

This notion that Kraft is cheap with his assistant coaches is nothing but an canard. I.ts the same kind of red herring that states the Pats are cheap with their payroll. It just doesn't make any sense on any level

Why would an owner who pays top dollar for first class facilities for his players. Spends extra to feed his players more than most teams. Spends extra to run their own scouting service; Spends extra to have the latest technology, An owner who has seen first hand how much coaching affects the productivity of his team Why would an owner who does all this, decide to skimp on such a critical area to the success of his team as paying his assistant coaches.

Cmon Man. I think you are trying too hard to play the cynic again.

1.) Your reading comprehension seems to be off.

2.) I think you're trying to hard to find gripes about my posts. I didn't knock Kraft in any way, shape, matter or form, and I certainly didn't call him cheap.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I don't think Kraft has a whole lot to do with what coaches not named Belichick are paid. Bill makes that decision and I think he believes that if money is your core motivator you're likely in the wrong outfit. Charlie did complain after the first ring when some crazy signings were resulting in coordinators being paid like assistant HC's (while his and RAC's phones somehow weren't ringing off the hook). Snyder fueled that the year he brought in a bunch of former HC's to prop up Joe Gibbs return to the coaching ranks... I recall Charlie and RAC did get their pay bumped in accordance with the market but it was with Bill's eye still on value. He isn't going to overpay coaches just to placate their egos, either. (And in case you haven't figured it out by now, Charlie had an ego...). He knew they both had ambition and at one point he was even concerned that they were both blocking young talent behind them (a lot left during their tenure to persue coordinator positions or at least have a shot at them) and that success breeds contentment and you don't get the balls to the wall effort out of some guys once they've achieved everything they ever hoped to at a level.

I'm sure Bill reached out to both of them when they were down and out, as he did to Dom Capers when Saban flew the coop and he couldn't get a job after Miami. But the thing is they both knew they had an out in KC. Same system, different/rookie HC and talent, opportunity to reprove themselves. RAC now wants the HC job in KC. Charlie got frustrated and the ego couldn't coexist with the golf pro's equally massice one so he moved on but has now moved again back to the college ranks as a HC. Not sure what RAC will do if Pioli doesn't give him this HC shot. Might go to college if the right situation is available or might move on as a DC with an Asst. HC title elsewhere (which we could not give him since Scar holds that position here), but that would simply underscore his own stubborness in wanting something he probably isn't going to get.

I happen to think that Pioli is set up pretty good to give RAC what he wants while bringing in a couple of other system guys who still want it too and letting them duke it out as RAC's successor. Probably depends on whether or not he still really wants Ferentz who was always his first choice when the time came and whether or not Kirk is ready to leave Iowa.