Where to save some cap space

[mgteich]

If Mankins is such a joke, he should be cut and we should take the $2M cap hit, and accrue the considerable savings in future years.

IMHO, Mankins is still one of the best guards in the nfl.

Who in God's name is going to trade for a 31 year old guard coming off of 2 injury filled seasons with a $10M+ cap hit over the next several years? Not even NFL GM's are that stupid.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

It's amazing how little context people take into account with Mankins. Since signing his contract, he's played a whole season on a torn ACL and then played a season after having surgery on that ACL. He's underachieved since signing his contract? No $#@!

But signing turned him into a Glass IR Dowling clone!

(I kid. I kid)

 

[mayoclinic]

If Mankins is such a joke, he should be cut and we should take the $2M cap hit, and accrue the considerable savings in future years.

IMHO, Mankins is still one of the best guards in the nfl.

Mankins is a fine guard, and hopefully will be fully healthy in 2013 and revert to his pre-2011 form. I mean no disrespect to the player. But no one is going to trade for him and take on that contract given age and injury issues. That's a different matter entirely.

 

[shmessy]

Who in God's name is going to trade for a 31 year old guard coming off of 2 injury filled seasons with a $10M+ cap hit over the next several years? Not even NFL GM's are that stupid.

Deus Irae.

You asked the question.

 

[shmessy]

Mankins is a fine guard, and hopefully will be fully healthy in 2013 and revert to his pre-2011 form. I mean no disrespect to the player. But no one is going to trade for him and take on that contract given age and injury issues. That's a different matter entirely.

Obviously, Mankins is the best LG the Patriots have.

No one is saying he is "through", or "done", etc. Is he a better LG than Donald Thomas? Yes. Is he $8-9 million better than Donald Thomas? HELL NO. Not even close. THAT is the crux of the matter.

LG is NOT a QB or NT. He is nowhere near as important to the New England Patriots as Tom Brady or Vince Wilfork. He is nowhere near as important to the Patriots as Jerod Mayo, Nate Solder, Rob Gronkowski, Stevan Ridley or several others.

On the list of players whom the Patriots could least do without, I would put him somewhere around 13th or 14th. He takes up the 3rd biggest cap space on the team. He is 31 and has been much hampered by injuries the past 2 years.

 

[ausbacker]

Obviously, Mankins is the best LG the Patriots have.

No one is saying he is "through", or "done", etc. Is he a better LG than Donald Thomas? Yes. Is he $8-9 million better than Donald Thomas? HELL NO. Not even close. THAT is the crux of the matter.

LG is NOT a QB or NT. He is nowhere near as important to the New England Patriots as Tom Brady or Vince Wilfork. He is nowhere near as important to the Patriots as Jerod Mayo, Nate Solder, Rob Gronkowski, Stevan Ridley or several others.

On the list of players whom the Patriots could least do without, I would put him somewhere around 13th or 14th. He takes up the 3rd biggest cap space on the team. He is 31 and has been much hampered by injuries the past 2 years.

That's really what the argument comes down to: production versus salary. I'm yet to see a compelling argument that supports Deus' contention that the drop off was huge from Mankins to the replacement LG.

Only a few silly posters are proposing the Mankins is a bum argument. That's just silly.

 

[Deus Irae]

That's really what the argument comes down to: production versus salary. I'm yet to see a compelling argument that supports Deus' contention that the drop off was huge from Mankins to the replacement LG.

I don't know what compelling argument you're expecting. I watched the games. Thomas wasn't good enough to supplant an injured Connolly, nevermind the vastly superior Mankins. If you want someone to mercilessly butcher the data in an attempt to prove something on this, you'll have to settle for Smessy's handiwork.

 

[ausbacker]

I don't know what compelling argument you're expecting. I watched the games. Thomas wasn't good enough to supplant an injured Connolly, nevermind the vastly superior Mankins. If you want someone to mercilessly butcher the data in an attempt to prove something on this, you'll have to settle for Smessy's handiwork.

Next time you offer an opinion as such could you kindly refer to it as an opinion and not fact. Thanks for at least clearing that up.

Personally, I didn't notice the considerable drop off that you claimed. As mentioned, that's just my opinion and not verifiable fact. I'm hopeful that Mankins returns to his best in 2013. He's a hell of a player.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Mankins is a fine guard, and hopefully will be fully healthy in 2013 and revert to his pre-2011 form. I mean no disrespect to the player. But no one is going to trade for him and take on that contract given age and injury issues. That's a different matter entirely.

Sure they would. All salary deals are easily reworked. And his salary which is all that would hit their cap isn't that high. Would be $5.7M this year, the end of his guaranteed money, $6.2M next year and $6.7M for the last 2 years. Absent his $20M signing bonus money which is amortized on our cap his deal is a dandy. We paid Matt Light $7M to play for one more season.

 

[Deus Irae]

Next time you offer an opinion as such could you kindly refer to it as an opinion and not fact.

You're kidding, right? Take a look at the post I was responding to.

Personally, I didn't notice the considerable drop off that you claimed. As mentioned, that's just my opinion and not verifiable fact. I'm hopeful that Mankins returns to his best in 2013. He's a hell of a player.

The considerable dropoff was there. Watch the games again. Just don't have Smessy watching with you, since he doesn't seem to grasp the notion of superior competition.

 

[ausbacker]

You're kidding, right? Take a look at the post I was responding to.

The considerable dropoff was there. Watch the games again. Just don't have Smessy watching with you, since he doesn't seem to grasp the notion of superior competition.

No, I'm not kidding. You made a comment which is open to debate. You're positioning your opinion to be correct when it's reasonable that the opposite of that opinion may be correct.

It comes down to preference Deus. You believe the drop off was considerable where others don't believe that. Neither is 100% right because it's personal observation.

 

[Deus Irae]

No, I'm not kidding. You made a comment which is open to debate. You're positioning your opinion to be correct when it's reasonable that the opposite of that opinion may be correct.

My comment was no differently positioned than was Smessy's, or than most of your opinions. You're either looking to start something or just posting this because you disagreed with the position. I'm not going to preface every opinion with "in my opinion", and nobody else does, either, including yourself.

It comes down to preference Deus. You believe the drop off was considerable where others don't believe that. Neither is 100% right because it's personal observation.

It's not just personal observation. If the dropoff wasn't there, don't you think Mankins would have either been on the bench resting or on IR? That's this team's modus operandi, after all, and Mankins was sat more than once during the season.

 

[ausbacker]

My comment was no differently positioned than was Smessy's, or than most of your opinions. You're either looking to start something or just posting this because you disagreed with the position. I'm not going to preface every opinion with "in my opinion", and nobody else does, either, including yourself.

I wasn't certain with your position and queried you on it. You said there was a tremendous drop off. I wanted you to show me why there was a tremendous drop off. Don't fault me for your failure to build an argument that compels me to change my position. All I did was ask the question.

It's not just personal observation. If the dropoff wasn't there, don't you think Mankins would have either been on the bench resting or on IR? That's this team's modus operandi, after all, and Mankins was sat more than once during the season.

Mankins plays because Mankins is the best Guard on the team. I'm not going to disagree with that (despite my thoughts on his contract).

 

[Deus Irae]

I wasn't certain with your position and queried you on it. You said there was a tremendous drop off. I wanted you to show me why there was a tremendous drop off. Don't fault me for your failure to build an argument that compels me to change my position. All I did was ask the question.

You did more than that, and you know it. You went on about it in multiple posts. Then, when I answered your question, you chastized me about it. You were being hypocritical, and your follow up isn't much better. Let's drop this portion of the situation and move on.

Mankins plays because Mankins is the best Guard on the team. I'm not going to disagree with that (despite my thoughts on his contract).

If Mankins is the best guard and Thomas can't beat out a very weak right guard in Connolly, who was injured, how do you go about claiming the dropoff from Mankins to Thomas wasn't considerable? In his first outing, Thomas played at a level that might not even have been acceptable to a college team, for crying out loud, and he never even reached Dan Connolly level of play after that, but you're trying to say that wasn't much of a drop from Mankins?

This place gets really weird after the Patriots lose in the playoffs.

 

[ausbacker]

You did more than that, and you know it. You went on about it in multiple posts. Then, when I answered your question, you chastized me about it. You were being hypocritical, and your follow up isn't much better. Let's drop this portion of the situation and move on.

You haven't answered anything. You're attempting to change the situation to put it on me for your failure to answer the question outside of your opinion.

You were given the opportunity to explain your position and instead chose to say look at the tape. If this were somebody responding to you, you would label this response as poor or lousy.

I wanted something definitive. You haven't offered that. That's fine and I'm now going to disagree with your initial contention because there appears to be very little to support the position that it was a tremendous drop off. Slight perhaps, tremendous no.

If Mankins is the best guard and Thomas can't beat out a very weak right guard in Connolly, who was injured, how do you go about claiming the dropoff from Mankins to Thomas wasn't considerable? In his first outing, Thomas played at a level that might not even have been acceptable to a college team, for crying out loud, and he never even reached Dan Connolly level of play after that, but you're trying to say that wasn't much of a drop from Mankins?

This place gets really weird after the Patriots lose in the playoffs.

It's really quite simple: production and performance. I don't happen to believe that the drop off was tremendous as you emphatically state. Thomas was indeed poor to begin the season. To me, it seemed that as the season progressed he improved.

Seeing as though you have no solid ground for your opinion other than watch the tape, it's probably best to leave this discussion here because we're wildly off topic.

 

[KenSims]

Guard fight!

 

[mayoclinic]

James Christensen of NEPatriotsDraft on the 2013 cap situation:

2013 Patriots Off-Season: Salary Cap Situation | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2013 NFL Draft

I think the main question I have with Christensen's analysis is his belief that the cap will grow in 2014. I don't think that's likely at all.

 

[eom]

James Christensen of NEPatriotsDraft on the 2013 cap situation:

2013 Patriots Off-Season: Salary Cap Situation | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2013 NFL Draft

I think the main question I have with Christensen's analysis is his belief that the cap will grow in 2014. I don't think that's likely at all.

couple years ago everyone was saying it would blow up, but then I read some article that threw a lot of cold water on that, and it seemed pretty well reasoned.

 

[Deus Irae]

You haven't answered anything. You're attempting to change the situation to put it on me for your failure to answer the question outside of your opinion.

That is not true. Go back and read what you asked. You'll find it's been answered. The rest of this is just you saying the same thing I'm saying while claiming to say otherwise, so it's not worth continuing.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

James Christensen of NEPatriotsDraft on the 2013 cap situation:

2013 Patriots Off-Season: Salary Cap Situation | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2013 NFL Draft

I think the main question I have with Christensen's analysis is his belief that the cap will grow in 2014. I don't think that's likely at all.

The cap is expected to remain flat thru the 2014 season. After that it will begin to grow again but not exponentially for a number of reasons. The formula has changed and the TV revenues are phased in and the league allowed the NFLPA to save face by borrowing against future caps in order to save it the embarassment of living down a $114M cap in 2011. That money will be paid back out of future caps. Kraft has said he doesn't expect more than steady growth beginning in 2015. Some keep waiting for the windfall that isn't coming. But it should start growing in the 4-6% range or by $5-7M per over the last 6 years of this CBA.

And the Brady extension alone could create more space than the Mankins and Wilfork restructures combined, while Vince's restructure could create it's own impending problems since he only has 2 years remaining. His cap hit in 2014 would then be in excess of $14M... I wouldn't touch Vince's deal unless it was tied to an extension. Similar to the Brady situation where a simple restructure again this year results in a $28M cap hit in 2014. In both cases you would then be in a position where extending them or cutting them with significant dead cap is your only play and tagging them in 2015 is out of the question because of the 120% rule. And actually cutting Brady would be out of the question since his remaining money is all guaranteed at the end of 2013.