Where to save some cap space

[MoLewisrocks]

I think this is the most likeliest outcome, Mo. The answer to whether Fenene shafted the Pats, or the Pats medical staff wasn't thorough enough will have to wait for BB's memoirs to be published, but it just makes too much sense for the Pats not to just give up on the 2.5 he already has, and get a credit for the rest.

If both sides go the legal route, most of what would be gained by either party would be eaten up in the legal process. As usual, only the lawyers win. I think Fenene would agree, since he already stole $2.5MM from the Pats and any legal battle for the rest will cost him more, relatively speaking, than a deep pocketed multi-billion corporation.

IIRC from the threads on the topic when he was cut, going after the money they already gave him would be pretty murky. I think the Pats would have prove he was hurt prior to the signing, and that would be tough since (IIRC) he practiced a few days and he could claim he got hurt then. That would be hard to disprove.

For Fanene a settlement of sorts may be preferrable but not because of legal fees. The NFLPA covers those for players filing grievances. If he's trying to come back it may be in his best interest not to have his medicals dragged through the mud. If he's not, he will likely persue the $1.35M he is owed because "that's a lotta dough".

Personally I've never believed they had a leg to stand on or any intention of persuing it. They were simply embarassed at making a mistake and when that happens in a Kraft owned organization Jonathan tends to get somewhat pre-emptively defensive.

They got all his medicals from Cincy, although they signed him before they finished reviewing them (or perhaps before they even arrived some have claimed). They administered 2 physicals, one pre signing and a second pre camp after he experienced some discomfort during early offseason OTA's. He passed both. Early arthritic changes are not easy to identify during routine physicals. Fanene wouldn't be the only player on the team experiencing them, either, who hasn't yet been actually diagnosed with arthritis and is playing through it's early stage.

If you really, truly go digging for trouble you'd be hard pressed to field a team.

 

[mayoclinic]

For Fanene a settlement of sorts may be preferrable but not because of legal fees. The NFLPA covers those for players filing grievances. If he's trying to come back it may be in his best interest not to have his medicals dragged through the mud. If he's not, he will likely persue the $1.35M he is owed because "that's a lotta dough".

Personally I've never believed they had a leg to stand on or any intention of persuing it. They were simply embarassed at making a mistake and when that happens in a Kraft owned organization Jonathan tends to get somewhat pre-emptively defensive.

They got all his medicals from Cincy, although they signed him before they finished reviewing them (or perhaps before they even arrived some have claimed). They administered 2 physicals, one pre signing and a second pre camp after he experienced some discomfort during early offseason OTA's. He passed both. Early arthritic changes are not easy to identify during routine physicals. Fanene wouldn't be the only player on the team experiencing them, either, who hasn't yet been actually diagnosed with arthritis and is playing through it's early stage.

If you really, truly go digging for trouble you'd be hard pressed to field a team.

I count that money as long gone. If the Pats get a nickel back I'll be surprised, but I'm not banking on anything till it's publicly reported.

I also think that trying to withhold payment of the last $1.35M might do more damage to the team's image and future ability to attract veteran FAs than that amount of money would justify.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Well....that seems a little glib. Yes, there are five guys on the line, but you can certainly analyze how the line performs and extrapolate some things from that.

And you almost have to because no team can afford to spend $25M against the cap on OLmen and still hope to field a top tier QB and multiple top tier skill position players on offense while fielding a top notch defensive front 7 or potentially a secondary with a couple of top tier talents... The Pats are facing choices there already with Vollmer a UFA and Solder needing to be either extended after next season or hit with the rookie 5th year tag.

OL translates better from college to pro, particularly if you have an asset like Dante to coach 'em up. Which means you have to keep drafting and developing linemen or you're cap will be impacted given the tag for them is across the board and driving positional salaries through the roof for veteran talent.

 

[mgteich]

I don't see us spending any significant money on the front seven, although a top draftee and a minor upgrade would be nice.

We spend the top DL money on Wilfork. As you say, we save on DE's. We can afford a draftee or low cost upgrade or two on the DL., but that's about it.

At LB, the big money goes to Mayo. Again a low cost upgrade would be fine. After all we have Tarpinian and Rivera, and will soon have Fletcher.
=========================

Keeping the cost of positions like DE and RB down is what allows the Pats to spend at other places.

 

[shmessy]

Without making any judgments about Mankins' play relative to that of his replacements, I should note that the Pats went 6-0 in the 6 games that Mankins missed this season. In 2010 they went 5-2 in the 7 games that he held out. That's a combined record of 11-2 with Donald Thomas and Dan Connolly (who at the time had started only 4 games in his entire career, all at RG) as our starting LG. So while Mankins may be a significant upgrade over his replacements, the Pats seem to survive in his absence with lesser players at LG. Obviously, that doesn't factor in that he was less than 100% much of this year when he did play, though that wasn't the case in 2010.

Exactly.

Why do some people feel Mankins is worth $8-9 million per year more than his backups???

He isn't.

And it is no argument that he has been not physically 100%. He's a 31 year old guy with major injuries the past two years. That does NOT make him a great value.

 

[JackBauer]

Exactly.

Why do some people feel Mankins is worth $8-9 million per year more than his backups???

He isn't.

Again, you can find examples of this on probably every single team in the league.

 

[shmessy]

Sorry, but you cannot make a statistically based argument for things like the run game or pass protection based upon 1 OL and act as if that reflects their individual play.

That's completely COUNTER to the argument made by Mankins and Deus as to why he deserves to be paid $8-9 million more (and take up the resulting cap space) than his backups.

If what you are saying is correct, then you just submarined the argument to shovel so much of the cap space to a LG.

 

[Deus Irae]

Exactly.

Why do some people feel Mankins is worth $8-9 million per year more than his backups???

He isn't.

Yes, he is. When healthy, Logan Mankins is considered perhaps the best guard in the NFL. When healthy, Donald Thomas can't win the starting job from Dan Connolly.

And it is no argument that he has been not physically 100%. He's a 31 year old guy with major injuries the past two years. That does NOT make him a great value.

Of course it's an argument. Claiming otherwise just shows that you're posts aren't based on anything reasonable.

 

[shmessy]

Again, you can find examples of this on probably every single team in the league.

You've written that twice already.

What kind of point is that????

"Every team makes mistakes, so it no problem"?????????????

The goal is to BEAT every other team in the league, Jack.

 

[shmessy]

Yes, he is. When healthy, Logan Mankins is considered perhaps the best guard in the NFL. When healthy, Donald Thomas can't win the starting job from Dan Connolly.




Of course it's an argument. Claiming otherwise just shows that you're posts aren't based on anything reasonable.

When healthy.

The guy is turning 31 and has had MAJOR injuries the past two years in a row.

He's been of no more use to the team than his backup the past two years running. His backup, who is 4 years younger saves the team $8-9 million per year on the cap and has been able to stay healthy.

If his body cannot hold up, he won't be worth a damn......surely not the $8-9 million/yr more than his younger and ABLE BODIED backup.

When healthy and young, Robert Edwards is a great running back.

Is Mankins a better LG than his backups. You bet. Has he been WORTH $8- 9 million more per year to the Patriots than his backups the past two years - - NO WAY.

 

[JackBauer]

You've written that twice already.

What kind of point is that????

"Every team makes mistakes, so it no problem"?????????????

The goal is to BEAT every other team in the league, Jack.

I had to write it twice because apparently it didn't sink in the first time.

The merits of the point itself are questionable, but as I said you can point to myriad examples of <insert player here> not being worth "x" times the remuneration as their backup, even on the best teams in the league (oh hai, Alex Smith). If there was any mistake made regarding Mankins' contract, it's that the Patriots probably paid more than they otherwise would have needed to because they didn't handle the negotiations well. But let's be real: a healthy Mankins is a top 5 guard in the league, while a healthy Thomas might be playing in the NFL or he might be pumping gas. Now I actually have some faith that Scar can work his magic and squeeze some blood from a stone in Thomas' case, but if you want to talk about areas to upgrade that should really come at Connolly's expense, not Mankins'.

 

[Deus Irae]

When healthy.

The guy is turning 31 and has had MAJOR injuries the past two years in a row.

He's been of no more use to the team than his backup the past two years running. His backup, who is 4 years younger saves the team $8-9 million per year on the cap and has been able to stay healthy.

If his body cannot hold up, he won't be worth a damn......surely not the $8-9 million/yr more than his younger and ABLE BODIED backup.

When healthy and young, Robert Edwards is a great running back.

Is Mankins a better LG than his backups. You bet. Has he been WORTH $8- 9 million more per year to the Patriots than his backups the past two years - - NO WAY.

He had one major injury, that he played through, and then he had injuries reported as likely because of favoring the old injury while coming back. Holding that against him, or claiming he's falling apart because of it, is about as ridiculous as it gets.

And the notion that he's been no more useful than his backup is just as ridiculous. If it were truly the case, the backup would have been playing and Mankins would have been rehabbing from the bench or placed on IR.

 

[mgteich]

Obviously, we could trade Mankins and sign Thomas and Vollmer. I don't think that this will happen.

 

[resdubwhite]

I'd like to see Mankins one year post knee injury before I write him off. I think its safe to say he isn't going anywhere in the next two years given the cap problems it would cause. And I doubt the team will move any money into the final two years of that deal the may like the flexibility of eating up the cap restrictions sooner rather than later given his age.

 

[mayoclinic]

Obviously, we could trade Mankins and sign Thomas and Vollmer. I don't think that this will happen.

Who in God's name is going to trade for a 31 year old guard coming off of 2 injury filled seasons with a $10M+ cap hit over the next several years? Not even NFL GM's are that stupid.

 

[tonyto3690]

Mankins was handsdown the worst Patriots signing in the Belichick era.

Not only has he completely underachieved and played well below his contract, his contract makes him untradeable and uncuttable since it would just make his cap hit even worse.


And to top it all off, at the end of the day he is a GUARD. Not a quarterback, not a #1 wr, not a stud RB. He's an offensive guard, the least important position in all of football.

He is overrated and overpaid and we're stuck with his practically dead cap space for another couple years.

 

[Deus Irae]

Mankins was handsdown the worst Patriots signing in the Belichick era...

 

[ausbacker]

Mankins was handsdown the worst Patriots signing in the Belichick era.

Not only has he completely underachieved and played well below his contract, his contract makes him untradeable and uncuttable since it would just make his cap hit even worse.


And to top it all off, at the end of the day he is a GUARD. Not a quarterback, not a #1 wr, not a stud RB. He's an offensive guard, the least important position in all of football.

He is overrated and overpaid and we're stuck with his practically dead cap space for another couple years.

Whilst I agree that he's overpaid and his contract isn't Patriots friendly Mankins has been a fine Patriots player and for a long time. These past two seasons are the only times I can remember him being stuffed by injuries. I assume once he gets back to full health he'll return to being a mauler.

I was interested to see what the production difference between Mankins and his replacements were. At this point, a reasonable argument hasn't been put forward that supports there was a major drop off in performance. Sure there's numbers, but for mine, a lot of observed OL play comes down to what we see with our own two eyes.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Mankins was handsdown the worst Patriots signing in the Belichick era.

Not only has he completely underachieved and played well below his contract, his contract makes him untradeable and uncuttable since it would just make his cap hit even worse.


And to top it all off, at the end of the day he is a GUARD. Not a quarterback, not a #1 wr, not a stud RB. He's an offensive guard, the least important position in all of football.

He is overrated and overpaid and we're stuck with his practically dead cap space for another couple years.

You missed Ocho & AD?

 

[Sciz]

It's amazing how little context people take into account with Mankins. Since signing his contract, he's played a whole season on a torn ACL and then played a season after having surgery on that ACL. He's underachieved since signing his contract? No $#@!