What is the ceiling for Talib?

[BradyFTW!]

hall? Deangleo? Hope not

I assume he meant Leon Hall.

This thread asks the question what is Talib's ceiling, I say his ceiling is as high as a top 5 CB.

Who played better than him in 2012 or who has a better body of work does not matter in terms of who has a higher ceiling. Ceilings are often times never reached, Laurence Maroney had a much higher ceiling than Green Ellis, but yet Green Ellis is a starter in the NFL at age 28, and Maroney is out of the league at age 28.

If you look at the players you listed only Revis, Sherman, Petterson, and Cromartie there is not another player under the age of 30 with NFL experience that has the athletic ability, intangibles, and size/strength of Talib, that is why I consider his ceiling to be top 5.

Players with a higher ceiling than Talib, IMO:

Revis
Sherman
Peterson
Flowers
Haden
Hall
Webb if he's healthy, which I suppose we're assuming he is since we're assuming Talib is
Joseph ^ see Webb

There's your top 5 and then some, and I don't think you can even make a case for Talib against any of them. I'm also not even necessarily saying that the list stops there for me - just stopped thinking about it at that point because the point was made. In addition, there's probably another half dozen or more that I'd definitely take over him if we're talking solely about ceiling, if not actual production.

Talib's a good #1 CB. He's not miscast in that role. In today's NFL, lots of teams basically use a nickel defense as their base, so having a top-20 guy is a real commodity. He's an above-average starter, or an average #1 corner, depending on how you choose to look at it.

IMO, best case scenario for Talib is that he breaks into the top 10, probably around 7-9. If I'm not being optimistic, I'd say that I see him as a #15-20 guy overall. Again, that's a compliment. He's a really good football player.

Also, re: the Maroney analogy, I really don't see the point in talking about that. There's a limit when you're talking about ceiling, because if we're talking hypothetically about what a guy could theoretically be if absolutely everything went right for him, then you'd probably have to add a lot of guys that nobody's ever heard of. Bill Parcells once said that he saw guys with Lawrence Taylor's athleticism in training camp every year. The NFL is absolutely packed with guys who have unbelievable potential. Hell, Alvis Whitted might have become an amazing WR if his hands had ever stopped being made of stone.

 

[Brady6]

I assume he meant Leon Hall.



Players with a higher ceiling than Talib, IMO:

Revis
Sherman
Peterson
Flowers
Haden
Hall
Webb if he's healthy, which I suppose we're assuming he is since we're assuming Talib is
Joseph ^ see Webb

There's your top 5 and then some, and I don't think you can even make a case for Talib against any of them. I'm also not even necessarily saying that the list stops there for me - just stopped thinking about it at that point because the point was made. In addition, there's probably another half dozen or more that I'd definitely take over him if we're talking solely about ceiling, if not actual production.

Talib's a good #1 CB. He's not miscast in that role. In today's NFL, lots of teams basically use a nickel defense as their base, so having a top-20 guy is a real commodity. He's an above-average starter, or an average #1 corner, depending on how you choose to look at it.

IMO, best case scenario for Talib is that he breaks into the top 10, probably around 7-9. If I'm not being optimistic, I'd say that I see him as a #15-20 guy overall. Again, that's a compliment. He's a really good football player.

Also, re: the Maroney analogy, I really don't see the point in talking about that. There's a limit when you're talking about ceiling, because if we're talking hypothetically about what a guy could theoretically be if absolutely everything went right for him, then you'd probably have to add a lot of guys that nobody's ever heard of. Bill Parcells once said that he saw guys with Lawrence Taylor's athleticism in training camp every year. The NFL is absolutely packed with guys who have unbelievable potential. Hell, Alvis Whitted might have become an amazing WR if his hands had ever stopped being made of stone.

I like your post, you made a lot of accurate and compelling arguments, and I'd say it has swayed my opinion some as well, so I appreciate that opportunity to educate myself.

The other thing I'd mention is my reason for not considering Webb, Hayden, Joseph and Hall in the same category in terms of ceiling had to do with them all being under 6' feet and 200 pounds, therefore lacking the size which I see as important in this era of big WR.

 

[ATippett56]

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Best Cornerback Charting Stats 2012

 

[ATippett56]

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Worst Cornerback Charting Stats 2012

 

[Joker]

Richard Sherman performs as a top five corner...

Richard Sherman HAS DONE AND is DOING illegal performance enhancing drugs...

Sherman and his teammate, Brandon Browner, had tested positive for Adderall, a banned substance unless prescribed by a doctor, Browner began serving his suspension immediately. Sherman spent Friday in New York arguing his appeal. He contended that the cup containing his specimen leaked and the person collecting the sample placed a second cup, which had a broken seal, beneath the first one.

One of Sherman’s lawyers, Maurice Suh, said in a statement today: “We are very pleased that the hearing officer recognized that the egregious errors that occurred with Mr. Sherman’s collection required overturning the NFL’s discipline. Mr. Sherman provided honest testimony about a severely flawed process, and the hearing officer found him to be a credible man. We couldn’t be happier for Richard, and we were thrilled to help him and the union [the NFL Players Association] present a very strong case.”

Just as it did for Ryan Braun, a flawed collection process made Sherman’s case. One of the Seahawks’ best defensive players, having him for a playoff run is crucial. Now, with Browner having served his suspension, they’ll have both in the secondary.

the second cup underneath the one with a leak had the adderall in it? yeah, OK...hey look!!!

then he tweets THIS after pulling this obvious scam..."the cup had a hole in it!!! See!!! I'm INNOCENT!!!"
Richard Sherman ✔ @RSherman_25

Thank you @nfl for upholding the truth! To the 12s Thank you your faith is rewarded! Thank you lord
12:12 PM - 27 Dec 2012

He's a complete fraud and a brazen liar in the mold of Ryan Braun. So you can put him in the top five if you want, I put him in the sewer with the rest of the A Rods and Ryan Brauns that will boldly lie in public like it's free.Richard Sherman is nothing but cheating lying scum but his big mouth is "good for the game" as far as Goondell is concerned. More joke decisions by the worst joke commissioner in any sport's history.

Now, this past June, it comes out that the whole Seahawk team is riddled with adderall dopers and this punk Sherman just passes it off NOW as "it is what it is"...total punk should be banned for a season.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/richard-sherman-seahawks-ped-problem_n_3423410.html

According to NFL.com, the Seahawks have had more PED suspensions than any other team in the league since head coach Pete Carroll took over for the 2010 season.

 

[ATippett56]

Richard Sherman performs as a top five corner...

Richard Sherman HAS DONE AND is DOING illegal performance enhancing drugs...

The spokesman for Richard Sherman replies:

"You mad bro?"

 

[Joker]

well then the spokesman is a POS scumbag like Sherman and so is anyone who thinks it's a joke...which is no big news around here ...plenty of screwhead scumbags to go around..know what I mean, Vern?........

 

[IllegalContact]

not sure, but based on this chart

his ceiling is either 2.31 or 3

 

[borisman]

I say he's top 10 good. If he stays healthy he'll prove as well. I hate to compare him to Ty Law because their style is different but the impact he should have could be comparable.

 

[tonyto3690]

I say he's top 10 good. If he stays healthy he'll prove as well. I hate to compare him to Ty Law because their style is different but the impact he should have could be comparable.

If you put prime Law on this team, we have an elite defense. Law was a legitimate shut down, top 3 corner. Talib has never been that good.

Yes, Talib would be one of the top 5 corners if has a perfect year and zero health issues.

Yes, and everyone else in the top ten gets worse.

What the hell are we talking about here? This guy came in and gave us a lift unlike anything we've seen since Asante Samuel. Not only does he have good size at 6'1, experience but he is talented, physical and is a great cover guy. He took on the task of guys like Andre Johnson and kept them in check. He immediately like mentioned before, changed the defense in whether he is top 5 or top 10 he is the top CB on this team and one of the best in the NFL in my book. Notice how everything changed once he got hurt against Baltimore. We should be thrilled to have him here from the beginning this season.

Did Talib have a positive impact on our defense? Yes absolutely. He pushed Arrington into the slot where he is elite, as opposed to outside where he is terrible. It also kept Cole off the field and the turnaround coincidently also happened when McCourty was moved to safety and Tavon was benched. "Coincidently".

If you put Sherman, Revis, or any of the 10+ other CBs in the league that are better than him, the impact would have been even better. What changed wasn't that we added an elite CB. What changed was we added a CB that wasn't completely horrible and didn't give up 40 yard gains every three plays, along with McCourty taking Tavons spot.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Richard Sherman performs as a top five corner...

Richard Sherman HAS DONE AND is DOING illegal performance enhancing drugs...

Sherman and his teammate, Brandon Browner, had tested positive for Adderall, a banned substance unless prescribed by a doctor, Browner began serving his suspension immediately. Sherman spent Friday in New York arguing his appeal. He contended that the cup containing his specimen leaked and the person collecting the sample placed a second cup, which had a broken seal, beneath the first one.

One of Sherman’s lawyers, Maurice Suh, said in a statement today: “We are very pleased that the hearing officer recognized that the egregious errors that occurred with Mr. Sherman’s collection required overturning the NFL’s discipline. Mr. Sherman provided honest testimony about a severely flawed process, and the hearing officer found him to be a credible man. We couldn’t be happier for Richard, and we were thrilled to help him and the union [the NFL Players Association] present a very strong case.”

Just as it did for Ryan Braun, a flawed collection process made Sherman’s case. One of the Seahawks’ best defensive players, having him for a playoff run is crucial. Now, with Browner having served his suspension, they’ll have both in the secondary.

the second cup underneath the one with a leak had the adderall in it? yeah, OK...hey look!!!

then he tweets THIS after pulling this obvious scam..."the cup had a hole in it!!! See!!! I'm INNOCENT!!!"
Richard Sherman ✔ @RSherman_25

Thank you @nfl for upholding the truth! To the 12s Thank you your faith is rewarded! Thank you lord
12:12 PM - 27 Dec 2012

He's a complete fraud and a brazen liar in the mold of Ryan Braun. So you can put him in the top five if you want, I put him in the sewer with the rest of the A Rods and Ryan Brauns that will boldly lie in public like it's free.Richard Sherman is nothing but cheating lying scum but his big mouth is "good for the game" as far as Goondell is concerned. More joke decisions by the worst joke commissioner in any sport's history.

Now, this past June, it comes out that the whole Seahawk team is riddled with adderall dopers and this punk Sherman just passes it off NOW as "it is what it is"...total punk should be banned for a season.

Richard Sherman On Seahawks PED Suspensions: 'It Is What It Is'

According to NFL.com, the Seahawks have had more PED suspensions than any other team in the league since head coach Pete Carroll took over for the 2010 season.

He's an ******* and a cheater, you'll get no argument from me on any of that. He's also an elite cornerback.

 

[JackBauer]

If you put prime Law on this team, we have an elite defense. Law was a legitimate shut down, top 3 corner. Talib has never been that good.

Of course, it's kind of tricky to compare someone like Law, who had the benefit of defensive rules which really accommodated his style of play, to someone like Talib.

Either way, I don't buy there are 10+ corners in the league who are better than Talib.

 

[letekro]

Ty Law being a "shutdown" corner is an absurd statement. He was a very good, smart, and tough zone corner. He was not, however, a revis that could shadow his man all over the field.

 

[Brady6]

Ty Law being a "shutdown" corner is an absurd statement. He was a very good, smart, and tough zone corner. He was not, however, a revis that could shadow his man all over the field.

Law is widely considered one of the top 10 cornerbacks of all time that is a pretty high distinction for any player; especially one that played a position that has 2 starters on each team generally, so if Ty Law wasn’t a shutdown I’m not sure who is :confused3:.

Even if you disagree personally the use of the word “absurd” is a drastic overstatement on your part, and certainly unmerited :der:.


Top Ten Best Cornerbacks in NFL History - TheTopTens.com

Ranking the NFL's Top 10 Cornerbacks in League History | Bleacher Report

Ten of the Best Cornerbacks in NFL History: (page 2)

 

[mgteich]

I agree with you.

Ty Law may or may not get into Canton (there are many on both sides) but he certainly was a top corner, probably top 10 of all time,

Law is widely considered one of the top 10 cornerbacks of all time that is a pretty high distinction for any player; especially one that played a position that has 2 starters on each team generally, so if Ty Law wasn’t a shutdown I’m not sure who is :confused3:.

Even if you disagree personally the use of the word “absurd” is a drastic overstatement on your part, and certainly unmerited :der:.


Top Ten Best Cornerbacks in NFL History - TheTopTens.com

Ranking the NFL's Top 10 Cornerbacks in League History | Bleacher Report

Ten of the Best Cornerbacks in NFL History: (page 2)