Welcome to PatsFans.com

What is the ceiling for Talib?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Brady_to_Moss, Aug 2, 2013.

  1. Brady_to_Moss

    Brady_to_Moss Revis Island is here PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    16,682
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    #95 Jersey

    How good can he be or become if he had a perfect year? Top 5 CB? Top 10? I really think that in the right system and a full year with 0 health issues...he could become a top 5 CB in this league. He has the tools IMO. But he just has to put it all together which i think will be tough.
  2. Marqui

    Marqui Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Messages:
    2,497
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Top 5 CB definitely if he stays on the field.
  3. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    16,254
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    I'd say top-10. He's one of the best press corners in the game, but he's not especially good at playing off of receivers. That one versatility issue keeps him out of the top 5 no matter how good he is at what he does, IMO.

    On the bright side, he's good enough as a press corner that he can be very effective just doing that almost all of the time.
  4. Marqui

    Marqui Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Messages:
    2,497
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I've heard some say that before and it's really not true. I don't know if it's because he rarely played off in TB and people assumed he couldn't do it, but the the whole "Talib struggles playing off coverage" thing is a myth.

    He's not elite at it like Samuel, but he plays it about as well as guys like Bailey/Joseph.
  5. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    20,243
    Likes Received:
    33
    Ratings:
    +34 / 0 / -1

    Two feet below Ebner's. :cool:
  6. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    16,254
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    Granted, this scouting report is slanted against the Patriots overall, but one thing that I thought it highlighted excellently was Talib's struggles playing off his man:

    The Film Room: Why The Patriots Should Be So Very, Very Afraid Of The Texans - Battle Red Blog

    Or, try this (very informative) write-up:

    Film Breakdown of Redskins Hopeful Signing, Aqib Talib - Hogs Haven

    It's no coincidence that it highlights a bunch of positive plays that Talib made while playing press coverage, and the worst play that's highlighted happens to be the one where he's playing off his man.

    Again, I didn't say that Talib's bad in off-man coverage. He's better than the BRB link claimed, for sure. But the issue that BRB highlighted was a real one, even if it was dramatically overstated. Even if he's just adequate at playing off-man, that's still enough of a blemish on the resume where I'd leave him off my top 5. When you're talking top-5 CBs, they're all either really good at everything, or better at what they do best than Talib is at what he does best. I'm thinking of guys like Revis, Sherman, Peterson, Haden, Flowers, and Tillman. You could also make a strong case for Bailey and Cromartie being better than Talib.

    If you're just trying to win games this year, without respect for age, health, or salary, how many of those guys would you take Talib over?
  7. scott99

    scott99 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    3,177
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0

    I think he's top 10 already. Which we haven't had since Assante Samuel was here.
  8. Brady6

    Brady6 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    7,680
    Likes Received:
    27
    Ratings:
    +29 / 6 / -2

    #12 Jersey

    His mensurable's are top five.

    Player Age Height Weight 40 Dash 20 Dash 10 Dash 225 Bench Vertical Broad Jump 20 Shuffle 3 Cone
    Talib 27 6'1 202 4.38 2.52 1.47 10 38 10"11" 4.25 6.82
    Revis 28 6'0 204 4.38 2.49 1.46 N/A 38 10"5" 4.08 6.56
    Sherman 25 6'2 195 4.54 2.56 1.56 16 38 10"5" 4.33 6.82

    His career stats match up well based on a productivity to games played.

    Player GP COMB SACK FF FR INT PD
    Talib 64 201 0 1 2 19 56
    Revis 79 294 1 3 5 19 98
    Sherm 32 119 1 4 1 12 41

    I posted this information to support my belief that Talib can be a top 3 CB in the NFL, it is just a question of him wanting to be and putting in the effort. He has the talent/tools, the technique, and most importantly the mindset/personality, to be in the class of Revis, Sherman and others. I'm hoping that him being an off season award winner is an indication that he has turned a corner and now GET'S IT finally. If that is the case I think is ceiling could be as high as #1 CB in the NFL.
  9. Marqui

    Marqui Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Messages:
    2,497
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Revis, Sherman, and maybe Cromartie.

    While good corners, you're overrating those other guys. Peterson in particular as inconsistent as any corner the league and got beat for plenty of big plays last year. If I had time I could cherry pick plays of those other corners getting beat the way those quick scouting reports you posted did. There's too many snaps in a season to only look at a few plays. Today's NFL every corner gives up catches in every game.

    Talib definitely isn't unbeatable, but neither is any other corner in the league other than Revis/Sherman. Talib in the top 5 may be a little over optimistic, but he's definitely top 10.
  10. Brady_to_Moss

    Brady_to_Moss Revis Island is here PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    16,682
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    #95 Jersey

    wasn't there word that this off season he has trained very hard or more than he ever has before? Thought i read that somewhere along the way. I wonder if it's becasue he is a FA next year...
  11. Brady6

    Brady6 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    7,680
    Likes Received:
    27
    Ratings:
    +29 / 6 / -2

    #12 Jersey

    He was one of the 10 players to win an off-season recognition award for training. I highly doubt he ever won that in TB.
  12. Brady_to_Moss

    Brady_to_Moss Revis Island is here PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    16,682
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    #95 Jersey

    that's what it was. Yeah i am going to go with a no to winning that in TB
  13. Brady6

    Brady6 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    7,680
    Likes Received:
    27
    Ratings:
    +29 / 6 / -2

    #12 Jersey

    Not unless you count pistol whipping his sisters brother as MMA training :smash:

    I think Talib may be one of those players that really embrace the culture and behaviors that Brady, Wilfork, Mayo and others live by. Down in TB he was part of a young team, with minimal presence of veteran players, Talib's crimes all are indicative of immaturity in my opinion. Also don't discount the Hernandez situation being a real eye opener for a lot of these guys; showing how fast your life can turn from elite to scum.
  14. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    40,774
    Likes Received:
    64
    Ratings:
    +89 / 3 / -1

    Disable Jersey

    People are going to break out the "top 5" stuff with Talib based upon a couple of weeks of competing against the likes of Michael Jenkins?


    Really?
  15. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    16,254
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    #12 Jersey

    Sounds like we're really not all that far off. You definitely rate Talib higher than I do, but it doesn't seem to be by an especially wide margin. I agree that, if healthy, Talib can definitely be a top-10 CB, although I don't think I'll ever have him in my top 5. Personally, I'd take all of the guys that I listed over Talib just for this season, except maybe Bailey, depending on how much further he declines. I agree that Sherman/Revis is the cream of the crop, although I'd seriously consider putting Haden up there with them - he had a miserable start last season, but over the last 10 games or so he was as good as anyone.

    After those guys, there's another tier of CBs, of which I think Talib is part, who are very good starters and could all make a reasonably credible claim that they're top 10-15 corners.
  16. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    12,304
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +23 / 1 / -0

    Same as its been since he first came out in the draft - a legit #1 CB. Now hopefully he performs and can stay outta trouble. If so he's gonna earn himself some big bucks. Hopefully we can afford to keep him. Seeing what happened to Hernandez though, I want protections built into that contract!
  17. scout

    scout Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    7,625
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    #15 Jersey

    Actually, the example from the Herald article the other day was shutting down Houston's Johnson in last year's playoff game (until Talib got injured).
    All the talk of not having a gifted WR this year. A gifted DB trumps a WR everytime.
  18. Salva135

    Salva135 Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2008
    Messages:
    959
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Well he isn't bottom 5, which is more than we can say for much of what we've seen at the position over the last few years, so I'll take it.

    In all seriousness, though, I really think Talib's re-signing was one of, if not the most significant (positive) offseason move for this team. If he stays healthy his presence does wonders for the defense.
  19. Brady6

    Brady6 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    7,680
    Likes Received:
    27
    Ratings:
    +29 / 6 / -2

    #12 Jersey

    D personally I'm basing it on is talent, intangibles, that out of shape and often injured he was capable of holding his own against top WR, and most important I'm basing it on his offseason recognition for training which I view as an indication he has turned a corner in his career. I don't think anyone can deny Talib has what it take to be a top 5 CB he just has never gotten there because of motivation, distraction, and injuries.
  20. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    40,774
    Likes Received:
    64
    Ratings:
    +89 / 3 / -1

    Disable Jersey

    Assuming he's back to form, Revis locks up the top 3 along with Sherman and Peterson. In order for Talib to crack the top 5, he'd have to be top 2 behind that, and Talib may well not even be the best CB in the AFCE.
  21. Brady6

    Brady6 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    7,680
    Likes Received:
    27
    Ratings:
    +29 / 6 / -2

    #12 Jersey

    I'm not saying it is going to happen, I'm just saying the combination of his talent with his improved work ethic makes it possible. I believe that the only thing that has ever stood in Talib's way, is Talib himself.
  22. tonyto3690

    tonyto3690 Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    896
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Sorry, but there is no way in hell he is even close to top 5, even at his best.

    Locks as better:
    Revis, Sherman, Tillman, Flowers, Webb, Joseph, Hall

    Almost definitely:
    Haden, Finnegan, Peterson, Bailey, Cromartie, Browner,

    Debatable:
    Amukamara, Jackson, Culliver, Jennings, Tramon, Carr, Taylor

    Could be:
    Grimes, Asomougha, Cason, Hall, Rogers, Webster, Milliner, Claiborne, Vontae
  23. s3antana5757

    s3antana5757 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Also, utter lack of Chris Harris, who was one of the best CBs last year makes everything even more the questionable. Note: I'm not as high on Talib as most, but I think he's got a lot of potential. I think he could crack the Top 10 with a good season. These sorts of lists(especially for corners) change almost yearly. If you had Harris, Sherman, and Jennings in your Top 10 last year, you're lying. I think McCourty would have been in most of these lists about this time last year.
  24. tonyto3690

    tonyto3690 Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    896
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I forgot Harris, it's not the end of the world, nor changes my point, only strengthens it.

    Tillman won't get the turnovers like last year, but he's still good in coverage and a great tackler. I would take him over Talib in a heartbeat. I'd trade Talib and a draft pick for Tillman in a heartbeat.

    Finnegan really wasn't that bad last year. He just played for a bad team. I'd be fine with putting him in the debatable category because he is no longer in that elite category he used to be.

    Heyward wasn't better than Tramon last year. Both Tramon and Shields actually both regressed a bit IMO, but are still high upside guys we've seen play at high levels.

    Totally whiffed on Culliver and forgot his injury.

    I'd take Jackson and Jennings over Talib in a heartbeat, personally.




    Really, Talib is not nearly as good as people believe. He's merely not laughably bad and allows Arrington to play the slot where he's best and kept Cole off the field. It also allowed McCourty to stay at safety and keep one of the other laughably bad players off the field.

    Look at the first Texans game for an example. People raved about how he played Andre in that game, but he got beat for like 10 catches and 120 yards IIRC.

    Solid corner, an elite #2, good #1 maybe at his best, but no where near elite #1 corner. Thankfully we aren't the Jets and we aren't predicated on corner play and we only need our top 3 CBs to be good, not great.
  25. TB12_laser designator

    TB12_laser designator Signed, benched, cut. PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I have to agree with you there. Personally I don't believe in getting bogged down in list making - top 5 CB, top 10 CB ect. What matters is he makes a difference to our secondary, a big difference. And this year his impact could be even greater, because he's heading into the season with a very good camp under his belt. If he maintains his focus and his drive, then I think he'll turn a few heads this season. I just hope he'll be fit and healthy for us at the business end of the season.
  26. Brady6

    Brady6 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    7,680
    Likes Received:
    27
    Ratings:
    +29 / 6 / -2

    #12 Jersey

    Re: Re: What is the ceiling for Talib?

    So what you're saying is Talib could be the 30th best CB in the nfl?

    Do you have stats or measurable's to support this? Cause outside of Revis, Tillman and Sherman I'm honestly having a hard time buying what you're selling.
  27. Brady_to_Moss

    Brady_to_Moss Revis Island is here PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Messages:
    16,682
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    #95 Jersey

    hall? Deangleo? Hope not
  28. Brady6

    Brady6 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    7,680
    Likes Received:
    27
    Ratings:
    +29 / 6 / -2

    #12 Jersey

    This thread asks the question what is Talib's ceiling, I say his ceiling is as high as a top 5 CB.

    Who played better than him in 2012 or who has a better body of work does not matter in terms of who has a higher ceiling. Ceilings are often times never reached, Laurence Maroney had a much higher ceiling than Green Ellis, but yet Green Ellis is a starter in the NFL at age 28, and Maroney is out of the league at age 28.

    If you look at the players you listed only Revis, Sherman, Petterson, and Cromartie there is not another player under the age of 30 with NFL experience that has the athletic ability, intangibles, and size/strength of Talib, that is why I consider his ceiling to be top 5.
  29. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2007
    Messages:
    4,016
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    he's not a rookie or a 2th year player he's going into he's 7th season in the NFL so we already know what he's ceiling is and its not top 5 but if he's first full season with the pats can look anything like he's first few years with the bucs it will really help a team that has given up over 13000 yards through the air the last three seasons
  30. Brady6

    Brady6 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    7,680
    Likes Received:
    27
    Ratings:
    +29 / 6 / -2

    #12 Jersey

    Huh? Tom Brady's hadn't thrown for 30+ touchdown or a 95 QB rating until his 7th season in 2007, until that season he was widely considered a game manager.

Share This Page