What is the ceiling for Talib?

[Brady6]

Assuming he's back to form, Revis locks up the top 3 along with Sherman and Peterson. In order for Talib to crack the top 5, he'd have to be top 2 behind that, and Talib may well not even be the best CB in the AFCE.

I'm not saying it is going to happen, I'm just saying the combination of his talent with his improved work ethic makes it possible. I believe that the only thing that has ever stood in Talib's way, is Talib himself.

 

[tonyto3690]

Sorry, but there is no way in hell he is even close to top 5, even at his best.

Locks as better:
Revis, Sherman, Tillman, Flowers, Webb, Joseph, Hall

Almost definitely:
Haden, Finnegan, Peterson, Bailey, Cromartie, Browner,

Debatable:
Amukamara, Jackson, Culliver, Jennings, Tramon, Carr, Taylor

Could be:
Grimes, Asomougha, Cason, Hall, Rogers, Webster, Milliner, Claiborne, Vontae

 

[s3antana5757]

Sorry, but there is no way in hell he is even close to top 5, even at his best.

Locks as better:
Revis, Sherman, Tillman, Flowers, Webb, Joseph, Hall

Sure. I don't have any argument with these guys, although I expect Tillman to come back down to Earth some. Webb did deal with an injury last year.

Almost definitely:
Haden, Finnegan, Peterson, Bailey, Cromartie, Browner,

Finnegan hasn't been good for a couple seasons. The rest I'm ok with.

Debatable:
Amukamara, Jackson, Culliver, Jennings, Tramon, Carr, Taylor

Tramon wasn't even the best corner on his team last year, Heyward or Shields was. Amukamara has been good for one season and was hurt the rest of the time. Culliver is very debatable and is going to miss this season. Carr is highly debatable. As a guy who roots for the Cowboys in the NFC, he's not lived up to expectations. Jackson, Taylor, and Jennings, ehh ok. I think they're about in the same class.

Could be:
Grimes, Asomougha, Cason, Hall, Rogers, Webster, Milliner, Claiborne, Vontae

No. To all these guys. Vontae was ranked as like the 10th worst CB by PFF. Asomugha, while I think if a team uses him the right way could get back to what he was, has been AWFUL for two seasons. Cason is horrendous. Hall is flashy for the INTs, but not a great coverage guy or tackler. Milliner has never played a down in the NFL. Claiborne is a step below Carr who I wasn't that high on. Rogers and Hall you could debate.

Also, utter lack of Chris Harris, who was one of the best CBs last year makes everything even more the questionable. Note: I'm not as high on Talib as most, but I think he's got a lot of potential. I think he could crack the Top 10 with a good season. These sorts of lists(especially for corners) change almost yearly. If you had Harris, Sherman, and Jennings in your Top 10 last year, you're lying. I think McCourty would have been in most of these lists about this time last year.

 

[tonyto3690]

I forgot Harris, it's not the end of the world, nor changes my point, only strengthens it.

Tillman won't get the turnovers like last year, but he's still good in coverage and a great tackler. I would take him over Talib in a heartbeat. I'd trade Talib and a draft pick for Tillman in a heartbeat.

Finnegan really wasn't that bad last year. He just played for a bad team. I'd be fine with putting him in the debatable category because he is no longer in that elite category he used to be.

Heyward wasn't better than Tramon last year. Both Tramon and Shields actually both regressed a bit IMO, but are still high upside guys we've seen play at high levels.

Totally whiffed on Culliver and forgot his injury.

I'd take Jackson and Jennings over Talib in a heartbeat, personally.




Really, Talib is not nearly as good as people believe. He's merely not laughably bad and allows Arrington to play the slot where he's best and kept Cole off the field. It also allowed McCourty to stay at safety and keep one of the other laughably bad players off the field.

Look at the first Texans game for an example. People raved about how he played Andre in that game, but he got beat for like 10 catches and 120 yards IIRC.

Solid corner, an elite #2, good #1 maybe at his best, but no where near elite #1 corner. Thankfully we aren't the Jets and we aren't predicated on corner play and we only need our top 3 CBs to be good, not great.

 

[TB12_laser designator]

I believe that the only thing that has ever stood in Talib's way, is Talib himself.

I have to agree with you there. Personally I don't believe in getting bogged down in list making - top 5 CB, top 10 CB ect. What matters is he makes a difference to our secondary, a big difference. And this year his impact could be even greater, because he's heading into the season with a very good camp under his belt. If he maintains his focus and his drive, then I think he'll turn a few heads this season. I just hope he'll be fit and healthy for us at the business end of the season.

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: What is the ceiling for Talib?

Sorry, but there is no way in hell he is even close to top 5, even at his best.

Locks as better:
Revis, Sherman, Tillman, Flowers, Webb, Joseph, Hall

Almost definitely:
Haden, Finnegan, Peterson, Bailey, Cromartie, Browner,

Debatable:
Amukamara, Jackson, Culliver, Jennings, Tramon, Carr, Taylor

Could be:
Grimes, Asomougha, Cason, Hall, Rogers, Webster, Milliner, Claiborne, Vontae

So what you're saying is Talib could be the 30th best CB in the nfl?

Do you have stats or measurable's to support this? Cause outside of Revis, Tillman and Sherman I'm honestly having a hard time buying what you're selling.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

hall? Deangleo? Hope not

 

[Brady6]

I forgot Harris, it's not the end of the world, nor changes my point, only strengthens it.

Tillman won't get the turnovers like last year, but he's still good in coverage and a great tackler. I would take him over Talib in a heartbeat. I'd trade Talib and a draft pick for Tillman in a heartbeat.

Finnegan really wasn't that bad last year. He just played for a bad team. I'd be fine with putting him in the debatable category because he is no longer in that elite category he used to be.

Heyward wasn't better than Tramon last year. Both Tramon and Shields actually both regressed a bit IMO, but are still high upside guys we've seen play at high levels.

Totally whiffed on Culliver and forgot his injury.

I'd take Jackson and Jennings over Talib in a heartbeat, personally.




Really, Talib is not nearly as good as people believe. He's merely not laughably bad and allows Arrington to play the slot where he's best and kept Cole off the field. It also allowed McCourty to stay at safety and keep one of the other laughably bad players off the field.

Look at the first Texans game for an example. People raved about how he played Andre in that game, but he got beat for like 10 catches and 120 yards IIRC.

Solid corner, an elite #2, good #1 maybe at his best, but no where near elite #1 corner. Thankfully we aren't the Jets and we aren't predicated on corner play and we only need our top 3 CBs to be good, not great.

This thread asks the question what is Talib's ceiling, I say his ceiling is as high as a top 5 CB.

Who played better than him in 2012 or who has a better body of work does not matter in terms of who has a higher ceiling. Ceilings are often times never reached, Laurence Maroney had a much higher ceiling than Green Ellis, but yet Green Ellis is a starter in the NFL at age 28, and Maroney is out of the league at age 28.

If you look at the players you listed only Revis, Sherman, Petterson, and Cromartie there is not another player under the age of 30 with NFL experience that has the athletic ability, intangibles, and size/strength of Talib, that is why I consider his ceiling to be top 5.

 

[patsfan-1982]

he's not a rookie or a 2th year player he's going into he's 7th season in the NFL so we already know what he's ceiling is and its not top 5 but if he's first full season with the pats can look anything like he's first few years with the bucs it will really help a team that has given up over 13000 yards through the air the last three seasons

 

[Brady6]

he's not a rookie or a 2th year player he's going into he's 7th season in the NFL so we already know what he's ceiling is and its not top 5 but if he's first full season with the pats can look anything like he's first few years with the bucs it will really help a team that has given up over 13000 yards through the air the last three seasons

Huh? Tom Brady's hadn't thrown for 30+ touchdown or a 95 QB rating until his 7th season in 2007, until that season he was widely considered a game manager.

 

[tonyto3690]

So what you're saying is Talib could be the 30th best CB in the nfl?

Do you have stats or measurable's to support this? Cause outside of Revis, Tillman and Sherman I'm honestly having a hard time buying what you're selling.

Yep. I personally think he's in the 13-15 range, with upside to the fringe top 10 and floor of 17-20.

This thread asks the question what is Talib's ceiling, I say his ceiling is as high as a top 5 CB.

Who played better than him in 2012 or who has a better body of work does not matter in terms of who has a higher ceiling. Ceilings are often times never reached, Laurence Maroney had a much higher ceiling than Green Ellis, but yet Green Ellis is a starter in the NFL at age 28, and Maroney is out of the league at age 28.

If you look at the players you listed only Revis, Sherman, Petterson, and Cromartie there is not another player under the age of 30 with NFL experience that has the athletic ability, intangibles, and size/strength of Talib, that is why I consider his ceiling to be top 5.

Sorry but Talib is never going to be a top 5 CB. I'm really not sure why you're trying to twist reality to say Talib has the ceiling to be a top 5 CB because he really doesn't. He's not overly athletic, he doesn't have great size. He's a solid player who plays at a pretty good level. He doesn't even come close to Revis, Sherman, and the other top tier CBs.

And if you want to skew things and talk about potential ceiling, Cromartie, Haden, Amukamura, Milliner, Peterson, Claiborne are all guys with a much higher ceiling than Talib. That is of course not even factoring in guys like Revis and Sherman who have already achieved their potential.

Sorry, but Talib is not a top 5 CB, never has been a top 5 CB, and never will be a top 5 CB. Nor will his potential ever be top 5 CB. He's a good corner who has maxed out already and his max isn't even what the elite guys floor is.

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: What is the ceiling for Talib?

Yep. I personally think he's in the 13-15 range, with upside to the fringe top 10 and floor of 17-20.




Sorry but Talib is never going to be a top 5 CB. I'm really not sure why you're trying to twist reality to say Talib has the ceiling to be a top 5 CB because he really doesn't. He's not overly athletic, he doesn't have great size. He's a solid player who plays at a pretty good level. He doesn't even come close to Revis, Sherman, and the other top tier CBs.

And if you want to skew things and talk about potential ceiling, Cromartie, Haden, Amukamura, Milliner, Peterson, Claiborne are all guys with a much higher ceiling than Talib. That is of course not even factoring in guys like Revis and Sherman who have already achieved their potential.

Sorry, but Talib is not a top 5 CB, never has been a top 5 CB, and never will be a top 5 CB. Nor will his potential ever be top 5 CB. He's a good corner who has maxed out already and his max isn't even what the elite guys floor is.

He is unlikely to be a top 5 CB I agree with you there but you're wrong if you think he doesn't have a top 5 ceiling. Talib is extremely athletic he is actually more athletic than Richard Sherman, and he has outstanding size for a CB he is actually bigger than Revis.

 

[Claremonster]

Yep. I personally think he's in the 13-15 range, with upside to the fringe top 10 and floor of 17-20.




Sorry but Talib is never going to be a top 5 CB. I'm really not sure why you're trying to twist reality to say Talib has the ceiling to be a top 5 CB because he really doesn't. He's not overly athletic, he doesn't have great size. He's a solid player who plays at a pretty good level. He doesn't even come close to Revis, Sherman, and the other top tier CBs.

And if you want to skew things and talk about potential ceiling, Cromartie, Haden, Amukamura, Milliner, Peterson, Claiborne are all guys with a much higher ceiling than Talib. That is of course not even factoring in guys like Revis and Sherman who have already achieved their potential.

Sorry, but Talib is not a top 5 CB, never has been a top 5 CB, and never will be a top 5 CB. Nor will his potential ever be top 5 CB. He's a good corner who has maxed out already and his max isn't even what the elite guys floor is.

Top 10 is good enough...as long as he doesn't give up the big play and is healthy. That is all that really matters.

 

[Tunescribe]

Here's a recent photo. I don't know who his decorator is, but ... yeesh.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Top 10 is good enough...as long as he doesn't give up the big play and is healthy. That is all that really matters.

all i want is top 10 and with him being a FA next year..i think we could have that if he stays healthy

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

What the hell are we talking about here? This guy came in and gave us a lift unlike anything we've seen since Asante Samuel. Not only does he have good size at 6'1, experience but he is talented, physical and is a great cover guy. He took on the task of guys like Andre Johnson and kept them in check. He immediately like mentioned before, changed the defense in whether he is top 5 or top 10 he is the top CB on this team and one of the best in the NFL in my book. Notice how everything changed once he got hurt against Baltimore. We should be thrilled to have him here from the beginning this season.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, Talib would be one of the top 5 corners if has a perfect year and zero health issues.

How good can he be or become if he had a perfect year? Top 5 CB? Top 10? I really think that in the right system and a full year with 0 health issues...he could become a top 5 CB in this league. He has the tools IMO. But he just has to put it all together which i think will be tough.

 

[Brady6]

What the hell are we talking about here? This guy came in and gave us a lift unlike anything we've seen since Asante Samuel. Not only does he have good size at 6'1, experience but he is talented, physical and is a great cover guy. He took on the task of guys like Andre Johnson and kept them in check. He immediately like mentioned before, changed the defense in whether he is top 5 or top 10 he is the top CB on this team and one of the best in the NFL in my book. Notice how everything changed once he got hurt against Baltimore. We should be thrilled to have him here from the beginning this season.

I have been one of the main catalysts in Talib’s ceiling being considered top 10 or even top 5; that said I disagree with your belief that he gave us a lift unlike any player since Samuel. Your evaluation is significantly overvaluing Talib; Talib played 391 of a possible 639 defensive snaps last season (as a Patriot) which equates to 61% of them. Deion Sanders couldn’t provide the impact you’re suggesting playing that percent of the defenses snaps. Add to that the fact Talib was out of shape and/or injured for the many of the 391.

If you want to point to one thing that improved our pass defense it was moving McCourty (who played 98% of the defensive snaps) to safety, which put a stop to us getting beat over the top consistently as was happening with Chung, Gregory, Wilson, and Ebner back there in the weeks prior.

 

[patsfan-1982]

Huh? Tom Brady's hadn't thrown for 30+ touchdown or a 95 QB rating until his 7th season in 2007, until that season he was widely considered a game manager.

Brady's numbers from 2001 until 2006 were better then Troy aikmans career numbers he was always much more then just a "game manager" we can talk how he's stats went up when Moss and welker were signed and how since 2007 the NFL has become a pass happy league but I would just not compare anyone to Brady lest of all Talib, but I do get what your trying to say there is no reason why he cant have a career season in a contract year and I hope he dose cause the pats need him

 

[Brady6]

Brady's numbers from 2001 until 2006 were better then Troy aikmans career numbers he was always much more then just a "game manager" we can talk how he's stats went up when Moss and welker were signed and how since 2007 the NFL has become a pass happy league but I would just not compare anyone to Brady lest of all Talib, but I do get what your trying to say there is no reason why he cant have a career season in a contract year and I hope he dose cause the pats need him

Brother I wasn't agreeing with the notion that Brady was a game manager, or diminishing his excellent performance during that period, I was simply pointing out that even a great player such as Brady truly began to hit his ceiling in his 7th season.