What do you think is holding up the Welker signing?

[JackBauer]

No.

It means you place a proper value on a player with the entire roster in mind and don't pay him any more than that.

You can't pay everyone top $.

Right. And you seem to be of the mind that Welker is worth about as much as Leigh Bodden when he signed his deal. Which to me is frankly insane.

 

[Ivan]

I would give anything to see you guys say the things you have been saying here to Brady or Belichik, just to watch them shred you to pieces for your ignorance.

 

[Keyser Söze]

I would give anything to see you guys say the things you have been saying here to Brady or Belichik, just to watch them shred you to pieces for your ignorance.

Hop off your high horse for once. God you're annoying.

 

[ivanvamp]

Steve Smith ran a 4.38 coming out of College. Welker a 4.55. The speed is a huge factor in the difference between the two. Look...at...the...tape. Don't just take a peak at the stat sheet.

My two cents: I'd love to have Steve Smith. Dude is an amazing football player. He's tough as nails, is incredibly quick and fast. He's not as productive as Welker is, however. You say don't peek at the stat sheet, but the stats do tell at least part of the story. Welker is unbelievably productive. Don't look at the size or the combine numbers (just as you don't want people to look at the stats). The fact is that Wes Welker has been one of the most productive WR in the sport over the past 5 seasons. He's a guy I want on my team. (Can I have both him *and* Steve Smith?)

You can see what;s restricting our offense, and it's not having a true split end.

Here are the numbers this team has put up since 2007:

2007
- pts: 589 (36.8/g)
- rank: #1 pts, #1 yds

2008 (without Brady)
- pts: 410 (25.6/g)
- rank: #8 pts, #5 yds

2009
- pts: 427 (26.7/g)
- rank: #6 pts, #3 yds

2010
- pts: 518 (32.4/g)
- rank: #1 pts, #8 yds

2011
- pts: 513 (32.1/g)
- rank: #3 pts, #2 yds

If we toss out the year with Cassel instead of Brady, we're talking about an average line of this:

32.0 ppg
#2.8 avg rank pts
#3.5 avg rank yds

Over that span of time this team has set a bunch of offensive records. It's hard to argue that not having a true split end is holding them back.

Now, granted, Moss was with them for a bunch of it, so let's just look at the last 2 seasons. We're still talking about:

- 32.2 ppg
- #2 rank pts
- #5 rank yds
- 29 of 32 games with 20+ pts
- 23 of 32 games with 30+ pts

It's really, really hard to argue that this team is being held back offensively. In the playoffs the past two seasons, here's what they've scored: 21, 45, 23, 17. That's an average of 26.5. It's below their norm, but it's still a pretty good amount of points.

Would a dynamic outside receiver help? Sure - and I've advocated them signing a guy like Lloyd or Meacham. But it's not like this offense is being held back. I mean, they're basically a juggernaut year-in and year-out.

 

[Elijah T.]

Right. And you seem to be of the mind that Welker is worth about as much as Leigh Bodden when he signed his deal. Which to me is frankly insane.

I just feel that we can win as many games without Welker because we have Gronk and Hernandez working the flats, seam, and between the numbers.

Welker was more important before they emerged this season.

I just don't see where it helps the team to pay Welker 9 million per going forward with our tight ends.

The system is so dependent on Brady making 25 accurate throws in tight zone windows every game. short to intermediate, short to intermediate, short to intermediate....

We need someone that Brady can trust to go up and get the football from time to time...Which forces coverage to open up inside.

Hey, if we can keep Welker, add Colston/Lloyd/Wayne (one of them), add another WR in the draft and still make our resigns and add a playmaker on D (Mario Williams, Cliff Avril, Dashon Goldson, Tyvon Branch, Brent Grimes, Red Bryant etc) then sure..

But if we tie up 8-9 million per in Welker that's unlikely considering we'd probably want to consider extending Gronk or Hernandez in-season.

 

[JackBauer]

I just feel that we can win as many games without Welker because we have Gronk and Hernandez working the flats, seam, and between the numbers.

But that's not how it works.

Gronkowski is already likely maxed in terms of production. That leaves Hernandez and whomever else they sign at WR to make up Welker's numbers.

Not to mention the fact that by not resigning Welker, you weaken an already poor WR corps, which means you'll need to either expend yet more money to sign free agents or use draft picks. Obviously it goes without saying that either recourse entails vastly higher risk than resigning an already proven Welker.

IMO, the best course of action (assuming WW doesn't price himself out looking for top-5 money), is to resign the guy, sign a FA like Lloyd or Wayne, and draft a developmental talent at WR.

 

[Ivan]

Hop off your high horse for once. God you're annoying.

Just curious, what do you think Brady and Belichik would say to you if you said they should get rid of him because he's too short, too slow, and not a true WR?



If you think they would agree with you then i guess I really am on my high horse. I think they would tell you that you don't know what you are talking about, and I would bet most agree.

 

[Jangles]

I'm embarrassed for those who use it in discussions about real football as though Madden performances had a bearing on the real game.

Nobody does that. You attribute people wanting a bigger WR to them being a "Madden" fanboy?

Ridiculous

Welker has been a big factor in the Patriots success and suggesting that not getting a ring diminishes his value is beyond stupid. Seriously, you guys say things like this and then get upset when your intelligence is questioned.

I didn't say it diminished his value. I just used your stupid point about "Madden ring" against you.

He is clearly one of the best players in football and he gets treated like a scrub by those who quote his measurables (he's 5'10) and his lack of value to Madden Football. Those who do this deserve the scorn they get because they are beoing jackasses.

Nobody cares about "Madden football" and repeating that makes you look foolish.

 

[Jangles]

As for the topic of this thread, Welker is an awesome WR. He is particularly great IN THIS SYSTEM.

He is not even close to as valuable as Larry Fitz, or Megatron. Those two players would be all star WR's on any time, with any QB, regardless of who was in their supporting cast. If instead of Gronk, we had Ben Watson, and defenses could focus on Welker he would disappear.

He just simply doesn't have the physical tools to dictate what he's going to do on the field like those guys.

 

[Elijah T.]

But that's not how it works.

Gronkowski is already likely maxed in terms of production. That leaves Hernandez and whomever else they sign at WR to make up Welker's numbers.

Not to mention the fact that by not resigning Welker, you weaken an already poor WR corps, which means you'll need to either expend yet more money to sign free agents or use draft picks. Obviously it goes without saying that either recourse entails vastly higher risk than resigning an already proven Welker.

IMO, the best course of action (assuming WW doesn't price himself out looking for top-5 money), is to resign the guy, sign a FA like Lloyd or Wayne, and draft a developmental talent at WR.

Right, and for the most part I agree.

My entire argument here is the money Welker is going to want. He made 2 million last year, I don't see 6 million over 4 years (24 million 12 million guaranteed) being a slap in the face.....He's a slot receiver. Top five money is 8-12 million per year.

I don't emphasize numbers, because the numbers in this offense can be replaced with less statistically but more big plays...Plays over 25 yards with a competent outside receiver.

Also utilizing the tailback more in the passing game is an option (20-40 catches).

This offense has changed its focus a few times since Weiss was here, but it's the same offense...We can get production and wins without gawdy numbers that don't include a "deep passing game" element.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

As usual, with the Pats we just can't know for sure.

Based on their history, they're not going to break the bank with a long term deal for a 31 yo receiver. I'd imagine that they are trying to figure out how to pay him well for a couple of years and then build in a lot of incentives beyond that.

Problem is, of course, that there are others who would just pay him and worry about the out years later.

Bottom Line? I think they franchise him.

 

[Deus Irae]

The "effect" of those numbers can be replaced.

122 catches...How many of those were over 20 yards?

How many were outside the numbers?

These things matter to an offense. We need a player who can do more than make catches 15 yards inside the numbers.

The basis of my argument is value. How much value is Welker comparitevely to other players at his position making the same amount of money?

I'm not arguing Welkers numbers or ability. He's probably the best slot receiver in the league..But do we need to pay a slot receiver 9 million with our young tight ends?

It took you no time at all to move the goalposts, congratulations on that, I guess. Your arguments suck, but at least you're willing to abandon them immediately, while still making the same, horrendous, underlying assertions.

 

[Elijah T.]

It took you no time at all to move the goalposts, congratulations on that, I guess. Your arguments suck, but at least you're willing to abandon them immediately, while still making the same, horrendous, underlying assertions.

What are you talking about?

Do you have any answers?

What did I abandon?

We have no deep passing game. How do we improve that paying Welker 9 million or more a year.

Simple to understand??

 

[Deus Irae]

What are you talking about?

That's pretty obvious, given that I quoted you verbatim on the two posts.

Do you have any answers?

Yes, in fact, I do.

What did I abandon?

The earlier claim you'd made, that I responded to

We have no deep passing game. How do we improve that paying Welker 9 million or more a year.

By signing a WR to threaten middle-deep and re-signing Welker

Simple to understand??

Yes, you're posts have been simple to understand. They've just been poor posts because you've been making the foolish underlying assumption that re-signing Welker = no other moves at WR.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I would give anything to see you guys say the things you have been saying here to Brady or Belichik, just to watch them shred you to pieces for your ignorance.

Ignorance is not knowing your Head Coach has 2 Cs in his last name

 

[MaineMan]

As Great as Welker is in the Slot he can be taken away by Elite Cover CB's. The Ravens pretty much shut him down only 53 yards for a Top Slot Reciever??? Hernandez and Gronk had more yards than him in that game. It's obvious both of them can do what he does inside the numbers. I am sure BB is weighing those factors into consideration.

Right. It's not as if Gronk and Ahern wouldn't have been just as successful if the Ravens defense hadn't been so focused on shutting down Welker.

 

[Deus Irae]

Reiss has made his contract guess on Welker:

My best guess at a meeting point: Four years, $34.5 million, with $20 million in bonuses/guarantees.

New England Patriots Mailbag -- Receivers in focus - ESPN Boston

 

[Ivan]

Nobody does that. You attribute people wanting a bigger WR to them being a "Madden" fanboy?

Ridiculous

I didn't say it diminished his value. I just used your stupid point about "Madden ring" against you.



Nobody cares about "Madden football" and repeating that makes you look foolish.

Not only do they make that argument but it was made in this thread and that's why i responded the way I did.

ct you play Madden? if you do we should play sometime...yes Welker does. But i cannot use the Pats in Madden i think they are too easy to defend. When i play people all i have to do is Double Welker and put a very fast CB or Safety on Gronk and the Patriots are pretty much shut down. In Madden and real life the Patriots are very weak on the outsides. That makes them easy to defend against good Defenses.

Other than you the people who look foolish are those suggesting the Patriots short change a player who is one of the best in football every year but whose height and forty time don't fit their idiotic ideals for the perfect fantasy football player. The facts don't matter to the haters just his measureables, and nothing he does changes that. They have no football argument so they just keep repeating the same draft magazine memes, regardless of the reality, which is that he is an amazing football player and losing him would be a huge hit to the Patriots, and NO facts say anything otherwise.

 

[Ivan]

Reiss has made his contract guess on Welker:



New England Patriots Mailbag -- Receivers in focus - ESPN Boston

If that were the case the Patriots should sign it as fast as they get it, that's a steal for NE.

 

[Ivan]

As for the topic of this thread, Welker is an awesome WR. He is particularly great IN THIS SYSTEM.

He is not even close to as valuable as Larry Fitz, or Megatron. Those two players would be all star WR's on any time, with any QB, regardless of who was in their supporting cast. If instead of Gronk, we had Ben Watson, and defenses could focus on Welker he would disappear.

He just simply doesn't have the physical tools to dictate what he's going to do on the field like those guys.

You mean like he "disappeared" before they had Gronkowski?