What do you think is holding up the Welker signing?

[Ivan]

To sum up the arguments being made here, Welker is too short, too slow, he plays inside, he's too old, he's only good because of the players around him,he's keeping them from getting another WR and he "limits their offense." He's worth as much as Leigh Bodden at best.



You guys want your arguments to be treated respectfully while you are as disrespectful to Welker as is possible. He has proven all of this wrong through his career and you don't budge from these arguments and that is absolutely ridiculous. I guess the critics were also right that jerry Rice and Emmitt Smith were just too slow.

Unbelievable.

 

[Ivan]

Ignorance is not knowing your Head Coach has 2 Cs in his last name

I have no problem with misspellings, stupidity is another thing altogether. Welker has proven the critics all wrong throughout his career but that doesn't matter, only his height and forty time. doesn't get any dumber than that.

My apology, I forgot to capitalize that d.

 

[Sfpat]

I haven't read the posts on this thread yet but my guess is the Pats want to carry over to next year the maximize salary cap possible, thus the delay in signing Welker. The signing won't happen until after the start of the new NFL year. They will tag him to retain rights, then extend him shortly after March 13.

 

[TheComeback]

Strikes me as the same as any other deal with a player.

The player asks for a contract that the team doesn't want to match, and eventually they either meet in the middle or part ways.

I'd be very surprised if they didn't find a way to bring Welker back.

 

[MaineMan]

So, in an effort to get a handle on where Welker has fit statistically among top WRs since he's been with the Pats, I listed the Top 40 pass-catchers (by total yards) for every season from 2007 through 2011. Then I filtered out the guys who'd appeared in the Top 40 fewer than four seasons (and guys who aren't actually playing anymore, like Moss, Owens, Mason, etc.). Then, I averaged their stats for their Top 40 seasons and ranked them by their receiving yard averages and tacked on their catch rates (CR) and (AFAIK) 2011 or 2012 base salaries (more for proportionate comparison than for exact $$ accuracy).

This is how it shook out (plus a couple addendums for "enlightening" comparison). Remember, the numbers below represent AVERAGE ANNUAL PRODUCTION for just the years the player has spent among the Top 40.

Andre Johnson (4): 91 rec, 1303 yds, 8.3 TDs, 17x 20+, 1.0 FUM, 397 YAC, 62 1Dn, 64% CR -- $6.5M
L. Fitzgerald (5): 93 rec, 1296 yds, 9.8 TDs, 18x 20+, 0.8 FUM, 341 YAC, 65 1Dn, 58% CR -- $12.5M
Roddy White (5): 94 rec, 1284 yds, 8.4 TDs, 17x 20+, 1.2 FUM, 385 YAC, 63 1Dn, 58% CR -- $5.5M
Megatron (4): 80 rec, 1279 yds, 11.3 TDs, 21x 20+, 1.8 FUM, 419 YAC, 58 1Dn, 55% CR -- $14M
Reggie Wayne (5): 94 rec, 1247 yds, 7.2 TDs, 17x 20+, 0.8 FUM, 361 YAC, 66 1Dn, 64% CR -- $6.0M

Wes Welker (5): 111 rec, 1221 yds, 6.2 TDs, 12x 20+, 0.8 FUM, 646 YAC, 63 1Dn, 74% CR -- $2.2M

S. Smith (CAR) (4): 77 rec, 1200 yds, 6.8 TDs, 19x 20+, 1.5 FUM, 419 YAC, 49 1Dn, 58% CR -- $7.8M
B. Marshall (5): 95 rec, 1188 yds, 6.4 TDs, 14x 20+, 1.8 FUM, 390 YAC, 60 1Dn, 59% CR -- $9.3M
V. Jackson (3): 62 rec, 1124 yds, 8.3 TDs, 18x 20+, 0.3 FUM, 216 YAC, 55 1Dn, 58% CR -- $11.4M
M. Colston (4): 83 rec, 1111 yds, 8.8 TDs, 15x 20+, 1.0 FUM, 321 YAC, 58 1Dn, 68% CR -- $3.0M
G. Jennings (5): 69 rec, 1108 yds, 9.2 TDs, 17x 20+, 0.8 FUM, 388 YAC, 47 1Dn, 61% CR -- $3.9M
Dwayne Bowe (4): 77 rec, 1085 yds, 8.0 TD, 16x 20+, 0.5 FUM, 368 YAC, 53 1DN, 56% CR -- $2.8M
DeS. Jackson (4): 57 rec, 1021 yds, 5.3 TDs, 18x 20+, 1.3 FUM, 317 YAC, 39 1Dn, 52% CR -- $560K
Jason Witten (5): 89 rec, 1014 yds, 5.4 TDs, 13x 20+, 0.6 FUM, 368 YAC, 50 1Dn, 70% CR -- $3.4M

Hakeem Nicks (3): 67 rec, 1011 yds, 8.0 TDs, 17x 20+, 1.0 FUM, 357 YAC, 47 1Dn, 60% CR -- $750K
A. Boldin (5): 73 rec, 928 yds, 6.8 TDs, 12x 20+, 1.8 FUM, 357 YAC, 47 1 Dn, 64% CR -- $6.0M
Brandon Lloyd: 74 rec, 1207 yds, 8.0 TDs, 19x 20+, 0.5 FUM, 173 YAC, 59 1 Dn, 49% CR ------

Oh. A friendly reminder to those who are unsure about giving Welker a contract at his age, but would love to give one to Brandon Lloyd - the two of them were born about six months apart.

 

[MaineMan]

Reiss has made his contract guess on Welker:



New England Patriots Mailbag -- Receivers in focus - ESPN Boston

I had it at 3-5 years at $25M-$40M (about $8M/year).

 

[Deus Irae]

I had it at 3-5 years at $25M-$40M (about $8M/year).

Given the franchise value for WR this year ($9.4 million), and the people who were claiming Welker to be the best receiver in the game during the season (also known as the "slightly deluded"), I'd say that both your number and Reiss' would be very favorable to the Patriots. If you take away the 'slot' issue which is likely the most difficult part of figuring out WWW's value, Welker's worth something at least in the neighborhood of the franchise number.

 

[Elijah T.]

That's pretty obvious, given that I quoted you verbatim on the two posts.



Yes, in fact, I do.



The earlier claim you'd made, that I responded to



By signing a WR to threaten middle-deep and re-signing Welker



Yes, you're posts have been simple to understand. They've just been poor posts because you've been making the foolish underlying assumption that re-signing Welker = no other moves at WR.

Nope.

You didn't answer any question in my posts. You must've been reading someone elses.

Your argument is "stats"....My argument is value of Welker as a slot receiver at 31 years old with no deep speed.

Why is Welker worth 9 million dollars a year? Your answer, stats...numbers.

My problem with that is, it still doesn't mean Welker can run a deep comeback, a deep post, or beat press coverage.

He's a one dimensional intermediate slot receiver... A good one... But he doesn't threaten the deep half of the field.

9 million dollar receivers should force you to protect the deep half.

Stats are like prostitutes, you can do anything with them.

 

[Deus Irae]

Nope.

You didn't answer any question in my posts. You must've been reading someone elses.

Your argument is "stats"....My argument is value of Welker as a slot receiver at 31 years old with no deep speed.

You either suffer from a terrible inability to read or an inability to tell the truth:

Welker is a talented player...no doubt.

But those numbers could easily be replaced by Branch, Gronkowski, Hernandez in the middle of the field.

The design of the system allowed Welker or Hernandez or Gronk (one of them) to be open on picks, rubs, seams, and crossing routes 15 yards inside the numbers.

The system and Brady's accuracy has much to do with Welker's numbers.

Here you are clearly talking about stats and numbers and, after I point out the weakness of your position by asking you to show how Welker's 122 catches would be divvied up by those three players, you changed your tactic:

The "effect" of those numbers can be replaced.

122 catches...How many of those were over 20 yards?

How many were outside the numbers?

These things matter to an offense. We need a player who can do more than make catches 15 yards inside the numbers.

The basis of my argument is value. How much value is Welker comparitevely to other players at his position making the same amount of money?

I'm not arguing Welkers numbers or ability. He's probably the best slot receiver in the league..But do we need to pay a slot receiver 9 million with our young tight ends?

In other words, you got caught making an inane argument and tried to weasel out of it. It's either that, or you need a reading comprehension course.

 

[BradyBranch39]

It's not just Welker. No team has announced a signing of a big ticket player, that I recall.

this. there are a ton of guys just like welker that haven't signed yet either.

 

[Jangles]

You mean like he "disappeared" before they had Gronkowski?

lol

Randy Moss caught 83 balls, for 13 TD's

The next year they had Gronk.

Try again

 

[Elijah T.]

You either suffer from a terrible inability to read or an inability to tell the truth:



Here you are clearly talking about stats and numbers and, after I point out the weakness of your position by asking you to show how Welker's 122 catches would be divvied up by those three players, you changed your tactic:



In other words, you got caught making an inane argument and tried to weasel out of it. It's either that, or you need a reading comprehension course.

Ok, bro...

If you had read my 10, or however many posts I've posted in this thread you would clearly understand my issue with Welker.

I purposely put "numbers" in quotations in response to your post to stress that you can replace the production of Welker in the middle of the field--- all his production is less than 20 yards downfield.

We have middle of the field threats. Gronkowski, Hernandez, Branch, Edelman, Vereen (74 catches at Cal)....They can all make catches inside the numbers.

What makes Welker worth so much? I would rather extend the tight ends and sign a proven outside receiver.

I like Welker....But I don't see what makes him a top tier receiver. He catches a ton of balls on crossing routes...Ok...Is it worth top dollar? He can't stretch the field.

So basically you're saying Gronkowski and Hernandez can't handle the middle of the field.

Again, what makes Welker worth so much?

 

[patsfan-1982]

im sure he would like to talk to at lest one other team just to see what he can get on the open market befor just signing what ever the pats offer

 

[SeymourTrophies]

I don't have any doubts as to the importance of Welker to the squad, but who do we see as a suitor for him at his age other than the Pats? We're more than likely bidding against ourselves. Welker isn't the final piece for any team who thinks they've got a shot next year, and no one in their right mind would give him four years at 9 mil a year when his skill set is so dependent on his ungodly quickness.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ok, bro...

If you had read my 10, or however many posts I've posted in this thread you would clearly understand my issue with Welker.

I purposely put "numbers" in quotations in response to your post to stress that you can replace the production of Welker in the middle of the field--- all his production is less than 20 yards downfield.

1.) You didn't put "numbers in quotations

2.) Yes, your posts show your issue with Welker. Your issue is your inability to assess the WR position.

We have middle of the field threats. Gronkowski, Hernandez, Branch, Edelman, Vereen (74 catches at Cal)....They can all make catches inside the numbers.

What makes Welker worth so much? I would rather extend the tight ends and sign a proven outside receiver.

The Giants knew that the best receiver on the Patriots, and the one that makes the Patriots go, is Welker. Your lack of understanding of that is an issue for you, not everyone else, to figure out.

I like Welker....But I don't see what makes him a top tier receiver. He catches a ton of balls on crossing routes...Ok...Is it worth top dollar? He can't stretch the field.

His job isn't to stretch the field. Different receivers have different roles, and that's nothing new. Taylor stretched the field while Rice worked more underneath, similar to the Harper/Irvin duo in Dallas. In Neither case was the receiver who 'stretched the field' considered the better player. Steve Largent's in the hall of fame, despite not being the sort of wideout who 'stretched the field'. Chris Carter's probably going to get into the Hall of Fame one of these years, and he was 'just' a possession receiver.

So basically you're saying Gronkowski and Hernandez can't handle the middle of the field.

No, I'm saying that they don't do it as well as Welker does, particularly when it comes to the super fast read/cut passes.

Again, what makes Welker worth so much?

He's the best short area receiver in the game. He's the most productive receiver in the NFL over the past 5 seasons, in terms of receptions. He's got more receiving yards than Calvin Johnson over the past 5 seasons, and is one of the league leaders in the category during that span.

You keep ignoring details of that sort.

 

[Brady2Gronk]

I think peoples opinion of Welker would be different had he not dropped that pass against the Giants. Letting Wes go would be a huge mistake a fortunately I dont see it happening. Some people are delusional.

 

[Ivan]

lol

Randy Moss caught 83 balls, for 13 TD's

The next year they had Gronk.

Try again

No need to try again, you guys made your minds up about Welker before he ever played a down in the NFL. He's too short, too slow, he's not a downfield receiver, and he "limits the offense," and he;s just a product of those around him. Even worse he limits your Madden production, which no doubt makes you crazy the Patriots ever signed him.

Everything Welker has accomplished is meaningless to the critics he has been proving wrong his entire career. That he has proven all of you dead wrong over and over again doesn't matter because you are fixated on bringing in a stud WR like Chad Jackson who is an unbelievable athlete with great measureables who can really stretch the field, and they can only get a prize like him if the get rid of Welker.


Bottom line, you guys should stick to Madden and fantasy football because none of you know one damn thing about the real thing, and your constant denial of Welker's abilities and claims he is a product of Gronkowski and Moss prove that.


There is no real debate here because those dumping on Welker are as wrong as those who wanted Cassel over Brady, and simply claiming they have a valid argument doesn't make it so given the proof available in terms of production for those arguing for him. All the arguments used against him have been used against him from day one, and he has proven them 100% wrong his entire career.

 

[Jangles]

No need to try again, you guys made your minds up about Welker before he ever played a down in the NFL. He's too short, too slow, he's not a downfield receiver, and he "limits the offense," and he;s just a product of those around him. Even worse he limits your Madden production, which no doubt makes you crazy the Patriots ever signed him.

lmao

Stop embarrassing yourself with this.

Everything Welker has accomplished is meaningless to the critics he has been proving wrong his entire career. That he has proven all of you dead wrong over and over again doesn't matter because you are fixated on bringing in a stud WR like Chad Jackson who is an unbelievable athlete with great measureables who can really stretch the field, and they can only get a prize like him if the get rid of Welker.

Nobody said they wanted to get rid of Welker. You're arguing against a point nobody is making.

Bottom line, you guys should stick to Madden and fantasy football because none of you know one damn thing about the real thing, and your constant denial of Welker's abilities and claims he is a product of Gronkowski and Moss prove that.

I'm sorry if your Homer glasses are too thick to see through, but your kidding yourself if you think Welker demands the kind of attention a guy like Gronk, or prime Randy Moss did.

There is no real debate here because those dumping on Welker are as wrong as those who wanted Cassel over Brady, and simply claiming they have a valid argument doesn't make it so given the proof available in terms of production for those arguing for him. All the arguments used against him have been used against him from day one, and he has proven them 100% wrong his entire career.

Again, you're missing the point entirely. Nobody said he isn't a great WR. He just doesn't deserve to be paid like he's top 5. Sorry if you can't wrap your head around that simple fact.

 

[Ivan]

Again, you're missing the point entirely. Nobody said he isn't a great WR. He just doesn't deserve to be paid like he's top 5. Sorry if you can't wrap your head around that simple fact.

Actually someone just claimed that he's just a product of Moss and Gronkowski.




Oh yeah, that was you.


Stick to Madden, you know nothing about real football.

 

[Ivan]

Again, you're missing the point entirely. Nobody said he isn't a great WR. He just doesn't deserve to be paid like he's top 5. Sorry if you can't wrap your head around that simple fact.

Feel free to show us the 5 WR who had better seasons, we'll be waiting.........




For a long long time.