Weis vs McDaniel

[TripleOption]

I have been thinking about the offense the Pats had when Weis was here vs. Josh.

When Weis was in NE, he had: much worse WR, a worse TE (Graham vs Watson), a less explosive RB (Smith/Dillon),a less talented OL, and Brady not as polished as he is now.

I think back to Super Bowl 38, when the Panthers came in with a vaunted front 4 similar to the Giants. In fact, the Giants remind me a lot of those Panthers.

Weis was afraid of the pressure that would be brought by the Panthers DL and he was able to keep Brady clean by running a lot of "Dash" (half-roll) and changing Brady's set up points so the DL couldn't rush a spot. He also ran more RB Screens, Draws, etc.

It is killing me now to think back to Brady either dropping 5-7 steps or sitting in the Shotgun with no adjustments.

All said and done, Weis got it done with less. I don't think McDaniel should be fired, but a lot of the blame for the offensive issues need to be placed at the feet of the guy who came up with the gameplan.

 

[Tpd122]

okay, I'm an Irish fan so I won't shoot you down for comparing McDaniel to Weis.

Weis decided to spend some of his off-season with the Pats, likely taking note of what they have done to be so successful, maybe he still has some hints for the Pats that will improve their team, personally I hope he both gives and receives much advice.

Weis was afraid of the pressure that would be brought by the Panthers DL and he was able to keep Brady clean by running a lot of "Dash" (half-roll) and changing Brady's set up points so the DL couldn't rush a spot. He also ran more RB Screens, Draws, etc.

The overuse screens hurt the Irish by the way, not important but just saying.

 

[TripleOption]

okay, I'm an Irish fan so I won't shoot you down for comparing McDaniel to Weis.

Weis decided to spend some of his off-season with the Pats, likely taking note of what they have done to be so successful, maybe he still has some hints for the Pats that will improve their team, personally I hope he both gives and receives much advice.



The overuse screens hurt the Irish by the way, not important but just saying.

Weis did a lot with very little to work with. I would give him a ton of the credit for making brady the player he is today.

His problem at ND is no talent right now. Screens are effective when the DL is in a hard rush upfield to attack the passer. When they don't fear the pass, nothing works. With the Patriots, you have to fear the pass. ND...not so much since Quinn left.

 

[Rocky]

I have been thinking about the offense the Pats had when Weis was here vs. Josh.

When Weis was in NE, he had: much worse WR, a worse TE (Graham vs Watson), a less explosive RB (Smith/Dillon),a less talented OL, and Brady not as polished as he is now.

I think back to Super Bowl 38, when the Panthers came in with a vaunted front 4 similar to the Giants. In fact, the Giants remind me a lot of those Panthers.

Both good points. Nobody can dispute how much Weis did with so little. Who was the Pats biggest weapon out of their three champoinships teams? Dillon? Branch? I just feel like Weis would have made better and more effective adjustments in this game. I have nothing really to back it up other than it didn't seem like Weis would ever allow such a beating to take place without at least trying something different. They barely ran any draw plays, the type of run you need to counteract a quick defensive line. Their plays were predictable. If you're going to be predictable, you should just go 5 wide and beat teams how you've beaten them all year!!

Also a good point that the Giants are a bit similar to Carolina. Remember how much we heard about their DL leading up to the game?? I specifically remember all those designed roll outs, resulting in some big plays downfield.

Just very frustrating--but who knows, maybe we're off base here, we're not the experts. Credit the Giants.

 

[TripleOption]

Both good points. Nobody can dispute how much Weis did with so little. Who was the Pats biggest weapon out of their three champoinships teams? Dillon? Branch? I just feel like Weis would have made better and more effective adjustments in this game. I have nothing really to back it up other than it didn't seem like Weis would ever allow such a beating to take place without at least trying something different. They barely ran any draw plays, the type of run you need to counteract a quick defensive line. Their plays were predictable. If you're going to be predictable, you should just go 5 wide and beat teams how you've beaten them all year!!

Also a good point that the Giants are a bit similar to Carolina. Remember how much we heard about their DL leading up to the game?? I specifically remember all those designed roll outs, resulting in some big plays downfield.

Just very frustrating--but who knows, maybe we're off base here, we're not the experts. Credit the Giants.

I'm no expert either, but I have been an OC for a while. I do know that if the gameplan ain't working, ya better change it.

Every defensive move has a counter. If they are upfield hard, hit them with the middle screen or draw. If they are chasing, run the Sprint Draw or Reverse etc...

The answer for an upfield DE like Osi (as we like to say "he's upfield like an a**hole") the answer is to run Draw underneath him. Let him come upfield and the OT runs him where he wants to go. Works on Freeney types very well.

The Giants gameplan was excellent, but the Pats have the talent to overcome it with proper adjustments. Charlie was excellent at it. Josh made his adjustments earlier in the season and even vs Jax...but he was undoubtedly outcoached in the Super Bowl.

 

[PF1996]

I'm no expert either, but I have been an OC for a while. I do know that if the gameplan ain't working, ya better change it.

Every defensive move has a counter. If they are upfield hard, hit them with the middle screen or draw. If they are chasing, run the Sprint Draw or Reverse etc...

The answer for an upfield DE like Osi (as we like to say "he's upfield like an a**hole") the answer is to run Draw underneath him. Let him come upfield and the OT runs him where he wants to go. Works on Freeney types very well.

The Giants gameplan was excellent, but the Pats have the talent to overcome it with proper adjustments. Charlie was excellent at it. Josh made his adjustments earlier in the season and even vs Jax...but he was undoubtedly outcoached in the Super Bowl.

That's the most frustrating part of this loss and something the apologists don't seem to want to acknowledge. The Dline is the only good part of the Giants D and the Pats should have been able to counter it, even if it meant going to a max protection scheme. It's not as though the Giants have a very good Dline, very good LB corp and very good DBs. They are a one dimensional D and they sold out on that one dimension and the Pats PRIMARY goal should have been to exploit that sell out. I think the Pats got arrogant and it cost them the game. Well, that and Brady's inaccuracy, since he missed two TD opportunies with Moss and Gaffney. Yet he's supposedly a "clutch QB".

 

[TripleOption]

That's the most frustrating part of this loss and something the apologists don't seem to want to acknowledge. The Dline is the only good part of the Giants D and the Pats should have been able to counter it, even if it meant going to a max protection scheme.

Remember when the Cowboys had a "blitz the house" tendency and Charlie kept 8 in to block and ran 2 man routes? Brady still hit the big play....or when we had real trouble with a speed rusher, Graham would stay in to block...

Releasing 5 WR is a great thing, until your OL can hold up and your QB is on his butt.

 

[unoriginal]

I'd like to point out that the Pats ran approximately 1 screen pass every 6 pass plays against the Giants, 9 in total.

On many plays, the Giants were doing what they did in the 2nd half of week 17, which was aggressively spying Faulk with a linebacker. On many plays it almost looked like a pass rush.

I think the Giants did an excellent job of coverage roulette by blitzing and sitting on all the short stuff, trusting the blitz to get to Brady before he could hit stuff down the field. We took our shots but never made them pay in the passing game, and Maroney never broke a long one like he did in Week 17 to punish their linebackers and safeties.

 

[PF1996]

I'd like to point out that the Pats ran approximately 1 screen pass every 6 pass plays against the Giants, 9 in total.

On many plays, the Giants were doing what they did in the 2nd half of week 17, which was aggressively spying Faulk with a linebacker. On many plays it almost looked like a pass rush.

I think the Giants did an excellent job of coverage roulette by blitzing and sitting on all the short stuff, trusting the blitz to get to Brady before he could hit stuff down the field. We took our shots but never made them pay in the passing game, and Maroney never broke a long one like he did in Week 17 to punish their linebackers and safeties.

I'm looking at the replay right now and the screens seemed to work. The ones that didn't work were primarily to WRs and the problem then seemed to be bad blocking by the Pats WRs. The biggest problem I see thus far is Kaczur, Brady/Koppen's lack of recognition of where the Giants were coming from and Brady's inaccuracy. This game should have been 21/3 Pats at the start of the 4th Qtr.

I'm really blaming the coaches even more now. The Pats Oline/Brady didn't seem prepared to see the Giants rush from different angles. It's like they expected the Giants to play like the Jags did, rush the same four from the same spots each time. Poor preparation and I'm not seeing any adjustment in the second half.


Pats secondary's biggest problem - slow recognition and reaction. Sanders just let a receiver run right in front of him and didn't react whatsoever (put up hands, jump in the passing lane, etc.) to allow the Giants first TD in 4th qtr. Secondary needs a complete overhaul (we have to let Samuel chase the money), there's a real lack of talent there.

 

[TripleOption]

I'd like to point out that the Pats ran approximately 1 screen pass every 6 pass plays against the Giants, 9 in total.

On many plays, the Giants were doing what they did in the 2nd half of week 17, which was aggressively spying Faulk with a linebacker. On many plays it almost looked like a pass rush.

I think the Giants did an excellent job of coverage roulette by blitzing and sitting on all the short stuff, trusting the blitz to get to Brady before he could hit stuff down the field. We took our shots but never made them pay in the passing game, and Maroney never broke a long one like he did in Week 17 to punish their linebackers and safeties.

Nine RB Screens? Or are you counting the Smoke Screens to the X/Z? If I could stomach it, i would watch again, but I certainly don't recall 9 Screens to Faulk.

 

[unoriginal]

Or are you counting the Smoke Screens to the X/Z?

Yes.

I imagine they ran the smoke screens to pull potential blitzers away from the middle of the field.

I also noticed that the Giants' d-line was sensitive to screen play in the game. Several times I saw Giants linemen quickly disperse into the traditional screen staging areas on simple play action passes instead of full-on rushing the QB. Perhaps the Pats noticed that on film and decided to scrap the slow-forming RB screen? I mean, the Giants play the Eagles twice a year so its not like they are strangers to it.

I'm sure there's a reason the Pats didn't do it, not that they forgot they had it in the playbook or what it was good for.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

I swear this is what's been bugging me most about this loss. All season I had this eerie feeling that McDaniels would in some game be a major factor and it finally happened, in the SUPER BOWL. God, the frustration will never never never go away even if we make it back again... unless its 19-0 of course.

 

[TripleOption]

Yes.

I imagine they ran the smoke screens to pull potential blitzers away from the middle of the field.

I also noticed that the Giants' d-line was sensitive to screen play in the game. Several times I saw Giants linemen quickly disperse into the traditional screen staging areas on simple play action passes instead of full-on rushing the QB. Perhaps the Pats noticed that on film and decided to scrap the slow-forming RB screen? I mean, the Giants play the Eagles twice a year so its not like they are strangers to it.

I'm sure there's a reason the Pats didn't do it, not that they forgot they had it in the playbook or what it was good for.

Then why no Dash? Angle Routes behind stunting ILB's? Draws underneath the DL?

 

[rhodeislandpatsfan]

Weis was very good but all too often it appeared that he was always putting together a highlight reel for job interviews. Josh McDaniel may have talent but I'm sorry he's only 31 yrs old and I believe the lack of experience showed. He led the team to 18-0 but remember he was given the keys to a Ferrari which was great until the race became a smash-up derby against Mack trucks

 

[unoriginal]

Then why no Dash? Angle Routes behind stunting ILB's? Draws underneath the DL?

I think you have a point about Dash. I don't know. Defensive ends taking really wide splits? Both Osi and Strahan were pretty far out there.

I think they tried to get behind those LBs with Welker, Gaffney and Faulk, but Faulk was often personally covered, and while Welker was sometimes successful across the middle of the field I think the interior pass rush kept Brady from seeing/delivering the ball there.

I've got one series of screenshots for the upcoming line thread where Gaffney is wide open on a dig route in the foreground, but Brady is instead starring into the jerseys of Kevin Dockerty and Gibril Wilson in the right side B gap because Hochstein wanted to chase his tackle on an angle rush. Kind of the story of the night really.

Draws I don't think would have worked given the way the defensive line was defeating blocks and how close the linebackers were playing the line of scrimmage. They weren't Tampa-2 dropping their MLB that's for sure.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Josh has the benefit of using the playbook made by Weiss. I'm sure there are some changes and tweaks in there. The plays to counter the pressure are in there also. I think Josh and Bill were thinking back to the SanDiego game last year when the chargers ran out of gas ... no other explanation works for me.

they figured the defense would hold them ... and for the most part they were right ... except for the freak hail mary pass ... we know the rest.

 

[Rob0729]

People have a far rosier rememberance of Weis than what was true. Our 2003 season, Weis was stuck in his run, run, pass mode early in games and quiting on the run late in games. Our third down percentage was horrible (37% or 15th in the league). Our overall offense was 17th.

Meanwhile last year (which you can argue that McDaniels had worse weapons than Weis ever did), we had the 11th ranked offense and a third down completion percentage of 42.5% (we attempted 3rd downs one less time than we did in 2003). We had 348 points in 2003 and 384 points in 2006.

I don't think comparing one game each against two very different teams with the offensive line out physically the defense line in one game and getting manhandled in another. The facts are that the offense has performed better with McDaniels at the helm than with Weis. Even when you compare years where Brady's weapons were bad in each (although a 3 years younger Troy Brown, David Patten, and Deion Branch are better WRs than Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel, Jabbar Gaffney prior to the playoffs last year, and an over the hill Troy Brown).

People want to trash McDaniels, but the offense and Brady have been better with him than with Weis. Part of it is the maturation of Brady, but another part is McDaniels is better than some people give him credit for.

 

[TripleOption]

I think you have a point about Dash. I don't know. Defensive ends taking really wide splits? Both Osi and Strahan were pretty far out there.

I saw that, and if you're like me, that screams to make them pay. If a DE is that wide, a kickout run (Power O etc...) will create huge seams. Wide Draws, and the Belly play they run with the FSG pulling seem appropriate...

 

[Rob0729]

Josh has the benefit of using the playbook made by Weiss. I'm sure there are some changes and tweaks in there. The plays to counter the pressure are in there also. I think Josh and Bill were thinking back to the SanDiego game last year when the chargers ran out of gas ... no other explanation works for me.

they figured the defense would hold them ... and for the most part they were right ... except for the freak hail mary pass ... we know the rest.

First, Weis didn't create his offense. He ran a modified Ray Perkins offense that was first run under Ron Erhardt and then Bill Parcells for the Giants.

Second, McDaniels' offense borrows a lot from Urban Meyer's spread offense which he and Belichick picked up a lot of tips on the last few years. I think his offense has a lot of different wrinkles than Weis' offense.