Waters' Locker Cleaned Out (Update: Reports Nameplate Taken Down)

[MoLewisrocks]

In my opinion, this whole thing about Waters is getting to be ridiculous.

It's one thing to worry about the play of the outside tackles, but another entirely to worry so much about the RG. Either way, the team has done more with less anyway. They will mask any apparent weaknesses on the line.

This is a team where depth, competition, and doing your job are of the upmost importance. If Waters would have been injured would Belichick be that concerned about it? No. He'd just expect the next guy in line to step up.

Connelly, Wendell, McDonald, and Thomas should be able to provide a reasonable alternative without too much of a downfall, and they are all potential parts of the team moving forward.

They offered Waters what appears to be a reasonable solution to finish out a small 2 yr deal (which HE wanted in the first place). He decided not to want to honor it. What are they supposed to do, curl up in the corner and cry?

We need to move on. If Belichick felt that Waters' return was 'that' important for the success of the 2012 team, he'd have offered him more money. Apparently, he isn't that concerned.

No, they didn't. They opted to try and cut his pay for no reason other than they thought they could...

I'm sure Waters was chuckling as he watched the pre season unfold. Whether he even asked for more (and there is no proof yet he did) after that is immaterial. They screwed the pooch with the haircut request. $2.15M for a pro bowl guard even at his age is peanuts. They gave Gallery a $400K signing bonus to be his place holder. His deal was for a total of $1.8M...straight up without incentives. I'm sure that is what led to the initial discussion of Waters taking a pay cut...fear of overpaying for Gallery's backup...

 

[TyronePoole]

There's no way the Pats can possibly be this in the wrong can they? They thought they had an "understanding?" wtf does that even mean? I've been against them on contract negotiations before but even this, as reported, seems farfetched to me. I'm going to reserve my outrage until the other shoe drops on this one.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

You missed a key line there:


And now he's done a 180, asking for a raise in return for playing another season.

If there was no issue at the time why didn't the deal get restructured then? Unlike some I didn't just fall off a turnip truck. And there is no proof he has asked for anything, and even if he did that doesn't change what they did... Asked him to take a $500K pay cut after they signed Gallery to a $1.8M deal. FWIW Dan Connolly's deal which we thought was as the Center of the future but now appears to be as a replacement RG averages $3.25M per.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

There's no way the Pats can possibly be this in the wrong can they? They thought they had an "understanding?" wtf does that even mean? I've been against them on contract negotiations before but even this, as reported, seems farfetched to me. I'm going to reserve my outrage until the other shoe drops on this one.

Back in 2005 when they extended Brady there was a holdup. Tom Curran did an article on the problem. Seems while the sides easily agreed on the parameters of the deal, the team just assumed Tom would be fine with his signing bonus being broken up into half a dozen increments. He wasn't. Misunderstanding the team said. They thought his people were down with that. About a week after the story broke, he got it in 2 increments.

 

[hodgey]

Looks like a return to rediculous personnel moves. BB can drop 18+ mil in dead money on crap, but wants to cut Waters salary? Sometimes I think he's crazy. It appears that this team has one true weakness its the o-line. Hope this stupid decision dont cost another 3-4 point loss in a superbowl. Waters should have gotten a raise!!

 

[TyronePoole]

Back in 2005 when they extended Brady there was a holdup. Tom Curran did an article on the problem. Seems while the sides easily agreed on the parameters of the deal, the team just assumed Tom would be fine with his signing bonus being broken up into half a dozen increments. He wasn't. Misunderstanding the team said. They thought his people were down with that. About a week after the story broke, he got it in 2 increments.

why are they even approaching a pro-bowl guard on a reasonable salary in the first place when they're $10+m under the salary cap? I almost don't care if Waters is being unreasonable here, or if there was a miscommunication or what, if this is true all they did is create a totally unnecessary situation out of nothing and it's weakened the team. It's so ludicrous that I want to wait until their side leaks or some more info comes out.

 

[Nordberg]

This Waters thing reminds me of one of my friends that owns a duplex, and rents out the other side to this little lady that is hardly ever home, pays her rent on time, and doesn't make any noise.....ever. The perfect tennant so to speak.

This friend makes a ton of money and charges the woman $ 1,000 per month. So last month he decides to go up on the rent $100 dollars. Not because electricity, water, or taxes went up.... He went up because someone told him he could get a bit more.

What happens next? The lady moves out....

I told him....I hope he gets some loud pain in the ass as his next tennant...Serves him right

That is exactly what the Patriots have done with Brian Waters. Why would you even ask him to take less? You already had him on the cheap.

Part of me hopes that whoever is at right guard on Sunday gets destroyed and Brady takes a pounding. (without getting hurt of course)

The Patriots piss me off with money sometimes.

 

[Danger Zone]

Any chance that the lady that moved out can play OG?

 

[Sciz]

If there was no issue at the time why didn't the deal get restructured then?

Restructuring a contract still requires his signature. I don't know what they had against mailing it to him, faxing it to him, sending someone out there, etc, but there are lots of reasons it didn't happen. Maybe he refused to do it so his options were always open. I don't know.

And there is no proof he has asked for anything,

There's also no "proof" that they asked him to do anything to his contract. Heck, I haven't even seen any proof that he actually has five kids to stay at home with. If you refuse to talk about anything but facts, then go talk about something other than football.

and even if he did that doesn't change what they did... Asked him to take a $500K pay cut

There's no proof of this!
Even then, we don't know how much of a pay cut it is, if at all. The potential to earn all the money or even more could have still been there. It just would have given the Pats some protection in case Waters got hurt, which makes sense considering that they didn't get to control his conditioning all offseason.

after they signed Gallery to a $1.8M deal. FWIW Dan Connolly's deal which we thought was as the Center of the future but now appears to be as a replacement RG averages $3.25M per.

What do these have to do with anything?

 

[Run DMC]

It 's time for Don Vito Corleone(Kraft) to make him an offer he can't refuse. This penny wise pound foolish stuff is the main reason this team doesn't have 5-6 super bowl rings. I agree with Fleger, I have zero sympathy for these whiny billionaires nickel and diming good employees like Waters. and the NFL refs for that matter.

 

[TheBeers]

Seriously we have a couple vague reports and some speculation from a couple (albeit good) local beat reporters with about as little access to a team in pro sports as there is. We really have absolutely no idea what the whole story is. Best not to get your panties all up in a bunch before (and realistically if) we get the whole story. I'm with Ty Poole on this one.. the whole thing just doesn't sound right.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Restructuring a contract still requires his signature. I don't know what they had against mailing it to him, faxing it to him, sending someone out there, etc, but there are lots of reasons it didn't happen. Maybe he refused to do it so his options were always open. I don't know.



There's also no "proof" that they asked him to do anything to his contract. Heck, I haven't even seen any proof that he actually has five kids to stay at home with. If you refuse to talk about anything but facts, then go talk about something other than football.


There's no proof of this!
Even then, we don't know how much of a pay cut it is, if at all. The potential to earn all the money or even more could have still been there. It just would have given the Pats some protection in case Waters got hurt, which makes sense considering that they didn't get to control his conditioning all offseason.


What do these have to do with anything?

If you don't get it yet there is nothing else I can say that will enlighten you.

 

[Ring 6]

Yeah. He's playing in his final year. Even that was in question when he brought up retirement the past 2 seasons in KC and after the SB.

To me that = a one year rental, meaning he will be here for one year.

As far as 'depth' at the interior positions, please tell me that you're joking right?

It's one of the deepest positions on the entire team.

The most basic philosophy of this franchise over the past 11 years is that no one player is irreplacable and the next man up needs to be ready.
I'm not sure Brian Waters, at this stage of his career after blowing off camp is worth obliterating that tenant over.

 

[mgteich]

No, we don't know the "whole" story. We never do. In any case, it seems unlikely that we will see Waters showing up anytime soon.

At this point, it "seems" that the pats have simply screwed the pooch on this one. Our choices are now to trade him to a team that he will show up for or receive no compensation at all.

And, no, all this effort at cap reduction is nonsense unless the team expected Waters to make less under the new arrangement. Lowering the cap with NLTBE incentives just moves the cap hit to next year. The total cap hit would be the same if the total money was the same to Waters. One must conclude that the total was less.

 

[Patstopia]

If you don't get it yet there is nothing else I can say that will enlighten you.

No offense but I am still lost.

Lets say the team ask him to restructure and he said no. How does that keep him out of camp? Would he not still have a valid contract? Wouldn't the appropriate thing to do be to show up at camp and force them to pay you or cut you? Am I missing something here?

 

[Sciz]

This seems to be my biggest problem with this thread. Everyone asks like the Pats have no reason to ask Waters to take any type of pay cut. Well I've got a good reason for you. He skipped all of training camp.

Imagine the precedent that'd be set if Waters got away with skipping all of training camp, and then showing up three days before the regular season and collecting his entire contract. Wilfork would do the same thing in a year. So would Mankins. Heck, Ninkovich is getting up there in age, and Spikes is young but injury prone and good enough to get away with not showing up.

There had to be some kind of "give" for Waters. Belichick was an economics major, and it's called opportunity cost. They supposedly agreed on something that made a lot of sense. Let Waters not show up, but make him earn his money by being healthy. If he doesn't put in the work that he needs to, then there's a higher chance of injury, and he doesn't get that money. If he stays healthy and plays well all season, then the Patriots commend him for staying in good shape by giving him full pay despite missing all of training camp.

That way, when Wilfork calls Belichick next June saying that he wants a few months off, then BB can ask him if he's willing to risk his paycheck on his health.

Belichick isn't in the business of giving up leverage. Sometimes, you have to be a little hard on guys to keep the rest of them in line. I'll make a slight assumption and assume that the contract restructuring was Waters' opportunity cost for skipping training camp. If that's the case and Waters is now asking for a raise, then I fully support what the Pats are doing right now. He was given what he wanted in return for something else. Now he wants both to go his way. If that's the case, then I think that's ridiculous.

 

[Sfpat]

I would guess the Pats lowered his base in return for letting him skip camp, i.e. put some of the risk of injury on Waters. The Pats probably weren't sure what kind of shape he would be in after skipping camp. One hamstring injury and the Pats would be on the hook for the full amount. Seems like a prudent and reasonable step.

(Sciz beat me to the punch)

 

[Ring 6]

No, we don't know the "whole" story. We never do. In any case, it seems unlikely that we will see Waters showing up anytime soon.

At this point, it "seems" that the pats have simply screwed the pooch on this one. Our choices are now to trade him to a team that he will show up for or receive no compensation at all.

And, no, all this effort at cap reduction is nonsense unless the team expected Waters to make less under the new arrangement. Lowering the cap with NLTBE incentives just moves the cap hit to next year. The total cap hit would be the same if the total money was the same to Waters. One must conclude that the total was less.

???????????
You say you dont know the story then bloviate as if you do.

 

[Sciz]

If you don't get it yet there is nothing else I can say that will enlighten you.

I was thinking exactly the same with you. Maybe I've just taken too many economics classes and am completely overanalyzing what's going on inside Belichick's mind, but if Waters agreed to redo his contract and now wants a raise instead, then I have no problem calling that a completely s***ty thing to do.

 

[Sciz]

No offense but I am still lost.

Lets say the team ask him to restructure and he said no. How does that keep him out of camp? Would he not still have a valid contract? Wouldn't the appropriate thing to do be to show up at camp and force them to pay you or cut you? Am I missing something here?

Exactly. But now that original contract isn't enough. He wants more. That's my problem here.