Two Rookie Linebackers Is Enough

[tombonneau]

And why not?? It takes time to learn the LB position in the NE scheme..or maybe you have NOT realized that at all.

I'm starting to think this is a myth. Seau got it right away. Vrabel got it right away. Colvin. Adalius pretty much got TWO positions right away. And Mayo appears to be on his way.

You know who didn't get it right away?

Chad Brown. Monty Beisel. Justin Kurpeikis. Victor Hobson isn't getting it right away.

Really, looking back at BB LBs, guys either get it or don't. Maybe the only guy you could say was borderline was TBC.

I think there is a popular myth that because BB prefers vets who know the system -- Phifer, Cox, McGinest, Ted Johnson -- that "it takes awhile to get it."

That doesn't appear to be reality. It appears that certain LBs can be successful in the system, and some can't. And more time in the system might make guys who get it better, but it won't magically make guys who don't good.

 

[JFK]

Would anyone be suprised if Bru gets cut despite the cap penalty...I think he should have retired and become an assistant coach for the LBs. Yea, he is smart but so is Vrabes & AD. Mayo is not dumb either..I'll rather Seau than Bru

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Would anyone be suprised if Bru gets cut despite the cap penalty...I think he should have retired and become an assistant coach for the LBs. Yea, he is smart but so is Vrabes & AD. Mayo is not dumb either..I'll rather Seau than Bru

Well, yeh, I'd be surprised...for one I'd expect BB would have a heart to heart with him and give him the option of retiring first. For two, he's still playing well...IMHO of course.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm starting to think this is a myth. ... It appears that certain LBs can be successful in the system, and some can't. And more time in the system might make guys who get it better, but it won't magically make guys who don't good.

A valid point. Now, how do we find those guys who will be successful in the system?

 

[AzPatsFan]

Eh, I did not see much out of him on Thursday, if he does something in the next 3 games, maybe I let him back in. He has had his time, I would be sweating blood at this point if he is on the feild since I would suspect the opposing O would attack him every play.


Tried that last year, gotten beaten like sheet metal. He had nothing left and it showed. The team lost a prospect on the chance he could be a "experienced" reserve and in that role on the outside he got killed.



Alexander has had several years now to step-up. I have not seen anything to indicate he has. YMMV. I give Guyton the nod and see what he can do. Guyton is the riskier bet, but IMHO a ton more upside.



Why? What has Hobson done in the NFL that buys him that much patience. If does not perform as well as someone else, cut him. I would be fine with cutting him and keeping Alexander if Alexander is better.



I think it all depends. If they show enough ST ability to replace Alexander and Izzo then they can stay. If not then you risk losing them. Thats what we pay Belicheck and Pioli for.

Hobson has started for 5 seasons. What has Alexander done? Has he started even 5 games. Doubtful.

Izzo makes it if Aiken's season is over. But Aiken was brought in to captain ST, and he is half a decade younger.

 

[tombonneau]

A valid point. Now, how do we find those guys who will be successful in the system?

If I had the answer, I wouldn't be posting on a message board.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

If I had the answer, I wouldn't be posting on a message board.

We need a "harumph" smilie. :snob:

 

[PatriotNMP43]

Good points, i agree, you either '' get it '' or you don't. Seau and Ad get it whereas Beisel and Brown don't have what it takes. I am looking forward to watching potentially the best front 7 we have had yet.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Hobson has started for 5 seasons. What has Alexander done? Has he started even 5 games. Doubtful.

Izzo makes it if Aiken's season is over. But Aiken was brought in to captain ST, and he is half a decade younger.

1 game (2006 AFCC at Indy - if you aren't counting STs assignments as "starting").

Aiken was brought in to compete at WR and for a STs slot, that he could be an alternative to Izzo as STs Captain had yet to be determined. I'm more anxious to have him as a WR then a STs' ace.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Good points, i agree, you either '' get it '' or you don't. Seau and Ad get it whereas Beisel and Brown don't have what it takes. I am looking forward to watching potentially the best front 7 we have had yet.

I felt Brown understood the defense well enough, he just didn't have the sand in his shorts to execute as well as we'd have liked - there was a reason BB kept giving him chances, he did know his job.

 

[patman52]

Going back to the original topic, I want Izzo replaced if one of the other rookies shows enough. This is Bruschi's last year and next year will probably be Vrabel's.

I expect that Woods will get 15-20 snaps on the outside. as part of the rotation.

I would not worry about Hobsun being a little slow catching on at this point.

 

[14thDragon]

I have to totally disagree on that one..there are many starters on teams that would not be able to break that so called "AARP" starting lineup so the fact that Alexander could not really means zilch.

I disagree, I think a decent starter would have easily broken into that rotation. Even if they were only in to give those guys some breathier time.

Who said Guyton was picking it up quicker?? Again..you show a real naivete for understanding the linebacking system. By the way, would you have clipped Bruschi as well?? He took a few years learning the system.

The fact he has moved up from the 3s to the 2s and Hobson is trending down. I put stock in those things.

Who of that list has 4 or 5 years of ST experience?? And please don't put AD in that category..there are a number of vets on the team that play on STs...but a team needs one or two experienced ST players. Apparently, experience means nothing to you on special teams. I think Seely would differ on that.
Again..special teams is about a third of the game..and experience matters.

Well other then Evans and Woods?

You're right I'm not really going to be looking to keep guys that after 5 years in the leauge are special teamers if I think someone else has better potential. I think Peas would prefer to go it my way.

You prefer the experience on special teams. Fine, I would disagree.

 

[Pats726]

Really, looking back at BB LBs, guys either get it or don't. Maybe the only guy you could say was borderline was TBC.

And Bruschi took a few years....and...

 

[Pats726]

I disagree, I think a decent starter would have easily broken into that rotation. Even if they were only in to give those guys some breathier time. .

So you do not think there were starters on other teams that could not break that starting lineup? Maybe you have a problem with how the coaching staff substituted...or maybe a lack of appreciation of how solid a lineup that was..calling them the AARP goes show your lack of understanding..in fact THAT is pretty insulting tpo that team..

The fact he has moved up from the 3s to the 2s and Hobson is trending down. I put stock in those things. .

It still doesn't make him a starter BFD...he was given an opportunity..

Well other then Evans and Woods? .

Gee..Woods has 2 years in the league and 4 or 5 years ST experience?? Counting college as well?? If you want to make Evans ST captain..whatever floats your boat..

You're right I'm not really going to be looking to keep guys that after 5 years in the leauge are special teamers if I think someone else has better potential. I think Peas would prefer to go it my way. You prefer the experience on special teams. Fine, I would disagree.

Peas might...but I think CoachB might have other ideas..a team needs to have a couple of ST vets..who have seen a great deal. Thatis why players like Aikens and Izzo stay in the league..because their experience is needed.

 

[14thDragon]

So you do not think there were starters on other teams that could not break that starting lineup? Maybe you have a problem with how the coaching staff substituted, or maybe a lack of appreciation of how solid a lineup that was. Calling them the AARP goes show your lack of understanding, in fact THAT is pretty insulting to that team.

No solid starters. I am sure there were some starters that becuase of injury, system, or bad judgement would not of cracked the lineup, like guys from the Bengals, or the Saints. But a decent ILB would have cracked that rotation.

The rotation was solid when it was AD, Bruschi and Seau. Afterwards I thought it was exploitable.

It still doesn't make him a starter BFD. He was given an opportunity.

Right, and I thought he did well with it and earns more of them.

Gee..Woods has 2 years in the league and 4 or 5 years ST experience? Counting college as well? If you want to make Evans ST captain, whatever floats your boat.

Sorry, I was thinking 2-3 instead of 4-5. But I would be more then fine with Evans at ST captian.

Peas might, but I think CoachB might have other ideas. A team needs to have a couple of ST vets, who have seen a great deal. That is why players like Aikens and Izzo stay in the league because their experience is needed.

Hey, I might have different ideas on things. I do not think it is an imperative to have several special team verterans if it means losing out on overall talent. I do think it is an imperative to develop potential starters in positions where your team will soon be losing the ones you have.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Don't forget that Guyton was the FASTEST linebacker at the combine.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers?tabIndex=0

Yes, even faster than Mayo. If he's picking up the system pretty well, I say that you keep him as ILB/OLB depth and cut Alexander whom I see zero value for other than ST.

We can hope that Redd makes it down to the PS but I doubt it. Ruud should be able to make it though.

 

[Metaphors]

Don't forget that Guyton was the FASTEST linebacker at the combine.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers?tabIndex=0

Yes, even faster than Mayo. If he's picking up the system pretty well, I say that you keep him as ILB/OLB depth and cut Alexander whom I see zero value for other than ST.

We can hope that Redd makes it down to the PS but I doubt it. Ruud should be able to make it though.

:agree: I still see Guyton as a developmental guy because his speed didn't translate to results at Tech as much as you would hope. In his defense, the Tech defense wasn't overly impressive.

Guyton could be a guy that just clicks immediately with a defense/scheme/coaches/teammates and his physical skills fill a niche on the field nicely. Probably too much to hope for but I'm a glass-half-full kind of guy.

I'm hopeful that Guyton makes the 53 and Redd somehow stays with the Pats...but I agree with you that the more potential Redd shows in preseason games, the less likely he makes it through waivers.

 

[Richter]

Don't forget that Guyton was the FASTEST linebacker at the combine.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers?tabIndex=0

Yes, even faster than Mayo. If he's picking up the system pretty well, I say that you keep him as ILB/OLB depth and cut Alexander whom I see zero value for other than ST.

We can hope that Redd makes it down to the PS but I doubt it. Ruud should be able to make it though.

This is why I think Guyton sticks, if he keeps up his current level of performance. It's hard to find guys with his kind of raw, straight-line speed and genuine linebacker size. Maybe he's nothing more than a situational guy, but in today's NFL, he could play a potentially valuable role as a coverage linebacker from a variety of spots, a matchup guy to deal with tight ends and running backs on passing downs. His change of direction skills looked better than advertised in the first preseason game, but it's hard to tell from such a small sampling. I'd rather take a shot on him improving that area of his game and living up to his billing as Georgia Tech's best defensive player last year than hanging on to a retread like Hobson that seems to be having trouble picking things up, and then bring back Seau if the Pats need another veteran linebacker.

 

[tombonneau]

And Bruschi took a few years....and...

No he didn't. BB arrived in 2000 and Bruschi played fine. So did Ted Johnson. And McGinest. Again, maybe some of them were familiar with BB's system from his previous stint, but if that were the case, they all played fine in the system in 1996.

Face it, the "It takes awhile for LBs to play well in BB's system" is a myth. It can't be proven; in fact, quite the opposite, it can be disproven, which I think I've helped do.

It might take a certain type of player to excel in the system, but once that player is found and put in place, he seems to get the system right away.

However, the wrong type of player doesn't seem to get it, no matter how much they play in it.

 

[Richter]

No he didn't. BB arrived in 2000 and Bruschi played fine. So did Ted Johnson. And McGinest. Again, maybe some of them were familiar with BB's system from his previous stint, but if that were the case, they all played fine in the system in 1996.

Face it, the "It takes awhile for LBs to play well in BB's system" is a myth. It can't be proven; in fact, quite the opposite, it can be disproven, which I think I've helped do.

It might take a certain type of player to excel in the system, but once that player is found and put in place, he seems to get the system right away.

However, the wrong type of player doesn't seem to get it, no matter how much they play in it.

When Bruschi was drafted, he was moved to OLB, so his experience in Belichick's system would have been primarily there. That he made the move to ILB fairly quickly with a high level of success reinforces your point somewhat. That said, all the guys you've mentioned were veterans at that point. I think you probably need either a well of experience to draw from, or tremendous instincts and considerable physical tools to excel in the Patriots' defensive system from day one. Good players find a way, regardless. This just isn't a system where a guy with amazing physical tools and a 10-cent brain can run sideline to sideline and hope to excel.