Troy Brown as Assistant Coach and Possible Mid-Year WR

[RayClay]

Well, it has not been confirmed yet that it is legal.

One of the biggest factors indicating that it is not is that not one of the 32 teams has done this. Ever. This in spite of the fact that it would be a terrific place to put a player rather than IR. On IR he can never come back. Make him a coach and you can bring him back for the playoffs. If this is legal, why has no one done this?

If someone can point to a guy who retired, became a coach, then became a player, all for the same team in the same year, then it is obviously legal.

But as long as no one has ever done it, (the fact that we can't find one doesn't mean that, but go on)it is safe (to me) to assume that it is not legal.

An introductory logic course would be a good investment.

Anything we can't prove has happened has to be illegal? WOW!!

 

[fgssand]

An introductory logic course would be a good investment.

Anything we can't prove has happened has to be illegal? WOW!!

Really not much different than practice squad in that teams can pluck anyone off of a teams PS and activate them for their own team - just as a coach would be a free agent, able to sign with any team that he wanted too - if said team wanted to sign the player.

All of which says that if TB wants to be a replacement player - he could. Practice squad is probably better as he then stays in playing shape working and practicing with the team.

I doubt it would happen though, coach or PS - he either signs on (I think he will) or hangs 'em up and doesn't look back.

I think his leadership and presence is needed, not to mention his skills, which he still very much has.

We really need this football player (see SD - playoffs 2006/7), make no mistake about that.

 

[DaBruinz]

Get a clue.

Said by the guy who thinks that the Pats should be fined for no reason at all.

I have no problem with a PLAYER being a coach. That's not what we're talking about.

The question was whether we could HIDE Troy from the 53 man roster (and possibly the salary cap) by employing him as a coach.

No one is talking about "HIDING" Troy Brown from the 53 man roster by employing him as a coach. That is what you are missing. What was said was to hire him as a coach and, if/when he is healthy and they need him, offer him a playing position. There is NOTHING wrong with that no matter what you think.

If such a procedure were plainly legal, then big market teams like the Patriots would hire 10 players as coaches, then activate them as needed. The 53 man roster would become meaningless for big market teams and suffocating for small market teams.

WOW. You truly don't know what you are talking about. What HEALTHY player is going to want to sit there and be a coach? None. Brown isn't healthy. So, offer him the position to keep him with the team and if/when he is healthy and he can pass a physical, sure, let him sign a player contract. That contract would still count against the cap.

You're hypothesizing is such a total exaggeration that its truly amazing.

The whole idea of a salary cap that promotes equality amongst the franchises and has been responsible for the modern day success of the NFL would be compromised.

If you weren't smart enough to understand what I was saying you could have asked. Instead you prove your stupidity.

You are the only one who proved any stupidity here. It had nothing to do with how smart I am. I understood your post clearly. Maybe its you with the problem. Maybe its you who didn't communicate properly because you got more negative reactions than positive ones.

If the Patriots go up to player X and say "I'll give you a million dollars this year to coach for us and not play, and if we need you during the season, you can become a player for us at that time" without informing the league about this arrangement, and they are caught, you can be absolutely certain that they would be penalized draft picks.

It wouldn't happen. For one, a healthy player isn't going to want to sit on the sidelines coaching, regardless of how much money is paid. For another, there is so much that goes on that the league doesn't do a damn thing about its pathetic. Particularly tampering. Not to mention that there is nothing about this that circumvents the salary cap.

What you seem to be failing to understand is that there are two different contracts. One for the Coaching job and one for the playing. If the person is coaching, that one is enforced. If he starts playing, then the coaching one is voided and the playing one goes against the cap and is enforced.

 

[DaBruinz]

Yes, the fact that both sides can present a strong case shows that it is a topic worthy of discussion, and that both sides have valid points.

One side calling the other ridiculous and stupid is simply ... ridiculous and stupid.

I wasn't calling anyone ridiculous and stupid. I was calling the way it was presented ridiculous and stupid. And I stand by that because he offered up no facts to support his case in his original post. None whatsoever.

He still has yet to say how it would violate the cap if Troy Brown was signed to a coaching contract because he's not 100% and then signed to a player contract later on (cancelling the coaching contract).

 

[solman]

Said by the guy who thinks that the Pats should be fined for no reason at all.

Huh? When did I ever say that the Pats should be fined?

No one is talking about "HIDING" Troy Brown from the 53 man roster by employing him as a coach. That is what you are missing. What was said was to hire him as a coach and, if/when he is healthy and they need him, offer him a playing position. There is NOTHING wrong with that no matter what you think.

You are clearly confused and clueless. To refresh your memory, here is the original post in this thread, the one I responded directly to.

Is there anything in the rules that would prevent the Patriots from hiring Troy Brown as an Assistant Coach of some sort with the wink/nod/understanding that he could possibly be added to the active player roster (later in the season in case of need)? In this way, he could be actively involved with the team until they needed to activate him of the shadow roster to fill in for possible WR/DB injuries.

The answer is clearly YES. It is blatantly illeagal to EVER have ANY kind of wink/nod/understanding with any player that is not disclosed in their contract. It is a direct violation of XXV(1) in the CBA. There is absolutely no ambiguity. The commissioner may penalize the Patriots by up to TWO first round picks and $5.25M.

THE END

 

[DarrylS]

If we do Polian will follow with some kind of rule..

One consideration not posted here is the financial side, an assistant coach makes maybe 100K and a player making the vet minimum is about 500K, neither is chump change, but this might get a little mucky.

 

[solman]

I wasn't calling anyone ridiculous and stupid. I was calling the way it was presented ridiculous and stupid. And I stand by that because he offered up no facts to support his case in his original post. None whatsoever.

He still has yet to say how it would violate the cap if Troy Brown was signed to a coaching contract because he's not 100% and then signed to a player contract later on (cancelling the coaching contract).

Any money that you pay to a player counts against the cap. This is true even if they never make it onto the active roster. The Patriots have paid several practice squad players as if they were on the roster as an incentive to keep them from signing with other teams. All of this money counts against the cap. If the Patriots pay Troy Brown $500K to be a coach and wink wink nod nod join the club if we need you, and he never joins the club, that is $500K paid to retain a player that never gets counted against the cap.

If the Patriots want Troy Brown as a coach/player, they can legally sign him to a deal. He will count $435K against the cap. They can put him on PUP or not.

If the Patriots enter into a wink wink nod nod arrangement with Troy Brown to do the exact same thing without signing him to a deal, it gives them two advantages:

1. They don't have a $435K charge against the cap.
2. They can add him to the roster outside of the weeks 7-10 window.

 

[DaBruinz]

Huh? When did I ever say that the Pats should be fined?



You are clearly confused and clueless. To refresh your memory, here is the original post in this thread, the one I responded directly to.



The answer is clearly YES. It is blatantly illeagal to EVER have ANY kind of wink/nod/understanding with any player that is not disclosed in their contract. It is a direct violation of XXV(1) in the CBA. There is absolutely no ambiguity. The commissioner may penalize the Patriots by up to TWO first round picks and $5.25M.

THE END

No, its not a violation of the CBA, no matter how much you want to sit there and stomp your feet with your fingers in your ears claiming that it is. Why? For the same reason its not a violation of the CBA to put in a player's contract stipulations that he has to work with the team's sponsors on advertising deals. Just like it wasn't a violation last year that Troy Brown got that 800K advertising deal with Dunkin Donuts after he re-signed with the Pats.

So, please stop trying to pretend you know and understand the CBA better than anyone else on here.

BTW, The Broncos only got fined a 3rd round pick for their violations and they were well into the millions on it. The 49ers lost a bit more and they had violations in the 20 million range or so...

 

[DaBruinz]

Any money that you pay to a player counts against the cap.

ONLY when he is performing PLAYER duties. NOT if he is COACHING.

This is true even if they never make it onto the active roster.

The Patriots have paid several practice squad players as if they were on the roster as an incentive to keep them from signing with other teams. All of this money counts against the cap.

Tell me something I haven't know for 10+ years.

If the Patriots pay Troy Brown $500K to be a coach and wink wink nod nod join the club if we need you, and he never joins the club, that is $500K paid to retain a player that never gets counted against the cap.

True. And it wouldn't be counted against the cap because Troy never played and never had a PLAYER CONTRACT. That is the difference. And that is what you are over-looking. Only PLAYER contracts count against the cap.

If the Patriots want Troy Brown as a coach/player, they can legally sign him to a deal. He will count $435K against the cap. They can put him on PUP or not.

They can sign Troy to a coaching deal and then sign him to a player deal when he is healthy and its perfectly legal. Nothing you have shown has proven otherwise. Its not a means to circumvent the cap because Troy is acting in a particular capacity. If his capacity changes and he becomes a player, relinquishing his coaching duties, then only his player contract would count against the cap (pro-rated).

If the Patriots enter into a wink wink nod nod arrangement with Troy Brown to do the exact same thing without signing him to a deal, it gives them two advantages:

1. They don't have a $435K charge against the cap.
2. They can add him to the roster outside of the weeks 7-10 window.

1) You'd have to prove that it was a wink wink nod nod agreement, which is next to impossible. Also, you keep glossing over facts like Troy Brown still recovering from his injury and not being ready.

2) They can add a player at ANY time as long as they don't go over the 80 man limit during the off-season or the 53 man/ 8 man practice squad limits and as long as they don't go over the salary cap.

3) Signing Brown, who is currently unable to pass a physical, to a coaching contract doesn't violate the CBA. Signing Brown to a Player contract after he becomes healthy doesn't violate the CBA. Saying to Brown that if/when he's healthy and the Pats need him, they'd be willing to sign him to a player contract isn't in violation of the CBA.

 

[solman]

No, its not a violation of the CBA, no matter how much you want to sit there and stomp your feet with your fingers in your ears claiming that it is. Why? For the same reason its not a violation of the CBA to put in a player's contract stipulations that he has to work with the team's sponsors on advertising deals. Just like it wasn't a violation last year that Troy Brown got that 800K advertising deal with Dunkin Donuts after he re-signed with the Pats.

STOP MAKING STUFF UP AND READ THE CBA! The penalties apply to undisclosed contract provisions. As the original poster described them "wink/nod/understanding"s. The provisions requiring players to put in promotional appearances are disclosed in the agreements in black and white. The entire dollar amount of the agreements counts against the salary cap (including any money related to promotional appearances).

If the Patriots had told Troy Brown's agent "sign this deal, and we'll get Dunkin Donuts to give you an extra $X", it would have been a blatant violation. They didn't (I hope).

So, please stop trying to pretend you know and understand the CBA better than anyone else on here.

I keep on quoting the CBA at you, and all you have in response are baseless assertions. You say "No, its not a violation of the CBA". Now its your turn. What part of the CBA allows a team to pay a player money, not count that money under the salary cap, not count that player against the roster, and then reach an implicit agreement that should the team have need of the player's services, he will join the team on the field. Tell me which section of the CBA you're pulling this stuff from. (BTW, your posterior is NOT part of the CBA.)

BTW, The Broncos only got fined a 3rd round pick for their violations and they were well into the millions on it. The 49ers lost a bit more and they had violations in the 20 million range or so...

If a team other than the Partiots had Bronco sized violations, the penalty would be substantially larger today, but probably less than a first. If the Patriots were the violator, Goodell would have to hit them hard (I'm still thinking slightly less than a first), not so much to show that he is in charge as Peter King suggested, but to avoid exacerbating the current division between big market and small market owners.

Anyway, what penalty could possibly make this worth it for the Patriots (who can legally keep Troy on the team at a salary cap cost of $435K.

 

[solman]

True. And it wouldn't be counted against the cap because Troy never played and never had a PLAYER CONTRACT. That is the difference. And that is what you are over-looking. Only PLAYER contracts count against the cap.

Are you serious? Why wouldn't the Patriots sign "coaching" agreements with all of their practice squad players then? By your logic, if they never play then it wasn't a player contract. Its absurd.

 

[patchick]

1) You'd have to prove that it was a wink wink nod nod agreement, which is next to impossible.

This seems to me to be the crux of the matter. The INTENT we're talking about is to conspire with a player to circumvent roster/cap limits via unwritten promises. Obviously a no-no in principle. The difference of opinion is whether the "coaching contract" could serve as a legal loophole--and if not, whether the violations could be proven.

The legal standard, of course, isn't the same as in a court of law. It seems to me that some key pieces of evidence would include:
- was he paid like a coaching assistant or like a player?
- did he behave like a coaching assistant or like a player?
The second one in particular could be a smoking gun. "Coach Troy" better not keep a locker in the locker room or be seen with a helmet on at practice. You'd better not release any disgruntled players who might talk about Troy's activities with the team. And he surely better not suffer any significant injuries while on the "coaching" staff or the situation could turn mighty ugly. Etc., etc.

Like most conspiracies, this one strikes me as unnecessarily risky and convoluted. The potential gains vs. the nice legit PUP route aren't close to worth it.

 

[RayClay]

Huh? When did I ever say that the Pats should be fined?



You are clearly confused and clueless. To refresh your memory, here is the original post in this thread, the one I responded directly to.



The answer is clearly YES. It is blatantly illeagal to EVER have ANY kind of wink/nod/understanding with any player that is not disclosed in their contract. It is a direct violation of XXV(1) in the CBA. There is absolutely no ambiguity. The commissioner may penalize the Patriots by up to TWO first round picks and $5.25M.

THE END

Re write it this way.

Is it illegal to hire Troy Brown as a coach?

Is it illegal for a player to come out of retirement and play?

Is it illegal for a player to take a job as a coach while remaining available to sign with other teams as a player?

I do know the legality/illegality of winking has not been established clearly in the NFL.

 

[RayClay]

Any money that you pay to a player counts against the cap. This is true even if they never make it onto the active roster. The Patriots have paid several practice squad players as if they were on the roster as an incentive to keep them from signing with other teams. All of this money counts against the cap. If the Patriots pay Troy Brown $500K to be a coach and wink wink nod nod join the club if we need you, and he never joins the club, that is $500K paid to retain a player that never gets counted against the cap.

If the Patriots want Troy Brown as a coach/player, they can legally sign him to a deal. He will count $435K against the cap. They can put him on PUP or not.

If the Patriots enter into a wink wink nod nod arrangement with Troy Brown to do the exact same thing without signing him to a deal, it gives them two advantages:

1. They don't have a $435K charge against the cap.
2. They can add him to the roster outside of the weeks 7-10 window.

Are you saying the league can tell us how much to pay our coaches?

 

[RayClay]

Are you serious? Why wouldn't the Patriots sign "coaching" agreements with all of their practice squad players then? By your logic, if they never play then it wasn't a player contract. Its absurd.

Why would they? If they didn't have player contracts, other teams could still sign them.

Can coaches participate in full contact practices? Can they play in exhibition games?

 

[Pats726]

wasn't this discussed in depth last year OR the year before??? I think it was...

 

[Patjew]

wasn't this discussed in depth last year OR the year before??? I think it was...

Wasn't it about Dillon that time?

 

[RayClay]

Wasn't it about Dillon that time?

Hey, Patjew. Just remember, if you accept a coaching position you shouldn't come back and play later *wink*.

 

[PatsSteve1]

Are you serious? Why wouldn't the Patriots sign "coaching" agreements with all of their practice squad players then?

* Because that would be pretty obvious - Troy is about 36 years old. PS players are much younger and can't have ever been on the 53 man roster very long. I doubt they'd even agree to a coaching agreement. This arguement is getting ridiculous. If the Patriots made Troy an asst WR coach, it would be for the normal 1st year asst coach pay. Then if due to injury they asked him to come back as a player and he did, I don't think it would even be questioned. It's really not any different than if he took a job with UPS and then came back mid year.

 

[mgteich]

I'm fine with Troy Brown retiring and joining the coaching staff as an asistant position coach, with compensation to match his coaching his experience and coaching responsibilities. And yes, I would be fine with Troy deciding to un-retire if we had three injuries as either WR or CB. I am fine with doing the same with Vinny, bring him to roster only if there is QB injury.

But this is NOT happening.