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Troy Brown as Assistant Coach and Possible Mid-Year WR

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by NordicVoyager, May 26, 2007.

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  1. NordicVoyager

    NordicVoyager Practice Squad Player

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    Is there anything in the rules that would prevent the Patriots from hiring Troy Brown as an Assistant Coach of some sort with the wink/nod/understanding that he could possibly be added to the active player roster (later in the season in case of need)? In this way, he could be actively involved with the team until they needed to activate him of the shadow roster to fill in for possible WR/DB injuries.

    What other ways can players on the so-called "shadow" roster stay legally involved with the team without being involved on the player roster?

    For instance, QB Vine T. was at the passing camp this past week. How can he stay involved with the Pats until he is actually added to the active roster?

    What are the limits on such a player just showing up for practice/camp despite not being under contract? ANyone have any ideas?
     
  2. solman

    solman Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Showing up at camp, refusing to work for any other team, then joining when there is a need is perfectly legal.

    PAYING somebody to be an assistant coach, and then hiring them as a player is very dicey. If there isn't a rule specifically prohibiting this, there should be. You put a player on IR, you lose him for the season. The same should go for coaches. You pay a player to coach, he should be done for the season.

    Even if there isn't an explicit rule, any NFL team that goes this route better be prepared to show that there was no prior undisclosed understanding between the team and the player. I remember Peter King writing that Goodell could prove that he is in charge by fining the Patriots a draft pick. We should give him the chance.
     
  3. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    there used to be such a thing as the player/coach. The idea that you should penalize a player for COACHING has got to be one of the most idiotic things you've ever said, Solman. Truly and utterly.

    Hell, you don't even offer a rational explanation. As for your BS about Peter King saying that Gooddall should prove that he is in charge by fining the Patriots a draft pick, would you care to elaborate? What was the "indiscretion" that the Pats committed that would cost them a draft pick?

    The least you could do is actually talk facts and not idiotic innuendo.
     
  4. Patriotic

    Patriotic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, we'd lose one ping pong ball.
     
  5. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I've been advocating for years - specifically with Troy in mind - that the NFL allow a salary cap and roster exemption for a player/coach.

    It'd only be for veterans with 10+ years and would be a great way to begin to usher players into the coaching ranks, which the NFL is definately trying to encourage.

    It would effectively recognize that even if a guy like Troy may have lost a step, he still sets a great example for the rest of the team - and it would be a great way of extending the careers of special players like Troy.
     
  6. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    If there's no rule against it, we can do it.

    Do you think they can make up a rule after the fact?

    It would be nice if somebody waited until they actually knew something before talking about sanctions etc.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2007
  7. spacecrime

    spacecrime Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I thought solman made perfect sense.

    You have to get down to 53 players on cutdown day. If you want 54, tough. CUt players until you are down to 53.

    To say it is legal to stash players as coaches is silly. Why didn't we just hire Gay and Wilson as coaches, then bring them back when we needed them?

    I don't know where you get the idea that you p[enalize a guy for being a coach. Solman didn't say that. If Brown wants to be a coach he can. But he's a coach, not a player. Do you think we can activate Don Davis from the coaching staff next December if we are low on ILBs?

    There are, or at least were, player coaches, but they took a player roster spot. That isn't the intent here. The intent of making Troy a coach is to keep him, and pay him, without using a roster spot until we need him

    All we can do it cut him in Sept, and if no one signs him (he can legally refuse to sign with someone else), then we can sign him.

    But Solman wasn't being ridiculus at all.

    (I would assume the fining of a draft pick would be for bypassing teh salary cap. If Brown were paid as a coach for 10 games, he wouldn't count agaisnt the cap. Then if he were brought on board, only 6 games would be on the cap.)
     
  8. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Solman makes perfect sense? Really? How do you figure. He didn't offer up any facts or anything to support the idea that it would be a violation of some sort. Its not a violation of the salary cap to pay someone to be a coach. Someone who isn't healthy enough to PLAY. Also, Its a seperate type of contract to be a player and it WOULD count against the cap.



    Well, first off, Davis filed his retirement papers so he'd have to file new papers to be ruled eligible. But, yes, if he was ruled eligible, there'd be no reason the Pats couldn't sign him to a player contract and he'd count against the cap.

    Again, if he's not healthy, then so what? By all accounts, Troy is NOT healthy, currently. There may be something that says that Troy would have to file his retirement papers, but if that is the case, it would be similar to the Don Davis scenario you presented.

    Yes, you and he are being ridiculous because you are both making an assumption that the intent would be to bypass the salary cap. What neither of you realize is that there would be no intent to bypass the cap. And, should Troy sign a coaching contract to be with the team and then sign a player contract when he is healthy, the player contract would count against the salary cap.

    Its not a violation of the cap because during the 1st 10 games, he wasn't actually PLAYING. He was acting as a coach. So why would it count against the cap? How is it BYPASSING the Salary Cap?

    The least you could do is offer up a concrete idea of how having Troy Brown as a COACH and paying him as a COACH would be bypassing the salary cap if the Pats should add him to the 53 man roster by signing him to a player contract down the line?
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2007
  9. PatsSteve1

    PatsSteve1 In the Starting Line-Up

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    The least you could do is offer up a concrete idea of how having Troy Brown as a COACH and paying him as a COACH would be bypassing the salary cap if the Pats should add him to the 53 man roster by signing him to a player contract down the line?[/QUOTE]

    * I don't think it'd be a problem either.
     
  10. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    Yet making a blanket statement and offering no evidence is sensible.

    Interesting.:rolleyes:

    You'd have to cut him first.:rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2007
  11. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I really don't understand why some of you are obcessing about Troy like there is some pressing need to stash him somewhere. BB says there is a role for Troy on the 2007 team, and that barring unforseen complications with his rehab BB EXPECTS Troy to be on the roster.

    He hasn't been signed yet probably because they are waiting for him to pass a physical - he did have knee surgery over the off season. Troy has made pretty good money over the course of his career - he doesn't need to work, he still wants to. And as a player, not a coach. Assistant coaches in this league generally make about 20% of what he made last year alone, and they often work twice as many hours as players. Don Davis wants to do that, Troy has never hinted that coaching is something he plans on doing when his playing days are finally over. His kids are young, and they live in SC (where his wife works as a chemist). He already knows he has a job for life with the organization if he wants one - Bob Kraft has said that time and again. It will likely be in community relations and pay as much as any Asst. coach for a fraction of the hours.
     
  12. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Nope. He's a free agent and has no contract and as such to have him coach is within the rules. If he wants to sign midseason, so be it. It's no different than having a guy sitting at home who gets a call and signs midseason. Wasn't that Vinny T's position last year. To imply that there is something untoward or nefarious is wrong. Show me what rule would be broken if the Pats did that... I can't find it either......
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2007
  13. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    Perhaps he would need to retire. Either way, he could change his status if he wanted to. I'm pretty sure coaches have suited up before, but i can't prove it.
     
  14. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    http://www.nfl.com/teams/story/DEN/6174294
    The last two player-coaches were
    Jimmy Spencer Broncos 2003
    Dan Reeves 70,71 wth Cowboys
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2007
  15. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't think people on either side of this are being ridiculous.

    I can absolutely imagine a situation where a vet leaves the playing ranks to take a coaching position but doesn't file retirement papers, just in case. He takes his place in the coaching organization and earns a coaching assistant's salary. Then midseason comes, his old team suffers an injury and needs a pre-trained replacement. He's back on the field, all is above board, no complaints of foul play.

    And...

    I can absolutely imagine a situation where a team tries to reclassify a veteran player as a coach, paying him equivalent to a player salary and having him work out with the team rather than stay up late editing film. Then midseason comes, the team suffers an injury, he's re-signed as a player -- just the way the team and player agreed in the first place, which is why he didn't look for employment with other teams. This is a conspiracy to circumvent roster and salary-cap limits and the league office starts to snarl.

    Look, Troy is on crutches. What's wrong with good old PUP?
     
  16. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    Thanks for the research, but a player coach would still take up a roster spot.

    We're talking about someone who has already "graduated" becoming a coach then being re-signed as a player.
     
  17. solman

    solman Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Get a clue.

    I have no problem with a PLAYER being a coach. That's not what we're talking about.

    The question was whether we could HIDE Troy from the 53 man roster (and possibly the salary cap) by employing him as a coach.

    If such a procedure were plainly legal, then big market teams like the Patriots would hire 10 players as coaches, then activate them as needed. The 53 man roster would become meaningless for big market teams and suffocating for small market teams.

    The whole idea of a salary cap that promotes equality amongst the franchises and has been responsible for the modern day success of the NFL would be compromised.



    If you weren't smart enough to understand what I was saying you could have asked. Instead you prove your stupidity.

    If the Patriots go up to player X and say "I'll give you a million dollars this year to coach for us and not play, and if we need you during the season, you can become a player for us at that time" without informing the league about this arrangement, and they are caught, you can be absolutely certain that they would be penalized draft picks.
     
  18. shakadave

    shakadave In the Starting Line-Up

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    Great post. I assume that the reason it's all legal is that, while the player is employed as a coach, any other team can offer him bigger money to come play for them, provided both sides are willing.
     
  19. spacecrime

    spacecrime Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Yes, the fact that both sides can present a strong case shows that it is a topic worthy of discussion, and that both sides have valid points.

    One side calling the other ridiculous and stupid is simply ... ridiculous and stupid.
     
  20. spacecrime

    spacecrime Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Well, it has not been confirmed yet that it is legal.

    One of the biggest factors indicating that it is not is that not one of the 32 teams has done this. Ever. This in spite of the fact that it would be a terrific place to put a player rather than IR. On IR he can never come back. Make him a coach and you can bring him back for the playoffs. If this is legal, why has no one done this?

    If someone can point to a guy who retired, became a coach, then became a player, all for the same team in the same year, then it is obviously legal.

    But as long as no one has ever done it, it is safe (to me) to assume that it is not legal.
     
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