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Things I learned last Sunday......


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Brownfan80 said:
I don't see how anyone can attribute the problems in the secondary only to that unit. The pass rush (lack of) has played an absolutely huge part of how they look out there.

I said mainly, not 'only'. If you simply review the big plays we have given up this year, they mostly revolved around missed tackles in the secondary. Or cornerbacks in position to make plays but didn't.

We have had an anemic 3 man pass rush for several years, but when our secondary is hot, or when we blitz extensively, we have been okay.

When was the last time that we had a really good pass rush from just the front three? Add up Warren, Seymour, and Wilfork's sacks, add in Ted Washington's and Traylor's and Jarvis Green's. I think Bobby Hamilton had as good a year as we have seen in D-Line pass rushing. It has always been the LBs that get our sacks.

The fact is that this pass rush we have is nothing new. But we don't have a fully healthy Rodney, a Ty Law, or a healthy and effective Wilson, or even a completely healthy Hobbs or Hawkins or Gay.

In the past, we would hit QBs from the LB position because our secondary was so good that we made QB's hesitate so they wouldn't throw a pick. Coverage sacks. Remember those? Those days are over. Harrington can complete passes on us. Even our 'patchwork' secondary of 2004 kept the play in front of them and gang tackled people, as well as creating turn-overs. Pretty much the same D-Line we have now, except Washington instead of Wilfork. Neither of whom rack up many sacks.

Nothing has changed in our pass rushing abilities, same D-Line as before and only aging Wille out of the picture. We never have generated a ton of heat from our front 3.

The secondary is not in shambles or anything, but I will not try to pin their missed opportunites on the pass rush, which is pretty much the same as it ever was.
 
I do think that it is safe to say that Belichick will be asking for more pass rush out of his D-line and also less missed tackles out of the secondary when they practice over the bi-week! ;)
 
5 Rings for Brady!! said:
I said mainly, not 'only'. If you simply review the big plays we have given up this year, they mostly revolved around missed tackles in the secondary. Or cornerbacks in position to make plays but didn't.

We have had an anemic 3 man pass rush for several years, but when our secondary is hot, or when we blitz extensively, we have been okay.

When was the last time that we had a really good pass rush from just the front three? Add up Warren, Seymour, and Wilfork's sacks, add in Ted Washington's and Traylor's and Jarvis Green's. I think Bobby Hamilton had as good a year as we have seen in D-Line pass rushing. It has always been the LBs that get our sacks.

The fact is that this pass rush we have is nothing new. But we don't have a fully healthy Rodney, a Ty Law, or a healthy and effective Wilson, or even a completely healthy Hobbs or Hawkins or Gay.

In the past, we would hit QBs from the LB position because our secondary was so good that we made QB's hesitate so they wouldn't throw a pick. Coverage sacks. Remember those? Those days are over. Harrington can complete passes on us. Even our 'patchwork' secondary of 2004 kept the play in front of them and gang tackled people, as well as creating turn-overs. Pretty much the same D-Line we have now, except Washington instead of Wilfork. Neither of whom rack up many sacks.

Nothing has changed in our pass rushing abilities, same D-Line as before and only aging Wille out of the picture. We never have generated a ton of heat from our front 3.

The secondary is not in shambles or anything, but I will not try to pin their missed opportunites on the pass rush, which is pretty much the same as it ever was.

I started to break down the big plays, but that's honestly not what I'm even talking about. Yes the secondary has had breakdowns that have resulted in big plays. But the plays I'm talking about are your average 'move the chain' plays (not to say that pressure wouldn't have helped on those big plays, but still, let me make my point).

Take, for instance, Miami's TD drive that resulted in Ronnie Brown's TD run. The play that set up the TD was the great catch over the middle by Welker. On that play is a good example of the lack of pressure making the secondary look bad.

Hobbs had his man perfectly. He was in the WRs hip pocket. The safety help was late getting there, granted, but the QB had time to take a nap, eat a sandwich, and then pass and yet still he had absolutely no pressure in his face.

This lack of pressure resulted in a perfect pass and a great catch that even good CB coverage couldn't stop.

There have been points in this season (and much of last season) that look like that. Think of the San Diego game last season if you need several instances in the same game. Think of how well the Bills moved the ball in the first half if you need some more recent evidence. Or think of the Denver game. Or the second half of the Jets game. Or points in the Dolphins game.

When the QB can just stand there and not worry at all about getting hit, he's going to be very accurate. Our defense has lulls (some longer than others) where we get absolutely ZERO pressure, and that is usually when our secondary starts to look bad.

Again, I'm not exonerating the secondary. They've blown some plays too and had some instances where the coverage wasn't what it should be. But for much of the time when the secondary has looked really bad, getting beat over and over to sustain drives, it's been because QBs are just sitting back there waiting for an opening, not even worried about the rush.

It's not been as bad as early 2005, but it's very inconsistent. I can't wait until that TEAM defense shows up a little more evenly through a 60 minute game.
 
I think that the pass rush could be a lot better, but unfortunately, I just don't see it being any different than in the past. I've always wanted better pass rush than the Pats generate with the guys they have up front. I did in 2003. 2002. 2004. 2005. 2001. 1996. It's just not been Belichick's way of doing things. The 3 man front is a trade off towards less D-Line pass rush, but more coverage in the back field.

I just don't think that has changed in a long time, and I don't see it changing this year. I think the blitz is all we've got as far as getting pressure, and the occasional Seymour jailbreak thru double teams.

I acknowledge the problem exists, but knowing Belichick, we are stuck with the guys we have when it comes to pass rush and the occasional blitz.

I still want the secondary to tighten up, and that seems to be the more likely area of improvement as the year goes along. By schemes, or Rodney getting healthy, Hobbs's hand healing, ect. Putting extra guys back there. Some things can be improved in the secondary, starting with tackling.

Up Front, short of running a 4 man line full time, we can only hope the guys get the job done. I've always wanted more pass rush, but it isn't the two gap style that Belichick uses. A lot of our sacks in the past were coverage sacks.

The napolian rule changes have hurt us in that area as well.
 
patsox23 said:
The interference was, in my view, BLATANT, and whether or not Will Allen turned around is, in this case, irrelevant. He hit Gabriel before the ball arrived - PI. Period. I still don't get why ANYONE is arguing this.

Allen didn't hit Gabriel, Gabriel ran into Allen becuse the Ball was thrown behind both players Allen was between Gabriel and the ball and since Allen looked back for the ball, it wasn't face gaurding. The last time I checked it wasn't illeagle to be between the ball and the WR. If the ball comes up short because the WR ran to deep or the QB just didn't put enouh on it, that isn't the fault of the defender.

Allen did look back at the ball and his hands were out to the side and away from Gabriel. So it's like the foul called in a basketball game, where the defender doesn't have to touch the forward, the forward can jump into the defender and draw the foul, even though the defender did nothing wrong. It's stupid. Allen was following Gabreil and positioned himself between Gabriel and the ball exactly where he should have been. It's a dumb rule and it needs to be adjusted.
 
Terrific points, PFK; I'll comment on some later, but right now, I need to know:

Who was Big Brother Bob Emery?

I'm old (47 on Nov.17th), and from Boston, but the name doesn't ring a bell.

Was he like Major Mudd or Rex Trailer?
 
5 Rings for Brady!! said:
RayClay: Nice post on Dillon!

Thanks. Just hoping some of our grade school posters who start 18 threads for every one they post in might bump into it and learn something..

I seriously believe there are posters who think Dillon's some scrub we picked up on waivers.:rolleyes:
 
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that's alot of points you make. I think the Pats are doing what they need to do in order to win games. This was typical of their superbowl years.

As for Maroney, other may comment on this, it seem he runs best with a fullback in where he can follow into the hole. At this point as a rookie he seems to struggle in the one-back set.

Miami always plays Brady tough and he struggles throwing against them. Look at previous years numbers.
 
captain stone said:
Terrific points, PFK; I'll comment on some later, but right now, I need to know:

Who was Big Brother Bob Emery?

I'm old (47 on Nov.17th), and from Boston, but the name doesn't ring a bell.

Was he like Major Mudd or Rex Trailer?


Two more blasts from my TV-viewing past: Willie Whistle and Bunker Hill.
 
5 Rings for Brady!! said:
I said mainly, not 'only'. If you simply review the big plays we have given up this year, they mostly revolved around missed tackles in the secondary. Or cornerbacks in position to make plays but didn't.

We have had an anemic 3 man pass rush for several years, but when our secondary is hot, or when we blitz extensively, we have been okay.

When was the last time that we had a really good pass rush from just the front three? Add up Warren, Seymour, and Wilfork's sacks, add in Ted Washington's and Traylor's and Jarvis Green's. I think Bobby Hamilton had as good a year as we have seen in D-Line pass rushing. It has always been the LBs that get our sacks.

The fact is that this pass rush we have is nothing new. But we don't have a fully healthy Rodney, a Ty Law, or a healthy and effective Wilson, or even a completely healthy Hobbs or Hawkins or Gay.

In the past, we would hit QBs from the LB position because our secondary was so good that we made QB's hesitate so they wouldn't throw a pick. Coverage sacks. Remember those? Those days are over. Harrington can complete passes on us. Even our 'patchwork' secondary of 2004 kept the play in front of them and gang tackled people, as well as creating turn-overs. Pretty much the same D-Line we have now, except Washington instead of Wilfork. Neither of whom rack up many sacks.

Nothing has changed in our pass rushing abilities, same D-Line as before and only aging Wille out of the picture. We never have generated a ton of heat from our front 3.

The secondary is not in shambles or anything, but I will not try to pin their missed opportunites on the pass rush, which is pretty much the same as it ever was.

Our front three are tying up five linemen. They'll get some sacks but we need to get our blitz package working. It will come. And we do miss McGinest in this regard, not that we should have kept him, but he hasn't been replaced.
 
captain stone said:
Two more blasts from my TV-viewing past: Willie Whistle and Bunker Hill.

You need to be just slightly older, I remember him toasting Eisenhower with Cocoa Marsh.

"Well, the grass is always greener in the other fellow's yard;
The little row, you have to hoe...oh boy that's hard!
But if we all could wear green glasses now, it wouldn't be so hard,
To see how green that grass is in your own backyard!"

Friendly uncle type, not funny, little kids.
 
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RayClay said:
You need to be just slightly older, I remember him toasting Eisenhower with Cocoa Marsh.

"Well, the grass is always greener in the other fellow's yard;
The little row, you have to hoe...oh boy that's hard!
But if we all could wear green glasses now, it wouldn't be so hard,
To see how green that grass is in your own backyard!"

Friendly uncle type, not funny, little kids.


What channel was he on? Was Cocoa Marsh like Bosco?

Inquiring minds want to know.
 
Just a few additional replies and comments:

1. I don't disagree that there was a PI on the Gabriel pass in the end zone, my complaint was that while the pass was marginally on target (a bit underthrown, he wanted to get it over the defender's head), and the defender had done a decent job in getting in position to defend the pass. (if he had been in great position, and had his head completely turned, he it would have been an easy pick). Yes it was interference, but again the punishment DIDN'T fit the crime.

2. Nice post on Dillon, his comment about being compared to Payton and Jim Brown gives us a better insight to the kind of character Dillon has shown HERE, as opposed to the rep he came in with. Clearly the guy "gets it", and is really enjoying his time here. I hope he can stay healty this year.

3. Somthing I wish I had written in the original post: Did anyone else notice that the biggest thing missing in comparing the Pats running game vs the Bengals and the Dolphins was....Daniel Graham.

Now I'm not saying that if he'd been there the Pats would have run for 250 instead of the 80 they got, but rather it would have been better. IMHO he's that good a blocker.
 
patfanken said:
3. Somthing I wish I had written in the original post: Did anyone else notice that the biggest thing missing in comparing the Pats running game vs the Bengals and the Dolphins was....Daniel Graham.

Now I'm not saying that if he'd been there the Pats would have run for 250 instead of the 80 they got, but rather it would have been better. IMHO he's that good a blocker.


Yes several on the board noticed and commented the same thing. You could tell he was missing, even if his presense wouldn't have 'saved' the rushing day.
 
patfanken said:
Just a few additional replies and comments:


3. Somthing I wish I had written in the original post: Did anyone else notice that the biggest thing missing in comparing the Pats running game vs the Bengals and the Dolphins was....Daniel Graham.

Now I'm not saying that if he'd been there the Pats would have run for 250 instead of the 80 they got, but rather it would have been better. IMHO he's that good a blocker.


Hear, hear. I'll be very bummed, as will Dillon & Maroney, if Grahambo isn't re-signed. I watched the game at The Bear's Den, so I don't have the tape to confirm, but it seemed as if Evans wasn't used as a lead blocker as often as he was last week. Considering Graham's absense, this was, if true, an unsound stategy by our inexperienced and underqualified OC.
 
RayClay said:
Our front three are tying up five linemen. They'll get some sacks but we need to get our blitz package working. It will come. And we do miss McGinest in this regard, not that we should have kept him, but he hasn't been replaced.

The other way of looking at it would be to say that five linemen are tying up our front three...... ;)

We could use more pass rush and tighter secondary play. Pass rush will require blitzing, which in turn requires excellent man coverage from the whole secondary.

I don't see us replacing the 'Willie' effect without a young stud with some real talent and fresh legs. That would be next year's draft, unless Tully or Woods surprises us. That's why I think the secondary is our best hope for making big strides during the season. But the injury bug has struck, so coaching and schemes are going to have to make up the difference. Even the return of Rodney will have a very positive effect as he goes from 80% healthy to 95% healthy.

I believe we will regret letting the Jets take Hank Poteat.
 
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patfanken said:
Just a few additional replies and comments:

1. Yes it was interference, but again the punishment DIDN'T fit the crime.

Yes it did. That type of play has always garnered an interference call.
 
captain stone said:
Two more blasts from my TV-viewing past: Willie Whistle and Bunker Hill.

Add to the list Uncle Gus.

I want Graham re-signed, because he gives us 9 games a year. Never more. But they're good games.
 
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