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The Sports media are missing the reasons and value-add to the Garappolo Trade


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The good thing about this debate is it's like climate change, we're going to find out sooner rather then later.
 
I like most of what you wrote. It is well thought out and put together, so please don't take this the wrong way when I only respond to the one thing I disagree with. Having said that....

No team is going to give the Patriots the bounty of picks they want for a 1-year trial at Garoppolo's current deal. Then they will have the problem in 1 year where they have to franchise him right away (or lose him to UFA).

Any team interested in trading for Garoppolo would have to have worked out a deal with him in advance. They would need some protection of their own.

I was thinking about this a bit and I'm not so sure because there's risk in both.

On the one hand, you risk having to franchise him for a year, or else you might lose him.

On the other hand, you could sign him to a really large extension without even seeing him (Brock Osweiler).

So let's say you are planning on giving him a similar deal to Brock (4 years, $72M, $37M guaranteed). If you give it to him right after trading for him, you're potentially stuck with a bunch of dead money if it doesn't work out. Not only did you lose your draft pick, you're killing your cap situation and might have to do a similar deal that the Texans did.

Alternatively, let's say you wait a year. If he sucks, at least you're free moving forward. If he's good, you could franchise him ($21M this year, should go up a bit next year). You probably need to give him a bigger deal than Brock's at that point. It might be 4 years, $85M, with $45M guaranteed or something.

But you still have that cheap year to balance it out to a 5-year, $86M deal with $45M guaranteed. Your average per year would still balance out similarly, your guaranteed money might be more, but you feel a lot better about it.

In my mind, the first scenario carries significantly more risk. In the second, your costs go up but balancing with that first cheap year makes it not much more really.
 
Brissett and JG could ironically be Brady's off spring age wise, and at their age, they got hurt.

Thoughts? Angry comments?
DW Toys
I found the reality of that sentence hilarious.
 
In the end there can be only one reason to keep JG on the roster for this season. Just ONE! And that is the belief within the FO that Tom Brady will NOT play for the Patriots past the 2017 season. It's that simple, folks.

The "franchise theory" doesn't hold water by any stretch of the imagination. Besides the kid wants to PLAY, not to sit another 2 years. No, JG is playing his last season for the Pats UNLESS Brady is a goner after this season. And do you really believe that Brady won't be the best QB the Pats could put on the field for the 2018 season.

Now I know the fact that Brady might be "willing" to play 5 or 6 more years, is VERY speculative. But I DO know that by any reasonable expectation based on his last 3 seasons of play' Tom Brady being able to play at at top 10 level for the next 2 season is about a sure a bet as you can make today.

If there are those who would keep JG on the roster this season purely as insurance for a team looking to win one more superbowl, then I would opine that you are wasting a valuable asset, 3 years in the making, for nothing. IF Brissett isn't your cup of tea, then I would suggest Ryan Fitzpatrick as a quality back up, who might thrive in that role..

As for Cleveland giving us a reasonable offer, I don't see how they cannot give one worthwhile. They simply have TOO many picks over the next 2 seasons to build long term success and they know it. Something like the 12th, 52nd and a conditiional pick in 2018 that would likely end up a 2nd but possibly a first should do the trick. To the Browns Garapolo would be cheap at the price.

Ergo, my strong belief is that IF JG is on the roster come September than we will be watching Tom Brady's last season as te Pats QB. There is simply no other possible explanation.

There is another possible explanation, which meshes with what Schefter reported. The Patriots just don't know right now and having JG on the roster in case Brady declines is valuable to them, more valuable than several draft picks due to the position and its importance.

Key words were "unchartered territory" when Schefter described the Patriots reasoning. No one has played as well as Brady at 39. Will he show signs of decline in 2017? Will it matter, and will they still replace him? Maybe they need to take another year to test JG as well.

In other words, it's complicated. Keeping JG does not mean that TB12 is gone next season. It means that is an option. If Brady has a year like 2016 and Garoppollo shows he is injury prone or has other leadership issues, hard to imagine they replace Brady. If JG appears to be a worthy successor and the Patriots aren't buying TB's long-term plans as realistic, they can go the other way.

I think they see 2017 as a key evaluation season, and nothing has been set in stone. That's essentially what Schefter reported, and I trust his sources more than anyone else.

No one is taking Schefter's report at face value. He did say they would be willing to trade JG for a huge return, which they didn't expect to get. That lines up exactly with what has played out. I think they are asking Cleveland for #1 overall plus another conditional high round pick.
 
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Why would the Browns give away a first round pick and the Oz (minus 14 million) when they can just as well keep him for an extra 2 mill. Oz does not need too much of a rehabilitation to become a decent enough QB to get the team a 6-10 record next year.
 
I was thinking about this a bit and I'm not so sure because there's risk in both.

On the one hand, you risk having to franchise him for a year, or else you might lose him.

On the other hand, you could sign him to a really large extension without even seeing him (Brock Osweiler).

So let's say you are planning on giving him a similar deal to Brock (4 years, $72M, $37M guaranteed). If you give it to him right after trading for him, you're potentially stuck with a bunch of dead money if it doesn't work out. Not only did you lose your draft pick, you're killing your cap situation and might have to do a similar deal that the Texans did.

Alternatively, let's say you wait a year. If he sucks, at least you're free moving forward. If he's good, you could franchise him ($21M this year, should go up a bit next year). You probably need to give him a bigger deal than Brock's at that point. It might be 4 years, $85M, with $45M guaranteed or something.

But you still have that cheap year to balance it out to a 5-year, $86M deal with $45M guaranteed. Your average per year would still balance out similarly, your guaranteed money might be more, but you feel a lot better about it.

In my mind, the first scenario carries significantly more risk. In the second, your costs go up but balancing with that first cheap year makes it not much more really.
I just don't think the logic makes much sense. Is he a franchise QB of the future or not? If you believe he is, then you condition the trade on signing him to a long term deal. If you don't believe he is a franchise QB, then why would you trade all those picks? You'll never have more leverage because he is probably eager to play.

You don't trade #12 and #33 for a guy unless you think he is a franchise QB. So if he plays like a franchise QB in 2017, 4 years and $85 million will not do it in 2018 (not to mention, you can't force him to sign a deal if he just doesn't like it there).

The franchise tag might not necessarily do it either. Even if he accepts the tag then ok, you've bought a 2nd year. Then what? Also, remember... in this hypothetical, you've given up 2 first rounders for the guy in 2017 (ok ok #33 isn't a first rounder but it's close enough)... so if he plays like a franchise QB, some other team might give up 2 first rounders for him in 2018. Sure you get some picks back but you've wasted a whole lot of time and you're right back where you started.
 
Some interesting points made I this thread but Osweiler is not one of them. He is not an accurate passer and incapable of leading a team. Bill O'Brien is an excellent offensive coach and Osweiler was Houstons problem and main culprit of their inability to contend. Josh would not be able to turn him around. He was adequate with Denver but they had more than just a dominating defense, they had a running game and the friendly altitude advantage of Denver. Even still, a virtually washed up Peyton took over for him. Forget about him!

Fitzpatrick would be an excellent backup and Josh could work with him if need be.

I believe Bilichick has spoken in the past how aging players drop off dramatically and may be concerned about Brady in the next few years. I know it appears he has a few good years left but IMO, I am skeptical of his desire of quality play much further. If that were the case, I would trade Garropolo for a Cleveland 2nd this year and their first and a 2nd next year and look for our next QB if Brissette doesn't show signs this year that he could be the answer.

We should ride Brady as long as we can and he desires to play (he has earned this right). We appear to be pretty well set with talent this year and loading up for next years draft with the future in mind may be the plan. Only BB and few others really know the direction. Garropolo does give us leverage though because he has shown the signs of being a franchise QB. I am looking forward to see how this plays out. But, BB knows best and I trust his judgement. We'll see!
 
At the end of the day if a trade was going to be done before the 2017 draft I think it would be done now. There's nothing to gain from waiting. The picture today is almost exactly what it will be on draft day.

The fact that BB hasn't moved by now tells me that even if he is going to trade Garoppolo, it will not be for 2017 draft assets at all. That trade would have been done by now if it was happening.

The only things left worth waiting for, besides Cleveland taking complete and utter leave of their senses that is, are things that we won't know until players report to training camp. We could still deal Jimmy G this offseason, but I suspect that if 2017 draft assets were what BB wanted in this trade he'd already be a Cleveland Brown. The offers on the table are more than generous enough to be tempting.

That tells me that BB wants more certainly, or in other words more information about all of Brissett, Garoppolo and Brady, before he pulls the trigger on any trade, and there simply isn't going to be any more certainty between now and the draft. I could be mistaken but I believe the next real data point for all 3 quarterbacks comes at training camp and not before. And I think BB will also have drafted another QB and be able to know who he has in the fold and what he expects from that player.

Which in turn tells me that if the Browns want Garoppolo they need to position themselves to deal 2018 picks for him. The timing isn't right for a trade based on the 2017 picks the Browns have hoarded
 
I just don't think the logic makes much sense. Is he a franchise QB of the future or not? If you believe he is, then you condition the trade on signing him to a long term deal. If you don't believe he is a franchise QB, then why would you trade all those picks? You'll never have more leverage because he is probably eager to play.

You don't trade #12 and #33 for a guy unless you think he is a franchise QB. So if he plays like a franchise QB in 2017, 4 years and $85 million will not do it in 2018 (not to mention, you can't force him to sign a deal if he just doesn't like it there).

The franchise tag might not necessarily do it either. Even if he accepts the tag then ok, you've bought a 2nd year. Then what? Also, remember... in this hypothetical, you've given up 2 first rounders for the guy in 2017 (ok ok #33 isn't a first rounder but it's close enough)... so if he plays like a franchise QB, some other team might give up 2 first rounders for him in 2018. Sure you get some picks back but you've wasted a whole lot of time and you're right back where you started.

You're basing this on having to make a decision on his long-term future at the time of the trade. Nobody says you have to do this. It is traditionally done, but that doesn't mean you must do it, and it means you carry the majority of the risk upfront.

If you trade #12 and #33 and Jimmy G sucks, then you've "lost" either way. Adding a long-term deal with lots of money guaranteed on day 1 just makes it a bigger loss. So there's no point bringing up the draft compensation, it has no connection to the type of deal you need to sign him to.

You're basically saying you want to sign him to a big deal right away to ensure you have him beyond one year, basically giving up your cheap first year or blending it into the contract a bit.

All I'm saying is you can also give him a full year to "prove it," still have the franchise tag to keep him, and you can negotiate a slightly bigger contract once you're convinced, but the average per year would still be similar. You're taking some of the risk out by not signing him to a huge deal right away.

Think of it like a wedding prenup. For some, it's a sign that there are doubts. For others, it's a necessary component before agreeing to get married. One isn't better than the other, just a matter of what makes sense for each couple.

So think about it this way. Let's say you give him your extension. What are your numbers? Does 4 years, $80M, $40M guaranteed sound reasonable? That's based on the Brock deal, and seems a bit high considering you're adding in his 1 cheap year.

In the other way, you could basically franchise him twice in a row and have a cheap year and still end up only paying him slightly more than half that amount. In the pay-as-you go option over 3 years, that looks roughly like $1M, $22M, $26M. Even if you were batshit crazy and decided to franchise him a 3rd time in a row for the massive 44% increase, that would put a ridiculous $37M on the deal in year 4 but that still only puts you at $87M over 4 years, not that far off the 4 years, $80M extension you'd sign on day 1.

For $7M, you could buy 3 easy "outs." Houston would have loved to have that option with the Brock deal.

And none of that precludes you from doing a long-term deal, but worst case scenario, it isn't going to be significantly worse than the extension you sign on day 1 with a lot of guaranteed money. You're basically protecting yourself for each year.

Obviously real life is much messier than theoretical posts, and no doubt Jimmy G would be pissed off if he got franchised 3 years in a row. It would never reach that point, I know that. But if he's good in year 1, you can still sign him to a big deal.

Let's say you make him play out his first year because you're not sure. Once you're happy, you could give him a 3 year, $79M deal with $50M in guarantees if you want and it's basically the same thing as the 4-year, $80M option in terms of average per year and you feel a lot better about the guarantees which are more than 2 consecutive franchise tags for Jimmy G, so he gets security there. No QB is averaging more than $25M a year right now. I'm not saying that's the exact deal, but in principle, you carry significantly less risk.

You also mention that another team might make him a deal under the franchise tag. But you have two options there:

1. you tag him with the exclusive franchise tag. It costs a bit more, but he can't negotiate with other teams, or
2. you tag him with the non-exclusive franchise tag, and have the option to match the offer sheet he signs too.

Now if you're a terrible team like Cleveland, you might want to sign him right away to keep him there as long as possible. That would be the one argument that makes sense to me. But I wouldn't give him a huge extension on day 1 just as a vote of confidence because that's how things are done. There's very little risk in waiting at least 1 year to do the deal.
 
At the end of the day if a trade was going to be done before the 2017 draft I think it would be done now. There's nothing to gain from waiting. The picture today is almost exactly what it will be on draft day.

The fact that BB hasn't moved by now tells me that even if he is going to trade Garoppolo, it will not be for 2017 draft assets at all. That trade would have been done by now if it was happening.

The only things left worth waiting for, besides Cleveland taking complete and utter leave of their senses that is, are things that we won't know until players report to training camp. We could still deal Jimmy G this offseason, but I suspect that if 2017 draft assets were what BB wanted in this trade he'd already be a Cleveland Brown. The offers on the table are more than generous enough to be tempting.

That tells me that BB wants more certainly, or in other words more information about all of Brissett, Garoppolo and Brady, before he pulls the trigger on any trade, and there simply isn't going to be any more certainty between now and the draft. I could be mistaken but I believe the next real data point for all 3 quarterbacks comes at training camp and not before. And I think BB will also have drafted another QB and be able to know who he has in the fold and what he expects from that player.

Which in turn tells me that if the Browns want Garoppolo they need to position themselves to deal 2018 picks for him. The timing isn't right for a trade based on the 2017 picks the Browns have hoarded
You are simply guessing. Either they will get enough to trade him or they won't. There is no reason to trade between now and draft day. When Bill gets the final offer he will make a decision.
 
You are simply guessing. Either they will get enough to trade him or they won't. There is no reason to trade between now and draft day. When Bill gets the final offer he will make a decision.
I suspect
I could be mistaken but I believe
And I think

Well duh.

Besides, we're ALL guessing at this point. Not sure what the point of singling me out as particularly "guessy" was.
 
I have a feeling Cleveland doesn't want to part with their #1 pick and that may be what BB is looking for.........along with #33........let the Browns keep #12.......
 
Worry about that starting in one year.



We are in this position BECAUSE BB thinks ahead and isn't totally focused on the short term when it comes to the roster.
 
We are in this position BECAUSE BB thinks ahead and isn't totally focused on the short term when it comes to the roster.

IOW, IBWT
 
Well depending on what happens with Butler (ie he signs his tender and a deal is worked with NO). I can see a scenario where BB takes a couple of second rnd picks from Cle this year and NEXT years #1 pick. Next year is alleged to be a QB rich class, if you don't think JB is the Brady successor then draft a QB with Cleveland's #1 NEXT year.

It is likely that even if JG is successful w the Browns their #1 next year with be ~#12, with a chance to get a QB to groom. oh yeah another conditional #3 pick going to #2 depending on who JG plays.

That may be the reason to wait till closer to the draft.
 
This is the 2nd long post by DW that to me seems reasonable and well thought out. I am worried that I may be going senile.
The Ost suggestion is creative thinking outside the box but I don't think #1 is ever gonna happen, so I'm ignoring that part.
#s 12 & 33 should happen but 2 parties need agree. I'm in the camp that JAG has little trade value to the Pats in 2018.

Agree, I'm afraid he's off his medication.
 
I bet Bill also puts a great value on Jimmy making Tom push himself even more because he feels Jimmys breath on his neck.
Should Jimmy be a stronger player then Bill can be in a position to make the most difficult decision a football franchise has ever had to make.
I dont envy him in that regard but dont think for a second Bill wont do what he feels is the best decision for the success of the Patriots no matter how many people call for his head.
Should that day ever come Bill better be 100 percent sure hes making the right decision.
 
There is another possible explanation, which meshes with what Schefter reported. The Patriots just don't know right now and having JG on the roster in case Brady declines is valuable to them, more valuable than several draft picks due to the position and its importance.

Key words were "unchartered territory" when Schefter described the Patriots reasoning. No one has played as well as Brady at 39. Will he show signs of decline in 2017? Will it matter, and will they still replace him? Maybe they need to take another year to test JG as well.

In other words, it's complicated. Keeping JG does not mean that TB12 is gone next season. It means that is an option. If Brady has a year like 2016 and Garoppollo shows he is injury prone or has other leadership issues, hard to imagine they replace Brady. If JG appears to be a worthy successor and the Patriots aren't buying TB's long-term plans as realistic, they can go the other way.

I think they see 2017 as a key evaluation season, and nothing has been set in stone. That's essentially what Schefter reported, and I trust his sources more than anyone else.

No one is taking Schefter's report at face value. He did say they would be willing to trade JG for a huge return, which they didn't expect to get. That lines up exactly with what has played out. I think they are asking Cleveland for #1 overall plus another conditional high round pick.

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That
 
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