The Next Mike Vrabel?

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm not saying we won't look for another OLB, but I don't think it would not be best served to draft another kid who we have to teach to play the LB position.

If we do decide to go the young LB route, I would much rather see us take a late-round flier on guys who would go a little bit later in Brian Toal, DeAndre Levy, Gerald McRath or Slade Norris.

Personally, unless we can land one of top tier LB prospects in the draft, I am all for going after somebody like Jon Vilma or Karlos Dansby. I really like what Guyton can bring to the table, but I'm not sold on him as a 3 down ILB.

I'm going to join our clinician in throwing the challenge flag on your late round LB choices:

Toal's injury history aside, he's on the small side for NE. If you want a BC LB late, draft Francois.

Levy is another smaller LB, too small, and if you wanted a SS/LB hybrid, draft his mate Casillas who can run with TEs and RBs in coverage.

McRath is another too small LB for NE's 3-4.

Norris is a good UDFA choice having played both LB and DE.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I have to say Barwin looked pretty big (arms)and athleatic running routes. I can see that athleatic ability being transferred over to defense but I hope to see that this week on the field. I was not too impressed either with some of those ends in the 1 on 1's. English and Davis are strictly 4-3 ends but I did not see much from them but Mitch King has a motor. I have no information about this kid but they say he is undersized (without many measurable's)but has great hands and good body lean. Evander Hood was very explosive with good hands but I think he is a three technique in the NFL not a 3-4 end.

Mitch King is the kind of kid Indy gets all moist over, I like him, but I don't see the fit in NE.

 

[mayoclinic]

Clint Sintim is the obvious 3-4 LB candidate with experience, size and versatility. I personally like Barwin, but I could understand picking Sintim over Barwin based on more experience at the LB position. I certainly wouldn't be upset with either. It sounds like Sintim will probably go higher than Barwin - at least at this early stage of the draft process - based on his experience, so he may be a less likely option for us unless we spend the #23 pick on him.

I would emphasize that learning to play LB in Belichick's system is a MAJOR adjustment for anyone. The fact that Mayo (and to a lesser degree, Guyton) picked it up so easily is an anomaly. We can't count on it. Even veterans have difficulty learning his system. Adalius Thomas is probably the most versatile LB in the NFL, and he was very outspoken about how much steeper the learning curve was in his first year with the Pats than he had anticipated. Even if we get a proven player like Dansby, there may still be a significant learning curve.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Clint Sintim is the obvious 3-4 LB candidate with experience, size and versatility. I personally like Barwin, but I could understand picking Sintim over Barwin based on more experience at the LB position. I certainly wouldn't be upset with either. It sounds like Sintim will probably go higher than Barwin - at least at this early stage of the draft process - based on his experience, so he may be a less likely option for us unless we spend the #23 pick on him.

I would emphasize that learning to play LB in Belichick's system is a MAJOR adjustment for anyone. The fact that Mayo (and to a lesser degree, Guyton) picked it up so easily is an anomaly. We can't count on it. Even veterans have difficulty learning his system. Adalius Thomas is probably the most versatile LB in the NFL, and he was very outspoken about how much steeper the learning curve was in his first year with the Pats than he had anticipated. Even if we get a proven player like Dansby, there may still be a significant learning curve.

I ask this because I don't know the answer--who do you think would be able to contribute more (to the team as a whole, not necessarily at LB) as a rookie, Sintim or Barwin?

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

Mitch King is the kind of kid Indy gets all moist over, I like him, but I don't see the fit in NE.

He reminds me of a Kelcko but not a fit in our system but he did catch my eye.

 

[MetalBleachers]

I ask this because I don't know the answer--who do you think would be able to contribute more (to the team as a whole, not necessarily at LB) as a rookie, Sintim or Barwin?

Sintim. Look what a couple of years in Al Groh's D did for Vince Redd in terms of preparedness. Sintim would have a better idea of the defense and did more than put a hand on the ground and rush the passer.

Barwin seems the better overall athlete, but Sintim would contribute faster.

 

[MetalBleachers]

I'm going to join our clinician in throwing the challenge flag on your late round LB choices:

Toal's injury history aside, he's on the small side for NE. If you want a BC LB late, draft Francois.

Levy is another smaller LB, too small, and if you wanted a SS/LB hybrid, draft his mate Casillas who can run with TEs and RBs in coverage.

McRath is another too small LB for NE's 3-4.

Norris is a good UDFA choice having played both LB and DE.

I only read this guy's name, never say him play, but his size and numbers make him an intriguing UDFA (if available):
Lee Robinson*|*Alcorn State,*OLB*:*2009 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

but if it's all the same in the sixth round, I'd pick up Brinkley.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I ask this because I don't know the answer--who do you think would be able to contribute more (to the team as a whole, not necessarily at LB) as a rookie, Sintim or Barwin?

There's a head scratcher.

LB:
-- Barwin: not so much.
-- Sintim: he could take some reps.

ST:
-- Barwin: Solid contribution.
-- Sintim: hard to project.

TE:
-- Barwin: he could take some reps.
-- Sintim: n/a

I think looking at them as 2nd and 3rd year players should be weighed:

LB:
-- Barwin: may be able to take some reps.
-- Sintim: part of the rotation.

ST:
-- Barwin: Solid.
--Sintim: I just haven't seen him in a STs situation to project him.

TE:
-- Barwin: he could be part of the rotation.
-- Sintim: n/a

 

[mayoclinic]

Sintim. Look what a couple of years in Al Groh's D did for Vince Redd in terms of preparedness. Sintim would have a better idea of the defense and did more than put a hand on the ground and rush the passer.

Barwin seems the better overall athlete, but Sintim would contribute faster.

At LB alone you're undoubtedly correct, Sintim is more experienced and more likely to contribute as a rookie. But overall Barwin would contribute a lot on ST, as a third TE (especially in red zone situations) and as a situational pass rusher (where he is definitely better than Sintim), so it would be somewhat closer. Barwin has more versatility, better intangibles, is a better athlete, and has a higher upside, so I like him better. But both are terrific prospects.

 

[MetalBleachers]

At LB alone you're undoubtedly correct, Sintim is more experienced and more likely to contribute as a rookie. But overall Barwin would contribute a lot on ST, as a third TE (especially in red zone situations) and as a situational pass rusher (where he is definitely better than Sintim), so it would be somewhat closer. Barwin has more versatility, better intangibles, is a better athlete, and has a higher upside, so I like him better. But both are terrific prospects.

I agree, but I'm curious about what should be desired in a top-50 pick: a regular contributor on D (or O, for that matter), or an all-around athlete who can succeed in many areas (but not a regular contributor on D or O)?

This isn't a rhetorical question: I'm interested in opinions of what should be expected out of a Sintim or Barwin pick.

 

[MetalBleachers]

Barwin is my binky, and I will be extremely disappointed if we don't get him, but certainly won't jump off any bridges.

Interesting, Scott Wright's Senior Bowl coverage at nfldraftcountdown lists Barwin under the TEs rather than the DEs. Does anyone know anything about this? Is he playing in the Senior Bowl as a TE rather than a DE, or this just a mistake? I've heard that some teams are uncertain about whether he would be a better fit at TE or DE/LB, and wondered whether he is trying to show at both positions in the pre-draft phase.

Barwin weighed in at the Senior Bowl at 6'3.3" and 254 lbs. with arm length of 33 inches and a hand span of 9 7/8 inches. Wright's weigh in comments call him "disappointing and very average", which is good news as far as I'm concerned, as I want him to last to the Pats at #47.

Two of my other favorite Pats prospects apparently looked less than stellar at the Senior Bowl weekends. William Beatty, OT from Connecticut (whom I would love at #57 but who seems to be rising fast and is rumored to be giving Eben Britton a run as the #5 OT) weighed in at 6'6" but only 291 lbs., and Wright called him "thin with limited muscle definition". (I remember people posting photos of Ryan Clady last year and commenting on his "spindly" legs and lack of bulk). And Trevor Cantwell, OG from Cincinnati (whom I would jump on in the 3rd round) weighed in at 6'4.44" and 311#. Wright's comment was "There must be some muscle somewhere?" However these guys may look at weigh-ins, they're going to be players.

This is a little OT, but I love Wright's description of the STers, with the word "poor" getting tossed around a lot, and one saying, "Looks like a kicker."

Well, if it looks like a kicker, and acts like a kicker ...

 

[mayoclinic]

I agree, but I'm curious about what should be desired in a top-50 pick: a regular contributor on D (or O, for that matter), or an all-around athlete who can succeed in many areas (but not a regular contributor on D or O)?

This isn't a rhetorical question: I'm interested in opinions of what should be expected out of a Sintim or Barwin pick.

Russ Lande from The Sporting News has an interesting article out today on prospects who he thinks need to show well at the Senior Bowl, and lists Sintim as one of them: "Opinions vary greatly on Sintim, and the big debate centers on his athleticism. He must prove he has the quickness, agility and speed to take advantage of his size/strength and become a good NFL starter. With a big week of practice, Sintim could move into Day 1 consideration. If he looks limited athletically, as many think he will, he could slide into the fourth round." That's the first I've heard that Sintim could slip out of the first day altogether. The link is SportingNews.com - Your expert source for NFL Football stats, scores, standings, blogs and fantasy news from NFL Football columnists

 

[MetalBleachers]

Thanks, Mayo. Here's Sintim (#51) on one bad play (can't hold contain early) and one good play (sacks the UNC QB at about 2:05). Overall, I see him as a second-rounder. We'll see. YouTube - Virginia vs. North Carolina, 2008

 

[mmasterkillah]

Brian Toal will likely be more like 245 come next season. I wouldn't be entirely shocked if he ended up as a FB as the NFL level either, though. I'd say he is around Bruschi's size right now.
Vilma can succeed in a 3-4, especially under BB. He has a nose for the ball and wants to play for a winner.
Gerald McRath is in the Gary Guyton mold, so if he is around in the 4th-5th round I'd be thrilled. He is only about 6'2" 230, but the guy truly loves football and his mentality is perfect for the Patriots.

The other couple guys I mentioned would not be worth day one picks like Connor Barwin may indeed be, but I feel that the depth could help us find a gem later on in the draft. I think that as a team we realize that with such a stout D-Line, we need strong tacklers who can get to the ball and also be good cover linebackers.

I do expect us to try to find a Ted Johnson type to compliment Mayo to, but that is more likely in FA or a first rounder based on what I see available. I'm also not sure how many legit 250 pound LBers are coming out these days, so we gotta either pick them real high or settle for 230 guys and hope they can ultimately put on some bulk.

When I saw him play Levy looked like an exceptional athlete for the LB spot. Once again, he would fit a certain mold of player in which I think we are interested in these days. I do like Casillas as well, and would be happy with him, but I think he will go higher than Levy.

Slade Norris has been productive and played everywhere on the D-Line. Also, he should run surprisingly well and end up being drafted late IMO.

 

[Clonamery]

Brian Toal will likely be more like 245 come next season. I wouldn't be entirely shocked if he ended up as a FB as the NFL level either, though. I'd say he is around Bruschi's size right now.
Vilma can succeed in a 3-4, especially under BB. He has a nose for the ball and wants to play for a winner.
Gerald McRath is in the Gary Guyton mold, so if he is around in the 4th-5th round I'd be thrilled. He is only about 6'2" 230, but the guy truly loves football and his mentality is perfect for the Patriots.

The other couple guys I mentioned would not be worth day one picks like Connor Barwin may indeed be, but I feel that the depth could help us find a gem later on in the draft. I think that as a team we realize that with such a stout D-Line, we need strong tacklers who can get to the ball and also be good cover linebackers.

I do expect us to try to find a Ted Johnson type to compliment Mayo to, but that is more likely in FA or a first rounder based on what I see available. I'm also not sure how many legit 250 pound LBers are coming out these days, so we gotta either pick them real high or settle for 230 guys and hope they can ultimately put on some bulk.

When I saw him play Levy looked like an exceptional athlete for the LB spot. Once again, he would fit a certain mold of player in which I think we are interested in these days. I do like Casillas as well, and would be happy with him, but I think he will go higher than Levy.

Slade Norris has been productive and played everywhere on the D-Line. Also, he should run surprisingly well and end up being drafted late IMO.

Vilma at safety? He's what 6' 225lbs?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I think that as a team we realize that with such a stout D-Line, we need strong tacklers who can get to the ball and also be good cover linebackers.

I disagree with this perspective. While NE needs strong tacklers who can get to the ball, they need to do so "in trash."

Bruschi made a living sifting through the blockers to get to the ball carrier. TJ made a living blasting the blockers head-on and using their corpses to trip or bludgeon the ball carrier.

Part of the reason former DL are sought after for the Pats 3-4 is their ability to engage, stack, and shed a blocker with good hands, strength, and technique. As I read your description above, I wind up picturing a 4-3 MLB who uses his two big DTs as screens so he has an unimpeded path to the ball carrier - when he is impeded by a blocker he disappears (the Ray Lewis complaint about the 3-4).

 

[BradyManny]

I disagree with this perspective. While NE needs strong tacklers who can get to the ball, they need to do so "in trash."

Bruschi made a living sifting through the blockers to get to the ball carrier. TJ made a living blasting the blockers head-on and using their corpses to trip or bludgeon the ball carrier.

Part of the reason former DL are sought after for the Pats 3-4 is their ability to engage, stack, and shed a blocker with good hands, strength, and technique. As I read your description above, I wind up picturing a 4-3 MLB who uses his two big DTs as screens so he has an unimpeded path to the ball carrier - when he is impeded by a blocker he disappears (the Ray Lewis complaint about the 3-4).

BOR, what do you think of AD as the SILB in the 3-4 and then moving outside in the nickel/dime? I could be wrong, but I think finding an impact run stuffer inside in the base D is more a little difficult than finding a guy to set the edge. Woods showed he can set the edge last year against the run.

I thought AD was great at SILB in the start of 07 and that the run defense dropped considerably once Colvin got injured and everything changed. I like AD outside, too, but on the run-first kind of downs, I think he has a bigger impact inside.

To me, Woods-Mayo-AD-Vrabel is stronger than AD-Mayo-Bruschi-Vrabel at this point in Bru's career.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Vilma at safety? He's what 6' 225lbs?

People often point out that BB liked Vilma and wanted to draft him, which made no sense to me if BB were looking for a 3-4 ILB (as Vilma's experience in the Mangini version demonstrated to 'most'). If BB did want to draft Vilma, I've often speculated that he had another role in mind for the young man - Tank Williams was in training to play a S/LB hybrid for better coverage on passing downs, why not an exellent coverage LB in that role?

Vilma played in NY at 335.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

BOR, what do you think of AD as the SILB in the 3-4 and then moving outside in the nickel/dime? I could be wrong, but I think finding an impact run stuffer inside in the base D is more a little difficult than finding a guy to set the edge. Woods showed he can set the edge last year against the run.

I thought AD was great at SILB in the start of 07 and that the run defense dropped considerably once Colvin got injured and everything changed. I like AD outside, too, but on the run-first kind of downs, I think he has a bigger impact inside.

To me, Woods-Mayo-AD-Vrabel is stronger than AD-Mayo-Bruschi-Vrabel at this point in Bru's career.

Bingo, we have bingo. Though I'm still shopping for a young buck to pair inside with Mayo for the long term (Sintim this year or Norwood next year).

 

[mayoclinic]

Vilma played in NY at 335.

At 335, maybe he could back up Wilfork at NT.