Tebow to Pats rumor

[Ironman44]

I completely agree that Tim Tebow was an effective game manager for the Broncos. What I don't agree is that he is a good Quarterback for the Broncos.

And yes, I don't happen to think it's that great because you're including rushing contributions to the Quarterback's foremost important job, passing the football.

I do agree that Tebow has been an effective runner with the committee over there at Broncoland.

Well tebow does it in a different way, he runs instead of dump passes (he hardly ever checks down...ever...that needs to be coached out of him).

We will agree to disagree, the 950 yards rushing did indeed move the chains and the ball, production was production, almost 4000 yards and 32 Tds (16 starts spread across two seasons and some situational play) ...that is a boat load for a first year starter thrust into a tense situation with a team that all it had done previously in the previous 31 games , was to amass the worst record in the NFL during that span...from worst to beating the steelers in a playoff game is quite a swing.
The fact is, when viewed objectively, tebow is not only not bad, but probably pretty good.

 

[Ring 6]

Tebow in his first and only 16 starts did indeed beat Elway in just about every category and he did have almost 4000 total yards and 32 Tds.

Elway is a hall of famer but tebow , for what he is, a first year starter, did REALLY good. Listening to some of the posters here you would think he had 1500 yards and 4 Tds not 3,842 total yards and 32 TDs

And there is no difference between the rules of 1983 and 2011 right? And they were asked to do the same things right?
The quesiton remains.
Are you seriously going to tell me that if you looked at Elway after his 1st 16 games and Tebow after his, you would tell me that Tebow has a brighter future?
Because that is what you are trying to imply here.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

How about you list the completion % when he had a quality TE in Hernandez? How about that?

You need to bring college stats to the table? Now this is just getting sad.

 

[ausbacker]

Well tebow does it in a different way, he runs instead of dump passes (he hardly ever checks down...ever...that needs to be coached out of him).

We will agree to disagree, the 950 yards rushing did indeed move the chains and the ball, production was production, almost 4000 yards and 32 Tds (16 starts spread across two seasons and some situational play) ...that is a boat load for a first year starter thrust into a tense situation with a team that all it had done previously in the previous 31 games , was to amass the worst record in the NFL during that span...from worst to beating the steelers in a playoff game is quite a swing.
The fact is, when viewed objectively, tebow is not only not bad, but probably pretty good.

I simply don't agree with you that a run first pass second Quarterback posting the numbers you have presented is impressive. Tebow is a below average passer of the ball and the fundamental skill to being a Quarterback is passing the football. I won't question his leadership credentials and ability to make believers of his team mates.

It was a nice story in 2011. If he improves his level of passing aptitude and proficiency in 2012, then we should revisit this thread. Until then, he's just an product of the ESPN hype machine thanks to a favourable draw, some dumb luck and his teammates raising their level of play around him thanks to his ability to keep them in the game.

 

[Ring 6]

Thats because he had 2 young receivers and scrub TEs "helping him". Yet you chose to completely ignore this FACT, and harp on and on and on and on and on about his completion %.

A quality TE is a young QB's GOLDEN friend. When the young QB has scrub TEs and only 2 young receivers who can be doubled and taken out, it's obvious that his completion % with take a severe nosedive. Yet, when Tebow had a quality TE in college, his completion % was respectable.

I do not accept the excuse that his completion percentage being substanitally below even acceptable can be blamed on his TE.
No one doubled Bronco receivers, they put 8 men in the box and begged them to throw.
His completion % against college players is simply irrelevant to his play in the NFL.

 

[patsderoer]

You need to bring college stats to the table? Now this is just getting sad.

I feel the need to bring stats when Tebow had a quality TE helping him. Whats sad that you continue to ignore what Tebow had to work with, you just join the gang who harp on and on and on about his completion %, without pointing out the situation. Thats what is really sad.

 

[ivanvamp]

Thats because he had 2 young receivers and scrub TEs "helping him". Yet you chose to completely ignore this FACT, and harp on and on and on and on and on about his completion %.

A quality TE is a young QB's GOLDEN friend. When the young QB has scrub TEs and only 2 young receivers who can be doubled and taken out, it's obvious that his completion % with take a severe nosedive. Yet, when Tebow had a quality TE in college, his completion % was respectable.

Two facts:

(1) At the time he graduated from Florida, he was the highest rated passer in collegiate football history. As in, of all time. And it's not like he played in a weak conference. He won two national championships playing in the best conference in America, the SEC. In college, he was a terrific passer.

(2) In the NFL, he has not been a good passer, by essentially any measure.

 

[Ironman44]

I will trust your stats. I am not impressed.

well I meant fact chekc it in a serious way, sometimes the meaning of what is said on the internet gets lost, I actually meant help me check the facts (I think I got it right though).

Denver was 7-24 in previous 31 games before tebow started (worst in the NFL during that span) and while it was not all him (good defense at stretches and kicking game contributed just as much) his leadership intangibles helped the team gel. They went on an 8-5 run with a playoff win. You add 3800+ total yards and 32 TDs and while you might not be impressed, it certainly merits some development and at the very least a second look.

he did produce yards
he did produce touch downs
he did produce wins

all for a first time starter. The kid is not garbage. In fact the patriots would be lucky to get him and develop him at several positions.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Brady would fail if he only had Decker and Royal and some scrub TEs. He would be even lower than a below average QB in that offense.

What the hell are you talking about? Brady won a super bowl with Troy Brown, David Patten and Jermaine Wiggins.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I feel the need to bring stats when Tebow had a quality TE helping him. Whats sad that you continue to ignore what Tebow had to work with, you just join the gang who harp on and on and on about his completion %, without pointing out the situation. Thats what is really sad.

Wait! Tebow's Mom posts here?

 

[ausbacker]

well I meant fact chekc it in a serious way, sometimes the meaning of what is said on the internet gets lost, I actually meant help me check the facts (I think I got it right though).

Denver was 7-24 in previous 31 games before tebow started (worst in the NFL during that span) and while it was not all him (good defense at stretches and kicking game contributed just as much) his leadership intangibles helped the team gel. They went on an 8-5 run with a playoff win. You add 3800+ total yards and 32 TDs and while you might not be impressed, it certainly merits some development and at the very least a second look.

he did produce yards
he did produce touch downs
he did produce wins

all for a first time starter. The kid is not garbage. In fact the patriots would be lucky to get him and develop him at several positions.

Say the Patriots traded or acquired Tim Tebow. Who of the following players would he be ahead of on the depth chart?

QB - Brady Hoyer Mallett
RB - Ridley Vereen
TE - Gronkowski Hernandez

Perhaps now you will start to see the difficulty in acquiring a project given roster composition and positional skill sets?

 

[Ironman44]

And there is no difference between the rules of 1983 and 2011 right? And they were asked to do the same things right?
The quesiton remains.
Are you seriously going to tell me that if you looked at Elway after his 1st 16 games and Tebow after his, you would tell me that Tebow has a brighter future?
Because that is what you are trying to imply here.

Tebow does not have a brighter future than Elway, I would say 90% of all QBs in the league right now do not have a brighter future than Elway. So certainly not implying that.

What I am trying to say is this:


I read how most of you think Tebow is complete hot garbage
I looked up and posted his stats (total yards 3842, 32 Td etc in 16 starts and some situation play)
I don't understand , taking all the factors, how anyone that is a football fan would think he is not worth developing.

It is a huge assumption to say he will stay in statis and not develop. All things considered Tebow did real well last year and the few games he started the year before. At the very least he is a red zone TD slot machine. 32 NFL Tds is 32 NFL Tds. whats he going to be doing with better players around him and more experience? 40 Tds?

The patriots would be lucky to get him and develop him at several positions . Its as if the ESPN hype machine doomed this kids future.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The problem for poor Tim is if he wants to be a QB he has to either go to a team willing to run the option or go to a team willing to invest in attempting to develop him into a pocket passer. That's why Elway doesn't want him. He's like a great football player who might have been a good QB in some alternate universe...or forty years ago. If he just wants to play in the NFL that's a different discussion - maybe he can learn to be some kind of TE/Hback. Problem now is I doubt his legion of worshipers will allow him to make that decision and any team that brings him in will face a distraction. For some he would represent a draw either way, the Florida teams, but he will only draw for so long. Denver almost saw his draw max out down the stretch. The JETS then gave it life again. Until we put it back in perspective.

I know Tebow is still young and he's certainly a gamer but in three years he's failed to develop in any way that would indicate he has a propensity to become an NFL franchise QB. Franchise icon, sure, but that's almost the worst thing he is from a management standpoint. He has the potential to tear a team and even a franchise apart - which in addition to his inability to win now (apart from randomly) is why Elway is desperate enough to pay whatever he has to to land Manning. They know they can move on from Manning in 3-4 years and start over without repercussion. From Tim there is no light at the end of the tunnel short of sabotaging him, and Fox can't do that or he will be out right behind him.

Any team not planning on him playing QB would also have to be concerned about his contract which while it contained base salaries that are not a problem has $23M in incentive and escalator clauses built into it based on things like playing time and playoff appearances, some of which he met last season...

 

[Ring 6]

well I meant fact chekc it in a serious way, sometimes the meaning of what is said on the internet gets lost, I actually meant help me check the facts (I think I got it right though).

Denver was 7-24 in previous 31 games before tebow started (worst in the NFL during that span) and while it was not all him (good defense at stretches and kicking game contributed just as much) his leadership intangibles helped the team gel. They went on an 8-5 run with a playoff win. You add 3800+ total yards and 32 TDs and while you might not be impressed, it certainly merits some development and at the very least a second look.

he did produce yards
he did produce touch downs
he did produce wins

all for a first time starter. The kid is not garbage. In fact the patriots would be lucky to get him and develop him at several positions.

I didn't say he was garbage. I am sure he is a great guy. I would take him as my neighbor.
I think he is a great competitor and a quality guy but he just is not an NFL caliber QB.
If his defense played average, instead of 8-8 they would have been 4-12. Thats a fact. I cannot ignore that they won in spite of him.
Is it possible that he develops quarterbacking skills? Perhaps, but I wouldn't bank on it.
I don't see what good he would do the Patriots. I'm just not a big fan of putting players out of position, when you can get a good player at that postion. Look at the possibilities:
QB-we have beaten that to death
RB- He does not have the speed or vision to play RB
FB- He has never thrown a block or caught a pass, or at least not many
TE- See FB
WR- See FB

I don't know why we would take a guy without the position skills and put him at a position when we can have a guy who has the skills of the position there.

I'm sorry you are taking this so personally, I am just being honest about the skill level that I see.

 

[ausbacker]

Tebow does not have a brighter future than Elway, I would say 90% of all QBs in the league right now do not have a brighter future than Elway. So certainly not implying that.

What I am trying to say is this:


I read how most of you think Tebow is complete hot garbage
I looked up and posted his stats (total yards 3842, 32 Td etc in 16 starts and some situation play)
I don't understand , taking all the factors, how anyone that is a football fan would think he is not worth developing.

It is a huge assumption to say he will stay in statis and not develop. All things considered Tebow did real well last year and the few games he started the year before. At the very least he is a red zone TD slot machine. 32 NFL Tds is 32 NFL Tds. whats he going to be doing with better players around him and more experience? 40 Tds?

The patriots would be lucky to get him and develop him at several positions . Its as if the ESPN hype machine doomed this kids future.

Because he has a regular season career completion percentage of 47.3. In a pass happy league where rules accommodate the passing game, that's not very good.

I'll give him his dues, he does appear to have a strong long ball.

 

[Ironman44]

Say the Patriots traded or acquired Tim Tebow. Who of the following players would he be ahead of on the depth chart?

QB - Brady Hoyer Mallett
RB - Ridley Vereen
TE - Gronkowski Hernandez

Perhaps now you will start to see the difficulty in acquiring a project given roster composition and positional skill sets?

he would be a monster if he started at RB (what BB could do with him boggles the mind) but that assumes he would be willing to do it...

 

[patsderoer]

What the hell are you talking about? Brady won a super bowl with Troy Brown, David Patten and Jermaine Wiggins.

Amazing what the Tebow-haters have to resort to. They now claim that a great Pats receiver like Troy Brown is some scrub or average receiver. That shows what clowns they are.
Troy Brown Tribute - NFL Wide Receiver - YouTube

 

[ausbacker]

he would be a monster if he started at RB (what BB could do with him boggles the mind) but that assumes he would be willing to do it...

Given the use of the Patriots rushing attack, that mentality is negligible at best.

 

[Ironman44]

Because he has a regular season career completion percentage of 47.3. In a pass happy league where rules accommodate the passing game, that's not very good.

I'll give him his dues, he does appear to have a strong long ball.

but alot of QBs had a low completion percentage in their first year starting....its his first year!

I would understand your sentiment if we are 3 or 4 years as a starter in...the fact is he is not and the Broncos offense dictated he throw long almost all the time. here is what Elway said in a press conference:

"Your completion % is going to be decided by the way the defense is playing you. If they play you in man coverage, and have 9 in the box, and give you the deep ball, don't expect a quarterback to be a 60% passer. The best you're going to be is about 50% and it's about what you can do within that percentage."

John Elway

 

[ausbacker]

but alot of QBs had a low completion percentage in their first year starting....its his first year!

I would understand your sentiment if we are 3 or 4 years as a starter in...the fact is he is not and the Broncos offense dictated he throw long almost all the time. here is what Elway said in a press conference:

"Your completion % is going to be decided by the way the defense is playing you. If they play you in man coverage, and have 9 in the box, and give you the deep ball, don't expect a quarterback to be a 60% passer. The best you're going to be is about 50% and it's about what you can do within that percentage."

John Elway

2011 was not Tim Tebow's first season in the NFL. It doesn't make one iota's difference to me that 2011 was his first year starting. He already had a year's worth of exposure to the NFL environment to work on plenty of things in the passing game.