Source: Aqib Talib wants top-of-the-market deal

[Sicilian]

I'm not asking them to go Ham. I'm asking them to make sure they keep their top flight Corner or at least add replace him with one and add maybe 1 or two good players, not elite guys.

And when had NE gone out and signed the #1 ranked CB or player for that matter in free agency?!

Good, not elite, eh?

 

[TomNGisele]

Good, not elite, eh?

To replace Talib, wouldn't it be the #1 FA? Or 2, because Talib is probably #1.

I just don't see how you can downgrade and feel good about the defense. I don't see a scenario where they can improve the front 7 enough to warrant that.

Give me Revis

 

[Sicilian]

I'm not asking them to go Ham.

Give me Revis

Mmhmm.....

 

[TomNGisele]

Mmhmm.....

Who wouldn't want Revis?! But that's a pipe dream and certainly not a demand of mine.

I do demand them to avoid going backwards though

Hope that clears it up for you

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Who wouldn't want Revis?! But that's a pipe dream and certainly not a demand of mine.

I do demand them to avoid going backwards though

Hope that clears it up for you

I hope that the team acquiesces to your demands. It's very important that they do so.

They are going to be better next year, and they don't have to have Talib or Revis to do so.

Turning the front seven to a dominant unit is significantly more doable than you think. I'd like to see Talib retained, but his hip injuries are a major concern and his price needs to reflect that.

 

[TomNGisele]

What gives you the impression they will be better next year without Talib or a replacement?!

 

[Sicilian]

What gives you the impression they will be better next year without Talib or a replacement?!

Why do you think that CB = Entire Defense? Off the top of your head, name the top corner on each of the last 10 Super Bowl winners besides Sherman last year with Seattle. It's not like QB, where it makes or breaks a defense. To say they need Talib or an equivalent CB or they can't improve is an asininely specific requirement that ignores how much of a TEAM sport football is.

 

[Kontradiction]

Verner's can't match up well with big/tall receivers.

I didn't see this to be the case. Can't you point to a match-up where you saw Verner openly struggle with a taller WR?

You're point on Shields only proves my point to me.

My point about Shields being able to go man to man with faster receivers, something Talib struggles with, only proves your point that he's "significantly worse" than Talib. Eh? Might want to re-think that one.

And how about we use our own eyes and make our own evaluations rather than relying on "ratings". Davis IMO is a big step down talent-wise from Talib in M2M.

I used my eyes in the process as well but, when arguing a point, I like to use a little more than "the eye test" to make my point. In this case, I've been backed up. Davis is a step down in man to man from Talib, but it isn't as "significant" as you made it out to be.

All three a noticeable step downs, significantly worse might have been a little too strong.

Of course it was. Noticeable step downs is a little better. Talib, when healthy, is a top five CB in the NFL. The issue is that he's never played a full 16 game season so, if the team moves on from him, I would prefer one of the aforementioned guys and/or Browner (for example) while filling in the other pieces with quality FA's like Houston and Ward.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

What gives you the impression they will be better next year without Talib or a replacement?!

Do a better job of reading the post. It was not opined that "they would be better without Talib or a replacement," because that wouldn't even make sense. The opinion was that the team would be better with or without Talib because they have a plethora of options to help accomplish that goal.

The point is that signing an elite corner is not the only way to skin this cat. Retaining Talib or acquiring Revis for light scratch (unlikely) are ideal, but there is a massive amount of free agent and draft talent in the front seven. Last year the market was heavily in favor of the buyer at those positions, and the influx of available players make it very likely that a repeat of that market is in store. Bringing in a veteran like Kevin Williams or Red Bryant for far less than expected is a distinct possibility. Depth at defensive line is almost certain to be acquired, especially after they had none last year. There is also the chance that Armond Armstead emerges if he can return to health.

The secondary is certainly a concern, but if the safety position is upgraded, which is a distinct possibility, having a lockdown corner is no longer a must. The draft contains a good amount of long and physical cornerback prospects, and Logan Ryan is almost certain to improve in his second season.

The point is that the Pats will not, and should not, simply hand Aqib Talib a blank check to pacify fans who are afraid of the alternatives.

 

[TomNGisele]

Why do you think that CB = Entire Defense? Off the top of your head, name the top corner on each of the last 10 Super Bowl winners besides Sherman last year with Seattle. It's not like QB, where it makes or breaks a defense. To say they need Talib or an equivalent CB or they can't improve is an asininely specific requirement that ignores how much of a TEAM sport football is.

Regardless of what you think makes or breaks a defense, you saw ours with and without him the last two seasons. He made or broke our defense.

If you think they can dramatically change the defense to where that's not the case I'm all for that.. But good luck

 

[Sicilian]

Regardless of what you think makes or breaks a defense, you saw ours with and without him the last two seasons. He made or broke our defense.

If you think they can dramatically change the defense to where that's not the case I'm all for that.. But good luck

The defense broke when Talib got hurt... after Mayo, Wilfork, Kelly, and Spikes were lost for the season, and coinciding with injuries to Arrington (who required surgery) and Dennard. This was also with Gregory at safety who shouldn't be too hard to upgrade, and an offense that couldn't sustain a drive to save their life. But no, you're right, let's pin everything on just Talib, that's probably how life works.

And the point is moot if he goes out and gets hurt again, as he's done in each of the past two seasons in the biggest game of the year. Good luck having your defense built around him if that happens again.

I want Talib on the field. I don't want to overpay to keep Talib because I'm too scared to imagine any other way to build a defense that doesn't depend on a time bomb hip.

 

[Deus Irae]

Look, you are the one who said that the Patriots "not mortgaging the future" has not brought the Patriots to the SB. You did not define what that meant to you, I at least defined the term.

You then went on to disagree with my definition without offering an alternative...

You are the one who brought up the Steelers as a team that has tiwce won the Superbowl, I presume you meant by "mortgaging the future" but since you did not define the term, you must have meant something else, because the Steelers build through the draft and they got into cap trouble only after they won their last Superbowl and gave out big contract to players on their team.

So, your argument is based on assumptions built on no actually substance. Unless you are willing or maybe courageous enough to define what "mortgaging the future" means to you, your argument lacks substance and is only at the "meh" level of name calling and "because I said so" style.

My argument is based on precisely what was noted. "Not mortgaging the future" has brought about zero SB wins since 2004. It's paid no dividends.

And I've explained the Steelers inclusion multiple times. It's not difficult to grasp.



Your argument sucked.. Sorry, but it is what it is.

 

[TomNGisele]

The defense broke when Talib got hurt... after Mayo, Wilfork, Kelly, and Spikes were lost for the season, and coinciding with injuries to Arrington (who required surgery) and Dennard. This was also with Gregory at safety who shouldn't be too hard to upgrade, and an offense that couldn't sustain a drive to save their life. But no, you're right, let's pin everything on just Talib, that's probably how life works.



And the point is moot if he goes out and gets hurt again, as he's done in each of the past two seasons in the biggest game of the year. Good luck having your defense built around him if that happens again.



I want Talib on the field. I don't want to overpay to keep Talib because I'm too scared to imagine any other way to build a defense that doesn't depend on a time bomb hip.

Defense has sucked for years. Coincidentally it improved with Talib I guess.

Dennard is meh. They won't go pay for a safety. They won't go pay for a pass rusher. They won't do it. Talib was a huge piece whether you want to admit it or not.

If Ryan and Dennard are your answers, enjoy another ****ty season from the defense.

 

[Nunchucks]

My argument is based on precisely what was noted. "Not mortgaging the future" has brought about zero SB wins since 2004. It's paid no dividends.

And I've explained the Steelers inclusion multiple times. It's not difficult to grasp.



Your argument sucked.. Sorry, but it is what it is.

Without your definition of "mortgaging the future" your argument is not substantive and nonsensical.

And you Steelers reference is easy to understand, just simply wrong.

 

[Deus Irae]

Without your definition of "mortgaging the future" your argument is not substantive and nonsensical.

What a silly thing to say. You were the one saying that the Patriots have not mortgaged the future. My response was based off of that.

And you Steelers reference is easy to understand, just simply wrong.

Since it's clearly correct, you either trolling or clueless, as I noted before. It's one or the other.

 

[Triumph]

The funny thing is, it sounds like the Pats could convert Revis' contract into a more affordable contract than what Talib may be seeking in terms of the cap numbers....

I'm all for that. Go get him Billy

Revis is a shut down CB. Talib is not. Steve Smith tore Talib a new one.

If the price to trade wasnt terrible and Revis wanted reasonable money, I want Revis.

 

[supafly]

Regardless of what you think makes or breaks a defense, you saw ours with and without him the last two seasons. He made or broke our defense.

If you think they can dramatically change the defense to where that's not the case I'm all for that.. But good luck

For the first 6 games, he was allowing completion rates that rivaled the best in the league, around the high 30 percent range. He picked off 4 passes, and many had him in the discussion for DPOY.

He then got hurt, missed 5 weeks (only 3 games due to the bye) and came back. When he returned, he went from giving up a completion rate in the 30's to giving up 2/3 of all attempts, as his rate jumped to about 66%. He failed to intercept another pass in N.England's last 12 games (including postseason). Out of all CB's in the NFL, Talib ranked dead last in yards per attempt from the opposing QB.

He obviously makes the secondary better when he's healthy and plays, but no one has any idea when he'll miss time, when he'll be 70%, or when he'll be like he was in the first 6 games of the season--at full health.

You seem to insinuate that he's some Superman CB by just being in the lineup, and that's hardly the case, as you can see from the above numbers. He needs to be healthy, and it's impossible to predict if/when that will happen. The fact that he has had a chronic injury for 3-4 seasons in a row (with other nagging injuries prior to that) doesn't do much to put anyone's mind at ease.

We all hope that he'll agree to stay here on fair terms, but some are acting like he's a once in a lifetime player or something.

 

[supafly]

Revis is a shut down CB. Talib is not. Steve Smith tore Talib a new one.

If the price to trade wasnt terrible and Revis wanted reasonable money, I want Revis.

Obviously, we'd all want Revis, but after Tampa Bay just gave up a 1st + 3rd (or 4th, as it isn't decided yet), one would have to assume that they'd be holding out for at least a 1st rounder in compensation. Even then, they'd have lost a 3rd/4th for their one season rental.

I'm not sure that I'd see Bill Belichick giving up a 1st round draft pick.

On top of that, Revis currently makes 1 million per game, or 16 million per year. I'm not sure what your personal definition of "reasonable money" would be, but I'd have to think that he'll still be looking for something in the range of 11-12 million dollars, which is still an enormous pay cut for him to take.

So it really comes down to giving up a 1st round draft pick AND wanting to pay him 10-11-12 million dollars per year. It doesn't sound too likely in my opinion.

 

[TomNGisele]

If it's Revis vs Talib at similar money (Revis will be a bit more and worth it) we'd all prefer Revis.

But if he's not an option and he probably isn't... I think they need Talib

 

[Brady6]

For the first 6 games, he was allowing completion rates that rivaled the best in the league, around the high 30 percent range. He picked off 4 passes, and many had him in the discussion for DPOY.

He then got hurt, missed 5 weeks (only 3 games due to the bye) and came back. When he returned, he went from giving up a completion rate in the 30's to giving up 2/3 of all attempts, as his rate jumped to about 66%. He failed to intercept another pass in N.England's last 12 games (including postseason). Out of all CB's in the NFL, Talib ranked dead last in yards per attempt from the opposing QB.

He obviously makes the secondary better when he's healthy and plays, but no one has any idea when he'll miss time, when he'll be 70%, or when he'll be like he was in the first 6 games of the season--at full health.

You seem to insinuate that he's some Superman CB by just being in the lineup, and that's hardly the case, as you can see from the above numbers. He needs to be healthy, and it's impossible to predict if/when that will happen. The fact that he has had a chronic injury for 3-4 seasons in a row (with other nagging injuries prior to that) doesn't do much to put anyone's mind at ease.

We all hope that he'll agree to stay here on fair terms, but some are acting like he's a once in a lifetime player or something.

I am with you Sup, I do not get the belief that Talib is in line for a big contract. First the Dolphins overpay for players on a regular basis, look at their signings last season, so with that considered Grimes contract should be assessed in context with who gave it. The Dolphins are not a team that sets the market for UFA. Not to mention Grimes is worth more than Talib, he is just as good as a player, comes with none of the baggage and unlike Talib, he proved he could remain healthy.

More than that, I really do not understand what has changed from the 2013 UFA period when Talib received a 1-year $5 million contract to this impending UFA period. Did he play well last year? Absolutely but Talib has played well many times in his career, he compiled 11 interceptions and 26 pass defends in 2009 and 2010 combined, this play in 2013 was not a first. Despite that we were able to acquire him for a fourth round pick in 2012 and sign him for $5 million last offseason. Injuries are still a concern, and character concerns are still an issue, after the Hernandez situation, nobody is going to put any stock in the fact that nothing bad is being said about the player and assume the character issues are no longer an issue.

I think best case scenario Talib is looking at 3 years for maybe $6.5M per season, I would be shocked if the deal was any longer or cost more than $500K more per season than that.