(Sort of OT) Question for former IBWTers...

[lancerman]

The 3 big things that I think hurt Bill's credibility and led to his downfall.

1. The Butler benching. Whether you agree with it or not, we know that it was a divisive issue and it was a major breaking point for key players in their buy in for Bill. Particularly Brady and Gronk. It was a slow detoriation, but a detoriation nontheless.

2. Having Brady walk out the door without a proper replacement. I think a lot of us weren't thrilled when Brady left, but most of us irrationally believed that Bill would never go into a season with his pants down at the most important position if he was going to let Brady walk. People actually believed Stidham was going to end up being the next big franchise QB. Then Bill rushed to get Cam and Cam sucked. At that moment for me, it signaled that Bill either misread a situation or was willing to kneecap the team for some perceived sense in value for not getting a long term contract with Brady OR, more egregiously, completely underestimated how important QB was and really thought he could win with anybody and then started panicking last minute.

3. The Patricia hire. Everything else you could debate to some extent, though they did lose Bill buy in with the fans and players. It's hard to debate this. Everyone from the fans, to talking heads, to players, to other NFL executives went on record questioning that hire. It seemed like the whole NFL knew it was a bad idea except for Bill. He did it anyways, told us to blame him if it didn't work, and it didn't. So at that point you have to start to think Bill has way too much power to make an insane decision and he's dumb enough to actually make a decision that bad.

Those 3 were back breakers for him. It made it so he couldn't endure a season like this.

 

[signbabybrady]

That's no longer true.

Of course it's true there are players from last year's team that attest to it. Unfortunately the QBs weren't good enough.

Because the next young coach has proven to be successful at motivating the young players. Bill has not been able to do that anymore w/o a Brady in the locker room to translate Bill's message.

If they are a first timer they are unproven by fact. They might be able to motivate as Head coaches just as well as they did as assistants but more will fail than succeed and there's always another one like them in someone's pipeline.

No. Bill should've been fired last year. He was given one more chance and things got much worse. Do you think it's a coincidence that no team offered him a job? I get that he did great things here during the dynasty. All good things must come to an end. It's over. Let it go. Support Mayo.

Why yes I do think it's a coincidence but whatever the reasons more of them will regret it than don't.

 

[Tunescribe]

View attachment 56350...and then there's the Vile and Despicable edition!

Great work, Wax, we finally get a glimpse of things as they happened.

Tom truly was one of a kind -- his tongue is in front of his teeth! (Did BB wear a mouthguard or is that just an extra-large filling?)

 

[Tunescribe]

No. Bill should've been fired last year. He was given one more chance and things got much worse. Do you think it's a coincidence that no team offered him a job? I get that he did great things here during the dynasty. All good things must come to an end.

WHOA!!! Popular opinion appears to be having an influence!

It's over. Let it go.

YES!!! Now, please copy that and tape it to your bathroom mirror (assuming you have a mirror in your bathroom).

 

[RIpats88]

The 3 big things that I think hurt Bill's credibility and led to his downfall.

1. The Butler benching. Whether you agree with it or not, we know that it was a divisive issue and it was a major breaking point for key players in their buy in for Bill. Particularly Brady and Gronk. It was a slow detoriation, but a detoriation nontheless.

2. Having Brady walk out the door without a proper replacement. I think a lot of us weren't thrilled when Brady left, but most of us irrationally believed that Bill would never go into a season with his pants down at the most important position if he was going to let Brady walk. People actually believed Stidham was going to end up being the next big franchise QB. Then Bill rushed to get Cam and Cam sucked. At that moment for me, it signaled that Bill either misread a situation or was willing to kneecap the team for some perceived sense in value for not getting a long term contract with Brady OR, more egregiously, completely underestimated how important QB was and really thought he could win with anybody and then started panicking last minute.

3. The Patricia hire. Everything else you could debate to some extent, though they did lose Bill buy in with the fans and players. It's hard to debate this. Everyone from the fans, to talking heads, to players, to other NFL executives went on record questioning that hire. It seemed like the whole NFL knew it was a bad idea except for Bill. He did it anyways, told us to blame him if it didn't work, and it didn't. So at that point you have to start to think Bill has way too much power to make an insane decision and he's dumb enough to actually make a decision that bad.

Those 3 were back breakers for him. It made it so he couldn't endure a season like this.

pretty much this. I generally agreed with all Bill's decisions. and the performance on the field was proof enough.

but starting after that season with the Butler benching is when alot of his decisions as a GM started to go off the rails and its been downhill ever since... after that season is when he tried to trade Gronk away to Detroit, traded cooks away and refused to lock up brady long term. I mean if he trades Gronk (which i have no idea why he would) there is no superbowl #6. also Gronk probably retired because Bill tried to trade him and knew he would try again.....

and despite the small blip in 2021 10-7 making the playoffs. its been downhill every year.

 

[archstanton543]

3. The Patricia hire. Everything else you could debate to some extent, though they did lose Bill buy in with the fans and players. It's hard to debate this. Everyone from the fans, to talking heads, to players, to other NFL executives went on record questioning that hire. It seemed like the whole NFL knew it was a bad idea except for Bill. He did it anyways, told us to blame him if it didn't work, and it didn't. So at that point you have to start to think Bill has way too much power to make an insane decision and he's dumb enough to actually make a decision that bad.

The icing on the cake is (if the report is true. I think it is) he wanted to run it back with Patricia the following year.

 

[BennyBledsoe]

Hiring a defensive guy on offense isn't a bad move, necessarily. Just not as the head guy. You make him an assistant position coach or something. Dude has to learn.

And no, it wasn't just the execution that made Patricia look bad. There were numerous guys who pointed out how poor his play designs were.

 

[mister clyde]

"What made you say you're out on BB?"

Nothing.

I always believed that he could right the ship, and still do, but I do think he needed help in the personnel department. I think Eliot Wolf should have been stepped up into a proper GM role, and been given the power to say "this isn't a good idea".

But he's gone. Not going to go an rehash it. His run is over.

Hope Mayo is at least half as successful. If he is, then we win.

my 2¢

So you like Belichick and you have no doubt he could turn it around if he had personnel help. But BB was the one and only person who could get that help. He ran the show. He had final say on everything. He could've done what you wanted him to do, and he chose not to. In his mind, the way things went is how they should have gone. He wanted to keep Patricia as OC for christs sake.

How can anyone debate the fact that the game passed him by? For years I and many others questioned decisions BB made. Everyone but BB saw how badly the offense had been neglected. I was a huge IBWT guy for years. I gave him passes. At the end it seemed to me like he was more of a spoiled child throwing a tantrum than an mature adult with a plan. That Mac/Zappe thing was ridiculous. Pick one and go with them. They both suck, so whatever. But somehow BB took a bad situation and made it worse with his flip flopping. Nobody had a chance to get anything going.

And another thing- the benchings. There is a promising player. They do great in pre-season. They do good in the first game. In the second game they fumble in the first quarter, and they don't see the field again until like week 14 when the JAG that had been playing ever since that fumble gets hurt and there are no other options. I understand ball control. Sure it's important. If they fumble every game sure bench them. But any of us are lying if we said we had not had a time in the last couple seasons where we didn't think "WTF is he doing now?" in reaction to BB and his decisions/grudges regarding certain players.

 

[oldrover]

Consider yourself lucky. You could've gotten one of these instead.

View attachment 56350...and then there's the Vile and Despicable edition!

...okay... ... you guys are freaking me out a little...

 

[TomPatriot]

not a frequent poster so apologize in advance for asking. but what do RLKAG and OJKNB mean?

Ray Lewis killed a guy and OJ killed Nicole Brown. Two metaphors. Both true.

 

[Pape]

So you like Belichick and you have no doubt he could turn it around if he had personnel help. But BB was the one and only person who could get that help. He ran the show. He had final say on everything. He could've done what you wanted him to do, and he chose not to. In his mind, the way things went is how they should have gone. He wanted to keep Patricia as OC for christs sake.

RKK should have stepped in and said something /done something considering how things had been going. If it caused a divorce between BB and the Patriots earlier, so be it. Better for both if it had happened earlier than later.

How can anyone debate the fact that the game passed him by? For years I and many others questioned decisions BB made. Everyone but BB saw how badly the offense had been neglected. I was a huge IBWT guy for years. I gave him passes. At the end it seemed to me like he was more of a spoiled child throwing a tantrum than an mature adult with a plan. That Mac/Zappe thing was ridiculous. Pick one and go with them. They both suck, so whatever. But somehow BB took a bad situation and made it worse with his flip flopping. Nobody had a chance to get anything going.

Define "passed him by". And if that definition includes the phrase "he can't relate", i don't want to hear it. The players play football. They shouldn't require hand-holding. And if they do, they shouldn't be in the league.

And neglected the offense? 17 Offensive draft picks in the last three years alone. How many offensive free agents have been brought in over the past three years? That is how you define neglect? Its not neglect. The players haven't panned out. He should have done better. (see point 1.)

And another thing- the benchings. There is a promising player. They do great in pre-season. They do good in the first game. In the second game they fumble in the first quarter, and they don't see the field again until like week 14 when the JAG that had been playing ever since that fumble gets hurt and there are no other options. I understand ball control. Sure it's important. If they fumble every game sure bench them.

Have zero issues with hard line coaching. Have zero issues with players getting put in the dog house. We see the players screw up in a game, and they get benched. Okay... Bad Optics, for sure. How do they respond in practice? Are they still showing those same tendencies? How long have that had that issue in practice? How many times has it been corrected, only to have it crop back up? Once? A Dozen? I don't know, do you?

But any of us are lying if we said we had not had a time in the last couple seasons where we didn't think "WTF is he doing now?" in reaction to BB and his decisions/grudges regarding certain players.

Every coach gets questioned regarding players/actions. Its part of the game.

I get it. You don't like him. I do. He built and maintained this team for 20 years. I have faith that he could have righted the ship, with a little bit of help. Ymmv. Ultimately it doesn't matter. He's gone.

 

[archstanton543]

Define "passed him by". And if that definition includes the phrase "he can't relate", i don't want to hear it. The players play football. They shouldn't require hand-holding. And if they do, they shouldn't be in the league.

It a different league. It's a different generation of players. You can call them soft or spoiled or whatever but the fact remains. It takes a different approach. Even Pete Carroll's pumped and jacked routine wasn't playing anymore.

In a perfect world, yeah, they shouldn't require hand-holding...but they do. I wouldn't call it hand-holding but players today need someone they can relate to. For good or ill that's where the League is at (and the world at large with this new generation).

 

[VrabelJr]

RKK should have stepped in and said something /done something

It’s been reported that RK did start meddling after Brady won the Super Bowl in Tampa, and the results were as expected when a 5 foot nothing fat guy inserts himself into football decisions.

 

[Tunescribe]

...okay... ... you guys are freaking me out a little...

Sorry. Unfortunately, there's a lot of trial and error involved (at least in my case). @Wax Frog is on a more professional track.

 

[Pape]

It’s been reported that RK did start meddling after Brady won the Super Bowl in Tampa, and the results were as expected when a 5 foot nothing fat guy inserts himself into football decisions.

lol, by "done something" i don't mean RKK cosplaying Jerry Jones... I mean like hire a GM

 

[oldrover]

Sorry. Unfortunately, there's a lot of trial and error involved (at least in my case). @Wax Frog is on a more professional track.

I'm hoping both of you will see this message soon:

 

[FCB02062]

Years ago I was 100% IBWT. After the 11-5 Cassel year I thought Bill could win with any qb. That's why I thought the Cam Newton season would be better then it turned out.

I started souring on Bill when they didn't extend Brady past one year.
the decisions in the 2019 KC game and Tennessee game to go for a punt block instead of a return down 7 late in both games was completely bewildering, but the real, Come to Jesus moment was a weird one....it was the 2020 season at Gillette in front of no fans...the Denver game...James White ran on third down, got the first down clearly....refs made a terrible spot. brought up 4th down. I'm yelling at the screen CHALLENGE! and iirc, the play was right in front of Bill...the announcers were even saying it was a clear first down and a terrible spot...the camera showed Bill with the incredibly lost, bewildered look on his face...he never challenged the spot.
All we have to go on our facts, and the facts are Bill Belichick has a terrible record, is 1-2 in the playoffs, without Tom Brady.

 

[sb1]

Years ago I was 100% IBWT. After the 11-5 Cassel year I thought Bill could win with any qb. That's why I thought the Cam Newton season would be better then it turned out.

I started souring on Bill when they didn't extend Brady past one year.
the decisions in the 2019 KC game and Tennessee game to go for a punt block instead of a return down 7 late in both games was completely bewildering, but the real, Come to Jesus moment was a weird one....it was the 2020 season at Gillette in front of no fans...the Denver game...James White ran on third down, got the first down clearly....refs made a terrible spot. brought up 4th down. I'm yelling at the screen CHALLENGE! and iirc, the play was right in front of Bill...the announcers were even saying it was a clear first down and a terrible spot...the camera showed Bill with the incredibly lost, bewildered look on his face...he never challenged the spot.
All we have to go on our facts, and the facts are Bill Belichick has a terrible record, is 1-2 in the playoffs, without Tom Brady.

Lots of people talked up Bill taking that team to a 7-9 finish. I didn't think that was one of Bill's better years coaching and that Denver game is the first example that comes to mind.

 

[Wax Frog]

@Wax Frog is on a more professional track.

Thanks for the props! I do very little in the way of paid graphic design, but I guess the brain is wired well enough in those directions to get somewhat proficient.