So who in the Front 7 is a keeper for next season?

[mgteich]

Future cap hits are irrelevant for a player under contracty with no options. All that matters is the new money.

The patriots have the option to give Warren the following amounts for his services: $3.1M in 2011, $3.25M in 2012 and $3.9M in 2013. Each year the team has the ability to cut Warren before the first game and not owe any current or future year monies.

While there is always the risk of injury to consider, the primary decision is whether Warren is worth having on the 2011 team for $3.1M or whether he is not worth the money and should be cut or traded. To me, this is an absolute no-brainer. Ty Warren is certainly worth the money as part of a 5-man New England front.

Of course, the decision does not need to be made until the 2011 preseason is over.

Perhaps but not if you want the remaining years off the books and don't want to pay a player X if you don't think he will be worth it.

 

[RobertWeathers]

But that's about actual payout, and the cap his is irrelevant. Your argument is not whether a player is worth "salary + hit", because "hit" is there whether or not the player is retained. That leaves you arguing only "salary".

You are right. Let me try to explain my point a little better....

I am arguing the cap space that is allocated to the player over 3 years not longer viable as that space can be potentially be used for another player in year 2 or year 3.

To your point, if there is sizable bonus that to be paid and the club chooses not to for cash purposes then it makes sense to accrue the full cap hit that current financial year.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Future cap hits are irrelevant for a player under contracty with no options. All that matters is the new money.

The patriots have the option to give Warren the following amounts for his services: $3.1M in 2011, $3.25M in 2012 and $3.9M in 2013. Each year the team has the ability to cut Warren before the first game and not owe any current or future year monies.

While there is always the risk of injury to consider, the primary decision is whether Warren is worth having on the 2011 team for $3.1M or whether he is not worth the money and should be cut or traded. To me, this is an absolute no-brainer. Ty Warren is certainly worth the money as part of a 5-man New England front.

Of course, the decision does not need to be made until the 2011 preseason is over.

I see what you are saying. I guess my assumption is that if if BB chooses to cut Warren (not saying I want him gone, but openly wondering if BB still wants him and thinks hes worth the money), before the 2011 season, the team doesn't need to pay him his salary, but at the same time the team would recoup Ty's slottled "cap" space which would aid them if they wanted to sing a player a multi year deal that they felt needed that cap space?

I guess thats my real point here.

 

[Deus Irae]

You are right. Let me try to explain my point a little better....

I am arguing the cap space that is allocated to the player over 3 years not longer viable as that space can be potentially be used for another player in year 2 or year 3.

To your point, if there is sizable bonus that to be paid and the club chooses not to for cash purposes then it makes sense to accrue the full cap hit that current financial year.

But your argument is incorrect, because you're ignoring the distinction between salary and cap hit. The cap hit is meaningless. If, for example, the cap hit for a player is $15 million, and the salary is only $1 million, you're questioning whether or not that player is worth $1 million dollars that season. There are $14 million dollars that don't enter the equation.

In the case of Warren, the question is whether or not he's worth $3.1 million (using mgteich's numbers) in 2011. It's not about whether he's worth $5 million or more.

 

[RobertWeathers]

But your argument is incorrect, because you're ignoring the distinction between salary and cap hit. The cap hit is meaningless. If, for example, the cap hit for a player is $15 million, and the salary is only $1 million, you're questioning whether or not that player is worth $1 million dollars that season. There are $14 million dollars that don't enter the equation

If I'm a bank and I have slotted $15m in credit in 2011, 2012 and 2013 for just you and my total credit available for the world is $30m but then you tell you you've lost your job and can't pay me back, I no longer wish to provide you with that credit schedule. I'd rather give that credit to someone else over that same 3 year term. That is how I am seeing this, Deus.

In the case of Warren, the question is whether or not he's worth $3.1 million (using mgteich's numbers) in 2011. It's not about whether he's worth $5 million or more.

I hear ya. I just don't get why the Pats wouldn't find value in recouping cap space in 2012 and 2013 that could be used for future contracts.

I appreciate the help. I'll get it someday.

 

[Deus Irae]

If I'm a bank and I have slotted $15m in credit in 2011, 2012 and 2013 for just you and my total credit available for the world is $30m but then you tell you you've lost your job and can't pay me back, I no longer wish to provide you with that credit schedule. I'd rather give that credit to someone else over that same 3 year term. That is how I am seeing this, Deus.

You're making a bad equation, because you're ignoring the static nature of already lost cap space. It's gone. That's about $2 million dollars that the Patriots simply don't get to play with.

I hear ya. I just don't get why the Pats wouldn't find value in recouping cap space in 2012 and 2013 that could be used for future contracts.

I appreciate the help. I'll get it someday.

The only cap space that can be recouped is his salary. I'm not sure why you think $3.1 million is money that needs to be used for future contracts when we don't currently know the salary cap number for 2011, especially because some portion of that $3.1 million would have to be spent on Ty's replacement.

The question is whether you think Ty will be worth #3.1 million.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You're making a bad equation, because you're ignoring the static nature of already lost cap space. It's gone. That's about $2 million dollars that the Patriots simply don't get to play with.



The only cap space that can be recouped is his salary. I'm not sure why you think $3.1 million is money that needs to be used for future contracts when we don't currently know the salary cap number for 2011, especially because some portion of that $3.1 million would have to be spent on Ty's replacement.

The question is whether you think Ty will be worth #3.1 million.

Ok. Light bulb has gone off on cap stuff. Thanks.

If healthy, I think Ty is worth $3.1m next year. At 31 and 32. Don't know.

 

[Fencer]

Gerard Warren is signed through the 2011 season.

I hope you're right, but Miguel's page says otherwise.

 

[Uncle Rico]

I hope you're right, but Miguel's page says otherwise.

Reiss reported a one-year deal for GWarren when he was signed.

Gerard Warren: 1-year deal - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Deaderick may not be on the keeper list for 2011

 

[Fencer]

Deaderick may not be on the keeper list for 2011

I'm gathering that ...

 

[lamafist]

Not sure why Ty Warren's stock seems to have fallen in some fans' eyes.

The kind of surgery he had on his hip isn't usually considered career threatening, at 29, he's still very much in his prime, and, going into this season, has been playing at a consistently high level. If he were healthy this season, he'd be right up their with Wilfork as one of our best players on defense, and a veteran leader to boot.

As for the other Warren, I think the Pats would be very interested in resigning him, but with a number of teams out there still in the midst of a conversion to the 3-4, he'll end up getting more money elsewhere.

I'm also surprised by how much love Nincovich gets around here. He's been a decent stop-gap at OLB for us, but as far as I can tell, his biggest asset at this point is his coachability -- every week, the defense gets the new gameplan, and he executes it to a T, and in BB's defense, that goes a long way. The problem is, even when he puts himself in the right place at the right time, he doesn't win the one-on-one match-ups he needs to -- he's not a quick-shed guy, he gets sealed off by tight ends too easily, and he gets punked trying to tackle in space too often.

All that said, I still thinks he makes the Pats' roster next season, though filling more of a backup/special-teamer/emergency-long-snapper role.

Meanwhile, I think TBC will really have to fight for his spot in training camp. I think Eric Moore is turning heads, and with an offseason and training camp to learn the ins and outs of the defense, I think he'll stick.

 

[r3pnit]

is Mike Wright coming back for playoffs or not? WTF pats dont tell you nothing, i doubt any player that really wants to be on the field would be out from a simple concussion this long

 

[ATippett56]

Deaderick may not be on the keeper list for 2011

After today's news, that just may be the case.

 

[Fencer]

I'm also surprised by how much love Nincovich gets around here. He's been a decent stop-gap at OLB for us, but as far as I can tell, his biggest asset at this point is his coachability -- every week, the defense gets the new gameplan, and he executes it to a T, and in BB's defense, that goes a long way. The problem is, even when he puts himself in the right place at the right time, he doesn't win the one-on-one match-ups he needs to -- he's not a quick-shed guy, he gets sealed off by tight ends too easily, and he gets punked trying to tackle in space too often.

Well, one place that winds up being is in the general vicinity of the opposing quarterback, and that's a good thing.

The Vrabel comparisons are pretty apt when it comes to big plays -- he makes a bunch of them without the obvious athletic gifts to help him do so. Where he falls short of Vrabel is on the littler plays ... I think. Well, that and the awesome locker room personality. And the TE skills ...