So who in the Front 7 is a keeper for next season?

[Timbo717]

After a few obvious guys who are locks like Vince, Mayo and a couple others mentioned, I think there are a lot of variables that will play in that aren't finalized yet. Namely the labor situation as well as who is available in the draft. Until those are finalized it's hard to judge who has a good chance of making it.

 

[mgteich]

Every year posters think that Belichick will draft a couple of pass-rushing OLB's. I CANNOT see Belichick expecting to depend on two rookies as half of our OLB corp in 2011 or any year.

That being said, Banta-Cain or Moore could certainly be upgraded. I expect that we will keep at least one of them plus a draftee.

BOTTOM LINE
I expect us to keep at least three non-rookie OLB's. Personally, I think we have room for 5 OLB's since they also double as DE's. My preference used to be 15 front 7 guys, including a special teamer or to, but I have become convinced that 16 or 17 is better as long as we have 9 dependable defensive backs.

Outside Linebacker:

Cunningham, Jermaine
Ninkovich, Rob
2011 NFL Draft Pick
2011 NFL Draft Pick

 

[ATippett56]

Every year posters think that Belichick will draft a couple of pass-rushing OLB's. I CANNOT see Belichick expecting to depend on two rookies as half of our OLB corp in 2011 or any year.

Meanwhile, the New England Patriots amended three rookie linebackers to the 2010 roster:

Cunningham
Spikes
Fletcher

Potential 2011 Defensive Roster Breakdown (26 Total)

7 Defensive Lineman
4 Inside Linebackers
4 Outside Linebackers
1 Special Teams Linebacker (White)
5 Cornerbacks
4 Safeties
1 Special Teams Defensive Back (Slater)

That being said, Banta-Cain or Moore could certainly be upgraded. I expect that we will keep at least one of them plus a draftee.

Can't imagine the Pittsburgh Steelers allowing LaMarr Woodley to depart via free agency.

 

[mgteich]

A) I was discussubg OLB's. In any case, I agree that there is room for a rookie OLB or even two. I don't want to depend on two rookie OLB's. With regard to 2010, we already had 2 starting quality ILB's. We brought in 2 backups and did well when Spikes was able to get so many reps. OLB is a very difficult position. Cunningham has been a great success, but he has had to be weased in to the defense. I believe that we need three vets.

B) With regard to your roster count, I look at ther defensive backs a bit differently. You have 10 including Slater.

I have 9 and consider Slater on the offense. I don't want him playing defense. As Belichick, I would rather keep an extra linebacker on the field than Slater. The result is the same though. Also, I don't much care whether the 9th defensive back is a corner or a safety. In any case, he had to be able to play dime back if needed. Since all our safeties can do this, there is no issue.

C) My BOTTOM line with regard to your count is that I would consider giving the 26 defensive spot to a 5th OLB, especially a developmental one. That would leave the offense with 24 including Slater.
QB 2
RB 4
WR 5
TE 3
OL 9
ST 1 (Slater)

Meanwhile, the New England Patriots amended three rookie linebackers to the 2010 roster:

Cunningham
Spikes
Fletcher

Potential 2011 Defensive Roster Breakdown (26 Total)

7 Defensive Lineman
4 Inside Linebackers
4 Outside Linebackers
1 Special Teams Linebacker (White)
5 Cornerbacks
4 Safeties
1 Special Teams Defensive Back (Slater)

Can't imagine the Pittsburgh Steelers allowing LaMarr Woodley to depart via free agency.

 

[ATippett56]

A) I was discussubg OLB's. In any case, I agree that there is room for a rookie OLB or even two. I don't want to depend on two rookie OLB's. With regard to 2010, we already had 2 starting quality ILB's. We brought in 2 backups and did well when Spikes was able to get so many reps. OLB is a very difficult position. Cunningham has been a great success, but he has had to be weased in to the defense. I believe that we need three vets.

I visualize that Ninkovich and Cunningham would start next season with two rookie backups, unless the New England Patriots draft a stud. The aforementioned scenario would be similar to Spikes and Fletcher this season at the inside linebacker position. Also, need to take into account the salary cap next year, as well. Rookies are cheaper than veterans.

B) With regard to your roster count, I look at ther defensive backs a bit differently. You have 10 including Slater.

I have 9 and consider Slater on the offense. I don't want him playing defense. As Belichick, I would rather keep an extra linebacker on the field than Slater. The result is the same though. Also, I don't much care whether the 9th defensive back is a corner or a safety. In any case, he had to be able to play dime back if needed. Since all our safeties can do this, there is no issue.

Therefore only 23 players allotted to the offense next season.

C) My BOTTOM line with regard to your count is that I would consider giving the 26 defensive spot to a 5th OLB, especially a developmental one. That would leave the offense with 24 including Slater.
QB 2
RB 4
WR 5
TE 3
OL 9
ST 1 (Slater)

23 Players on Offense, 26 Players on Defense, 1 Punter, 1 Place Kicker, 1 Long Snapper, 1 Matt Slater (a special teamer without a true position on the field) for a total of 53 players on the roster.

 

[DaBruinz]

Every year posters think that Belichick will draft a couple of pass-rushing OLB's. I CANNOT see Belichick expecting to depend on two rookies as half of our OLB corp in 2011 or any year.

That being said, Banta-Cain or Moore could certainly be upgraded. I expect that we will keep at least one of them plus a draftee.

BOTTOM LINE
I expect us to keep at least three non-rookie OLB's. Personally, I think we have room for 5 OLB's since they also double as DE's. My preference used to be 15 front 7 guys, including a special teamer or to, but I have become convinced that 16 or 17 is better as long as we have 9 dependable defensive backs.

Every year you exaggerate what people say to the point of foolishness.. What you "CANNOT see" doesn't matter. Each year, Belichick seems to break another stereotype about the types of players he adds.. Look at this year. Adding Spikes and Cunningham. Both have been very important pieces in this young defense. Look how many rookies they had starting this year on defense during several games.. 3 or 4..

 

[DaBruinz]

I don't disagree that OLB is important, but TBC and EM have proven to be productive players in this system (jury is still out on Moore but hes done well thus far). Besides OLBs in this defense play till their mid 30s.

I'm not convinced either Warren is with the team next year either. GW is a FA and the Pats still owe Ty another $18m.

Gerard Warren is signed through the 2011 season.

Ty Warren has 3 years remaining on his contract. His SALARIES for those 3 years are 3.1M, 3.25M and 3.9M.

http://patscap.com/warren.gif

 

[RobertWeathers]

Gerard Warren is signed through the 2011 season.

Ty Warren has 3 years remaining on his contract. His SALARIES for those 3 years are 3.1M, 3.25M and 3.9M.

Not sure where you got your information, but it's completely and utterly wrong.

http://patscap.com/warren.gif

He is affordable salary wise, but Tys cap hit is $18m+ for next 3 years.

You are wrong. Gerard Warren is a one year deal.
Gerard Warren: 1-year deal - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

 

[DaBruinz]

Eric Moore is not a true 3-4 outside linebacker.

Haven't really be paying attention to the games much, have you? Moore actually has been playing both DE and OLB for the Pats.. He lines up at DE (3 point stance) in the Nickle with his hand down and, the times he's been on the field as an OLB, he's been in a two point stance. He's done both.

That, by definition, is what the Pats have always looked for in their OLBs..

Also, Moore will probably be a back-up for this team behind Cunningham and Ninkovich. Who should be the two clear starters next year unless a draft pick comes in and really wows them..

 

[DaBruinz]

Yep. I misspoke. They owe him $10.2m over the next three years which is very manageable.

His cap numbers over the next three years are in the $5.5m to $5.9m which are a bit high. Who knows.

You think that 5.5 to 5.9 is a bit high??? Take a look at the FRANCHISE number for a DE.. Ty Warren is a bargain at those rates..

 

[RobertWeathers]

You think that 5.5 to 5.9 is a bit high??? Take a look at the FRANCHISE number for a DE.. Ty Warren is a bargain at those rates..

You and I have been though this before.

In 2006, Ty Warren was a franchise DE/DT. He deserved the cash the team gave him.

In my opinion, he is not worth a $5.5 to $5.9 cap hit anymore.

Moving on.

 

[ATippett56]

Haven't really be paying attention to the games much, have you? Moore actually has been playing both DE and OLB for the Pats.. He lines up at DE (3 point stance) in the Nickle with his hand down and, the times he's been on the field as an OLB, he's been in a two point stance. He's done both.

That, by definition, is what the Pats have always looked for in their OLBs..

Also, Moore will probably be a back-up for this team behind Cunningham and Ninkovich. Who should be the two clear starters next year unless a draft pick comes in and really wows them..

What a meant by true 3-4 outside linebacker is a three down linebacker who has the ability to set the edge, rush the passer, and play coverage. I have seen Moore play alot more defensive end in a three point stance than two point stance as a pure 3-4 outside linebacker. Regardless, I am hoping the New England Patriots draft a potential 3-4 outside linebacker to be the long term solution at the position.

 

[DaBruinz]

He is affordable salary wise, but Tys cap hit is $18m+ for next 3 years.

You are wrong. Gerard Warren is a one year deal.
Gerard Warren: 1-year deal - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Actually, Ty Warren's cap hit is LESS than 18million over the next 3 years unless 5.878 + 5.965+5.444 is new math that = 18. See, last I looked, it took three 6s to equal 18... Warren's numbers total than just over 17.25 million.

As for G. Warren, I stand corrected. But it's also minor compared to your blathering.,

 

[DaBruinz]

What a meant by true 3-4 outside linebacker is a three down linebacker who has the ability to set the edge, rush the passer, and play coverage. I have seen Moore play alot more defensive end in a three point stance than two point stance as a pure 3-4 outside linebacker. Regardless, I am hoping the New England Patriots draft a potential 3-4 outside linebacker to be the long term solution at the position.

No such thing as a "true 3 down OLB" with this defense because of the sub-packages. And they play the Nickle quite a bit.. I believe last year it was something like 40% of the time.. Not sure what this year is, but I would imagine it was similar... The Pats used many different Nickel packages this year, including the "Big Nickel" with 3 safeties.

Moore played DE more in the 1st two games, but not as much in the last 2..

 

[DaBruinz]

You and I have been though this before.

In 2006, Ty Warren was a franchise DE/DT. He deserved the cash the team gave him.

In my opinion, he is not worth a $5.5 to $5.9 cap hit anymore.

Moving on.

In other words, You don't think anyone should be allowed to comment on your opinion and that you are to stubborn to keep an open mind. Got it. Do us all a favor and don't post if you are gonna be like that.

BTW, Ty Warren is still the best DE this team has. Maybe you should get your head out of the sand and realize that a 5.9 million cap hit is nothing for a top 10 3-4 DE in this league.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Actually, Ty Warren's cap hit is LESS than 18million over the next 3 years unless 5.878 + 5.965+5.444 is new math that = 18. See, last I looked, it took three 6s to equal 18... Warren's numbers total than just over 17.25 million.

Now you are being smarmy. Just like you are to every other poster on this thread.

As for G. Warren, I stand corrected. But it's also minor compared to your blathering.,

I'm blathering b/c you disagree with my opinion? Nice board etiquette. Put me on your ignore list then.

 

[RobertWeathers]

In other words, You don't think anyone should be allowed to comment on your opinion and that you are to stubborn to keep an open mind. Got it. Do us all a favor and don't post if you are gonna be like that.

BTW, Ty Warren is still the best DE this team has. Maybe you should get your head out of the sand and realize that a 5.9 million cap hit is nothing for a top 10 3-4 DE in this league.

No. You and I debated heavily on Ty Warren in another thread so I didn't see the need to engage with you further but if you want to debate with me further on it, so be it but I think it's waste of time debating it with you again as we disagree.

Let pick it up from this point. I think Ty is a fine player. You think Warren is a franchise 3-4 DE. I don't.

You think his contributions to the defense is worth $17.25 mil of cap hit over the next 3 years which at the start of his deal's final year will make him 32. I don't.

 

[Deus Irae]

No. You and I debated heavily on Ty Warren in another thread so I didn't see the need to engage with you further but if you want to debate with me further on it, so be it but I think it's waste of time debating it with you again as we disagree.

Let pick it up from this point. I think Ty is a fine player. You think Warren is a franchise 3-4 DE. I don't.

You think his contributions to the defense is worth $17.25 mil of cap hit over the next 3 years which at the start of his deal's final year will make him 32. I don't.

Unless a cap hit is 1:1 with dollars spent that season, it's meaningless when discussing player value, because you're adding dead money to the actual hit.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Unless a cap hit is 1:1 with dollars spent that season, it's meaningless when discussing player value, because you're adding dead money to the actual hit.

Perhaps but not if you want the remaining years off the books and don't want to pay a player X if you don't think he will be worth it.

 

[Deus Irae]

Perhaps but not if you want the remaining years off the books and don't want to pay a player X if you don't think he will be worth it.

But that's about actual payout, and the cap his is irrelevant. Your argument is not whether a player is worth "salary + hit", because "hit" is there whether or not the player is retained. That leaves you arguing only "salary".