So the Patriots were interested in Bengals DE Michael Johnson

[SONS_OF_BELICHICK]

Didnt Vollmer play alot of left tackle his first year ? If so ....extremely valuable protecting TB back side....

 

[tonyto3690]

Would have loved Johnson. It's clear Belichick isn't satisfied with the results given he chased down Bryant and now targeted Johnson.

I'm not sure where his draft stock is now, but I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on Cornelius Carradine out of florida. His draft stock dropped from top 20 to 3rd or 4th round last I checked because of an ACL injury. Has ideal size, good athleticism, quick feet and agility and speed, and is a good pass rusher inspite of being incredibly raw.

I'd rather spend money on DT than DE and this is a guy we could get as a first round talent in the 3rd or 4th round and either he booms into a starter across from Chandler or he's just a good situational pass rusher to use.

 

[PATS68]

It looks like the moron filters have again been removed from the new members vetting process.

Come on Ian, sort it out!

As for Captain Spammer up there, Sciz had it right - they took Vollmer instead of Johnson. What's your point?

Saying that, I do disagree with Sciz about Cliff Avril. He's a terrific all round player.

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Would u agree with me that they have won Super Bowls with Ashworth and Robinson Randell playing RT? Would u also agree with me that Pats have an o line coach who can coach up the position? Would u also agree with me that pass rush has been a major problem for this team and they really have no replaced Willie? So we have evidence that it can be basically played by a jag? Vollmer is a good player but I would have taken the pass rusher instead where the Pats r weak.

With that being said, I think they are going to let Vollmer walk based on the fact that yes they have won with a jag and they are not going to pay that type of money to a RT. Also if they were going to sign Johnson wouldn't that kind of admitting that they made a mistake or did not address the needed when there has been an ongoing need? I would also think that they would have had to pay Johnson a pretty penny to sign.

Also have been coming to this web site for years just never really posted until now. Sorry just not trying to have 10,000 posts next to my name and if I did I think I would need professional help. Used to be a member on the KFFL site before this site.

 

[Deus Irae]

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Would u agree with me that they have won Super Bowls with Ashworth and Robinson Randell playing RT? Would u also agree with me that Pats have an o line coach who can coach up the position? Would u also agree with me that pass rush has been a major problem for this team and they really have no replaced Willie? So we have evidence that it can be basically played by a jag? Vollmer is a good player but I would have taken the pass rusher instead where the Pats r weak.

With that being said, I think they are going to let Vollmer walk based on the fact that yes they have won with a jag and they are not going to pay that type of money to a RT. Also if they were going to sign Johnson wouldn't that kind of admitting that they made a mistake or did address the needed when there has been an ongoing need? I would also think that they would have had to pay Johnson a pretty penny to sign.

Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl. Sometimes, just because you think you can do something doesn't mean it's to be done.

 

[PATS68]

Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl. Sometimes, just because you think you can do something doesn't mean it's to be done.

No your missing the point! So there has been an ongoing need for a pass rusher correct? So the need has been there along but time and time again it had been neglected. Johnson was above ave. college football player that you had a chance of drafting, but they passed and again failed to fill the need.

Now they are going to pay top dollar because Johnson has produced and you could have had it all along.

Like some of the kool aid drinkers on here were trying to make the argument that Brandon Tate would be a better player in the NFL than his college team mate. Cunningham was going to be a better player than Dunlap didn't happen. McCourtey was on pace to be a better player than Revis.

Lets use another example in Dowling. The guy has been hurt since high school and can't stay on the field. There was a guy in Brook Reed that was sitting there and filled a much bigger need on this team.

 

[Deus Irae]

No your missing the point! So there has been an ongoing need for a pass rusher correct? So the need has been there along but time and time again it had been neglected. Johnson was above ave. college football player that you had a chance of drafting, but they passed and again failed to fill the need.

Now they are going to pay top dollar because Johnson has produced and you could have had it all along.

I'm not missing the point at all. The team had more than one need.

Like some of the kool aid drinkers on here were trying to make the argument that Brandon Tate would be a better player in the NFL than his college team mate. Cunningham was going to be a better player than Dunlap didn't happen. McCourtey was on pace to be a better player than Revis.

You'll have to take this stuff up with those people, since I wasn't one of them. However, you're making a bit of a false equation here. Failed choices doesn't equal no choices, after all. You're trying to say that failing in an attempt to address a problem is the same as ignoring a problem, when it's not.

Lets use another example in Dowling. The guy has been hurt since high school and can't stay on the field. There was a guy in Brook Reed that was sitting there and filled a much bigger need on this team.

Since the end of 2007, there has, arguably, been no bigger need for this team than DB help. That was still the case when Dowling was drafted. Hell, it's still the case right now.

 

[PATS68]

The Pats LB's and pass rush were both getting old in Vrable, Teddy, and Willie, but time and time again they failed to address in the top few rounds. IE Ben Watson over Dansby. I think they went several years without drafting a LB in the top few rounds, but they set a NFL draft record for drafting TE's in consecutive years. See the problem there?

I would strongly disagree with you about after 2007, where was the pass rush? I watched Teddy time and time again say that the Pats should have drafted Brooks Reed because it filled a much bigger need. I know they went to the same college, but he was right.

Pats have used top picks on corner, (Devin M. Butler, Wheatley) but they had not on OLB or pass rusher. Also for a team that had played the 3-4 why would you not draft more LB's than you drafted TE's? Pats set a draft record with drafting TE's.

 

[Deus Irae]

The Pats LB's and pass rush were both getting old in Vrable, Teddy, and Willie, but time and time again they failed to address in the top few rounds. IE Ben Watson over Dansby. I think they went several years without drafting a LB in the top few rounds, but they set a NFL draft record for drafting TE's in consecutive years. See the problem there?

Yes.... The problem was that they chose a different route (veteran signings), but missed on most of those signings. Again, it's not an issue of not bothering to address a problem. It's a failure to successfully fix a problem, which is not the same thing.

I would strongly disagree with you about after 2007, where was the pass rush? I watched Teddy time and time again say that the Pats should have drafted Brooks Reed because it filled a much bigger need. I know they went to the same college, but he was right.

The Patriots were #2 in the NFL in sacks in 2007. The decline of the defense was happening even while the team was devoting most of its drafting resources to the defense. You're adding 1+1 and getting "zebra".

Pats have used top picks on corner, (Devin M. Butler, Wheatley) but they had not on OLB or pass rushing DE.

Again, the team had other needs. It's not as if the team was all set at 23 spots and just needed an OLB and a DE. They've failed in their efforts to fix the secondary, and they've failed in their efforts to find deep speed since Moss, too, for example.

 

[PATS68]

So Chad Brown and Montey B. were the answers to LB is what your saying?

Would you agree that we are having a football discussion and it is nothing personal?

 

[tonyto3690]

Complaining we haven't hit every single draft pick with all pros? Really?

Every team besides maybe the Packers and Texans in the past 5 years would trade their drafts with ours in a heart beat on the evaluation of sheer talent alone (ignoring franchise QBs).

The Patriots have had some misses, but the Patriots have also had way more hits than most teams.

Cunningham was a quality starter on a 14-2 team.
Watson was the starting TE on a 16-0 team.
Dowling just hasn't been able to stay on the field.


It's not like these guys have been all awful. What if Watson had panned out to what Belichick hoped (Gronkowski before Gronkowski)? See the thing is the complaining isn't about the picks, it's complaining that Belichick isn't infallible and doesn't hit HOFers on every pick.


As for the issue with drafting need. Here's a hypothetical to explain how Belichick views things.

You have a third round pick. You have a CB graded as a first round talent. You need a DE but all of the ones available you grade as 6th rounders or busts. Do you take a DE you think is going to bust just because it's a need?

No, of course not, you go by your grades and draft the best talent available or trade back.

This is exactly what Belichick does. He doesn't give a rats ass about how people perceive players. He only cares about how he thinks a player will perform and drafts them accordingly. If no one is available at a good value spot he doesn't sit and take a pick just for the sake of taking a pick. He trades back or to the future instead of wasting a pick and playing the "lets throw a dart and hope it hits something" game.

 

[Deus Irae]

So Chad Brown and Montey B. were the answers to LB is what your saying?

No, I'm saying that they weren't the answers, but they were attempts to solve the problem. You are equating failed attempts with no attempts, and that's not a fair analysis/evaluation. I've had issues with things the team has done, and I've certainly not hesitated to post about them, but the failures haven't been for lack of effort. They've been from lack of proper evaluations, and no team is going to score 100% on that.

Would you agree that we are having a football discussion and it is nothing personal?

I would, indeed.