Smith-Schuster's Future - Is he N'Keal Harry?

[Ian]

so your beef is he should have cut him that day over confusion on one play and the fact that all he did was limit him to bring a blocker, last man on the bench and barely ever see the ball then cut him the next year was done because he wanted to convince people he wasn’t wrong? Come on.

You act as though there wasn't an issue (or additional issues) leading up to that play. And, did the film I pointed out of him not getting off the line off the snap also not mean anything?

Again, it's pretty well-documented that Bill obviously defended the kid, and good on him, as no one here can honestly look back and ever think Harry wasn't given every opportunity to succeed. Definitely can't say he wasn't given enough chances. And the results since he's left have clearly proven he's been a letdown.

Honestly, I don't know how you're not more down on him, especially considering Belichick put himself out there for this kid, and he didn't even have the decency to reward him for that confidence by working harder and not having moments like that one, among others.

 

[Ring 6]

You act as though there wasn't an issue (or additional issues) leading up to that play. And, did the film I pointed out of him not getting off the line off the snap also not mean anything?

Again, it's pretty well-documented that Bill obviously defended the kid, and good on him, as no one here can honestly look back and ever think Harry wasn't given every opportunity to succeed. Definitely can't say he wasn't given enough chances. And the results since he's left have clearly proven he's been a letdown.

Honestly, I don't know how you're not more down on him, especially considering Belichick put himself out there for this kid, and he didn't even have the decency to reward him for that confidence by working harder and not having moments like that one, among others.

He was last man off the bench and cut in 3 years.

Of course a coach publicly defends his player, belichick has done that with every player.

Why would you think “I’m not down on him”. My objection is this claim that Belichick tried to hide that it was mistake and kept playing him as if it were a fine pick. None of that happened.

 

[Patriot Missile]

I don't ever recall, in the 20+ years I've been doing this, watching a quarterback yelling at a receiver during a game in real-time for lining up wrong, not going in motion, and then being forced to throw the ball away.

Again, I don't fault Belichick for the pick. I saw Harry's college film, the idea certainly seemed good in theory based on how he played. He was a big strong guy who went up and fought for contested passes and looked pretty athletic. But by the time we were at that point, they were two years in, the guy hadn't played well, and then went so far as to try and blame his circumstances and demanded a trade. Yet, at that point in the season, he needed a rookie QB to tell him where to line up, and still didn't know the play. That should have been the moment he was - if nothing else - benched.

That's not a nit - that was pretty egregious. And I can't ever think of another time we've witnessed that. I think there might have been a moment with Ochocinco, but I can't think of another.

This also didn't help his cause:

A Frustrating Observation On N'Keal Harry

I wrote about this in an entry this morning, but he's a guy who just doesn't seem like he knows what he's doing. He's late off the ball on quite a few snaps, which I highlighted in a post this morning but figured it was worthy of sharing here. Take a look at these: It's just crazy...he's...

www.patsfans.com

Again, he swept out both Dalton Keene and Devin Asiasi after realizing he made a mistake. So it's not like he hasn't shown the ability to realize an error and quickly move on from draft picks who didn't work out. But as I mentioned, Harry, who I was supportive of for a long time, lost me at that moment, and the fact they didn't even sit him down was also surprising. Blocking ability or not. Seeing the other film in the link above in terms of how bad he was off the snap, also didn't help.

That’s about as concise as anyone could explain it without bashing the pick like everyone else does. At this point I’m not even sure there is even a point to argue about the player. They swung big and missed big on Harry. End of story and it remains a touchy subject because of who was available.

 

[turkeyneck]

Again, I don't fault Belichick for the pick. I saw Harry's college film, the idea certainly seemed good in theory based on how he played. He was a big strong guy who went up and fought for contested passes and looked pretty athletic. But by the time we were at that point, they were two years in, the guy hadn't played well, and then went so far as to try and blame his circumstances and demanded a trade. Yet, at that point in the season, he needed a rookie QB to tell him where to line up, and still didn't know the play. That should have been the moment he was - if nothing else - benched

I sure would like to see a recording of the chalk talk interview Harry had with Bill that so wowed him. I can't for the life of me imagine that a guy so thick could have demonstrated any of the football intelligence BB is so reputed to seek.

 

[Ian]

He was last man off the bench and cut in 3 years.

Of course a coach publicly defends his player, belichick has done that with every player.

Why would you think “I’m not down on him”. My objection is this claim that Belichick tried to hide that it was mistake and kept playing him as if it were a fine pick. None of that happened.

He didn't even bench Harry after that game. It wasn't until the Jacksonville game that he was a healthy scratch, and I forget even why that was.

The kid publicly demanded a trade that offseason. I get that Belichick didn't want to give it to him, so I understand why he started the year. But they benched Boutte for not getting his feet in bounds in Week 1 and he hasn't seen the field since. Why Belichick kept putting Harry out there after that game - and didn't immediately sit him after that play - remains a bizarre sequence of events that I still truly don't understand.

I get it, and this isn't me bashing Belichick. But I don't understand the loyalty to a player who didn't return the same level of effort to reward that support, especially after his offseason antics. You're treating him as though he was a player who tried really hard and it just didn't work out. That absolutely, with hindsight being much clearer, wasn't at all how it played out.

And that's unfortunate because he was also potentially the difference in 2019 turning out differently had he lived up to the expectations, and that likely could have changed the tenor of Brady's future here.

So there are a variety of reasons why he'll remain a topic of irritation for me...especially given how his final year played out here.

 

[Ring 6]

He didn't even bench Harry after that game. It wasn't until the Jacksonville game that he was a healthy scratch, and I forget even why that was.

The kid publicly demanded a trade that offseason. I get that Belichick didn't want to give it to him, so I understand why he started the year. But they benched Boutte for not getting his feet in bounds in Week 1 and he hasn't seen the field since. Why Belichick kept putting Harry out there after that game - and didn't immediately sit him after that play - remains a bizarre sequence of events that I still truly don't understand.

I get it, and this isn't me bashing Belichick. But I don't understand the loyalty to a player who didn't return the same level of effort to reward that support, especially after his offseason antics. You're treating him as though he was a player who tried really hard and it just didn't work out. That absolutely, with hindsight being much clearer, wasn't at all how it played out.

And that's unfortunate because he was also potentially the difference in 2019 turning out differently had he lived up to the expectations, and that likely could have changed the tenor of Brady's future here.

So there are a variety of reasons why he'll remain a topic of irritation for me...especially given how his final year played out here.

It’s surprising up me to see some of this coming from you.
First of all Boutte was only active because Parker was out. So to build an argument around a perceived reason he was “benched” when he was only active because of injury is a major stretch.
After that game aside from 2 games where he okayed more due to injuries he got 8 targets in 9 games. He was pretty much and extra OL.
what were you looking for a public flogging?
He asked for a trade because he knew he would not play here. You act as if that was the reason he was cut.

Also as far as the single okay you think should have caused him to be cut in the spot, we don’t know what happened. If what jones instructed him to do was right the play makes no sense. It’s equally likely that jones screwed up, but we didn’t know that answer.

My point here is you are creating a character flaw in Belichick for whatever reason is motivating you, that he makes personnel decisions based up trying to hide a poor decision and puts his image ahead of winning because he cares that anonymous people criticize draft picks and he would rather have the guy suck and hurt the team than cut him because everyone would suddenly figure out it was a bad pick. It’s just a bizarre take that you are really digging your heels in on.

How about we judge players and coaches by what they do rather than trying to create what you think they think in order to trash them?

 

[Ian]

That’s about as concise as anyone could explain it without bashing the pick like everyone else does. At this point I’m not even sure there is even a point to argue about the player. They swung big and missed big on Harry. End of story and it remains a touchy subject because of who was available.

His film showed a different player than they received and I do feel like a lot of it was due to effort, or lack there of. And people kill Aaron Dobson, not realizing he was actually a pretty good player who was trending upward before he suffered the foot injury, which ultimately did him in. Credit Dobson for putting in the effort and at least doing all the right things. He and Brady got off to a rough start, but I remember reading about Brady trying to help him along, and he did start developing until the injury.

They've been unlucky in that regard. Same with Malcolm Mitchell, who was a solid player who helped them win a Super Bowl. It's just too bad his career got cut short because he was a pretty good fit here. But both of those two were markedly different from Harry, who appeared from his college tape like he could have been a great addition but obviously wasn't. And I feel like part of that had more to do with his effort more so than any lack of athletic ability.

 

[Ian]

My point here is you are creating a character flaw in Belichick for whatever reason is motivating you, that he makes personnel decisions based up trying to hide a poor decision and puts his image ahead of winning because he cares that anonymous people criticize draft picks and he would rather have the guy suck and hurt the team than cut him because everyone would suddenly figure out it was a bad pick. It’s just a bizarre take that you are really digging your heels in on.

Yes, I am digging my heels in because that one lasted longer than it should have. And again, Harry instigated a lot of it. I was a big defender of his until he made Belichick look bad for supporting him. And I remain surprised Belichick allowed that to go on as long as it did, especially since Harry was tying up a spot for a player who gave them nothing on offense aside from a run-blocker. That means teams not only didn't have to worry about him, but also likely knew they were running the ball if he was out there.

Yes, Belichick has had a habit of sticking with guys longer than he should have. That was absolutely well-documented with Harry, and I'm certainly not the first person to mention it.

As for Boutte, I'm aware he was out there in lieu of Parker but it feels like there may be a little more to it when it comes to why we haven't seen him since given their woes on offense. But the sequence of events, including the film of Harry not getting off the line on the snap (you haven't said anything about that...which is odd) just makes me wonder why it went on as long as it did.

We can agree to disagree. You appear to like the kid and don't see anything wrong with how everything turned out. I liked the kid, but all of that left me disappointed and I felt differently after that game, and after noticing the film of him getting off the ball.

I would have liked to have seen them move him at the deadline in 2021 and at least either acquired someone else who could have helped them or elevated someone else (Wilkerson) off the practice squad. Because he literally provided nothing offensively and it contributed to their issues that January, in addition to their deficiencies on defense.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, I am digging my heels in because that one lasted longer than it should have. And again, Harry instigated a lot of it. I was a big defender of his until he made Belichick look bad for supporting him. And I remain surprised Belichick allowed that to go on as long as it did, especially since Harry was tying up a spot for a player who gave them nothing on offense aside from a run-blocker. That means teams not only didn't have to worry about him, but also likely knew they were running the ball if he was out there.

Yes, Belichick has had a habit of sticking with guys longer than he should have. That was absolutely well-documented with Harry, and I'm certainly not the first person to mention it.

As for Boutte, I'm aware he was out there in lieu of Parker. But the sequence of events, including the film of Harry not getting off the line on the snap (you haven't said anything about that...which is odd) just makes me wonder why it went on as long as it did.

We can agree to disagree. You appear to like the kid and don't see anything wrong with how everything turned out. I liked the kid, but all of that left me disappointed and I felt differently after that game, and after noticing the film of him getting off the ball.

I would have liked to have seen them move him at the deadline in 2021 and at least either acquired someone else who could have helped them or elevated someone else (Wilkerson) off the practice squad. Because he literally provided nothing offensively and it contributed to their issues that January, in addition to their deficiencies on defense.

Now you are being disingenuous so perhaps we should stop before this gets worse.
There is nothing I have said that can any way be interpreted as I “like the kid”
I have been painstakingly clear that my comments are in response to you inaccurately ascribing a character flaw to belichick that is not at all supporter, and in fact the truth bears out the opposite of that.
If you want to deflect from that by putting ludicrous words in my mouth like that instead of disputing your conclusion jumping position, “I like the kid” why bother having a conversation?

 

[Ian]

Now you are being disingenuous so perhaps we should stop before this gets worse.
There is nothing I have said that can any way be interpreted as I “like the kid”
I have been painstakingly clear that my comments are in response to you inaccurately ascribing a character flaw to belichick that is not at all supporter, and in fact the truth bears out the opposite of that.
If you want to deflect from that by putting ludicrous words in my mouth like that instead of disputing your conclusion jumping position, “I like the kid” why bother having a conversation?

LOL, I didn't use any emoticons either throughout my previous several rants, so this isn't meant to be as snarky as it appears. However, yes, Belichick does have a character flaw when it comes to parting with players too late as opposed to too early. Again, I'm not the first person to feel that way. Harry just remains the one who irritates me and sticks out.

I don't fall under the camp of Belichick stinks and needs to go. The six championships and 20+ years of greatness are absolutely something I take into consideration, and it should absolutely give him a much higher level of leniency. Not that my opinion matters.

At the same time, I'm also willing to admit that he's not perfect, and some of the areas where he's flawed have also held him back and are certainly impeding him now. Smith-Schuster may ultimately be another one of those players, and the point of the OP is that I'm hoping if that continues to be the case, unlike Harry, Belichick will take a player who isn't helping the team and replace him with someone who will sooner than later.

 

[Ring 6]

LOL, I didn't use any emoticons either throughout my previous several rants, so this isn't meant to be as snarky as it appears. However, yes, Belichick does have a character flaw when it comes to parting with players too late as opposed to too early. Again, I'm not the first person to feel that way. Harry just remains the one who irritates me and sticks out.

I don't fall under the camp of Belichick stinks and needs to go. The six championships and 20+ years of greatness are absolutely something I take into consideration, and it should absolutely give him a much higher level of leniency. Not that my opinion matters.

At the same time, I'm also willing to admit that he's not perfect, and some of the areas where he's flawed have also held him back and are certainly impeding him now. Smith-Schuster may ultimately be another one of those players, and the point of the OP is that I'm hoping if that continues to be the case, unlike Harry, Belichick will take a player who isn't helping the team and replace him with someone who will sooner than later.

Belichick is famous for “one year too soon is better than one year too late”. So other than your perception that he should give up on a guy he felt worthy of a 1 before the end of his 3rd year, who else are you not the first person to note this about?
This conversation isn’t about what you feel about belichick, that’s just subterfuge.

It’s about you claim that he had a character flaw that he hurts his team because he’s afraid for people to think he knows a pick was bad.
By all means give all of those other examples.
Perhaps you could list the other emotionally stable coaches who care more about winning than your fabricated thought process that if I keep a crappy guy on my team all those anonymous people I’m afraid of might not notice and they won’t criticize my picks so I have to cry myself to step at night.
How do you explain the bear and Vikings keeping him on a roster without the debilitating fear of what people will think if he is cut?

And let’s also recognize this conversation started with an injured player 5 games into his contract, so maybe roll me up that list too, all the coaches with enough character to cut a SB winners #1 WR after 5 games the following season.

 

[Ian]

Belichick is famous for “one year too soon is better than one year too late”. So other than your perception that he should give up on a guy he felt worthy of a 1 before the end of his 3rd year, who else are you not the first person to note this about?
This conversation isn’t about what you feel about belichick, that’s just subterfuge.

It’s about you claim that he had a character flaw that he hurts his team because he’s afraid for people to think he knows a pick was bad.

No, if you go back and read the opening post, my concern would be whether or not he'll cut ties with a player who he may have gotten bad injury intel on sooner than later.

By all means give all of those other examples.
Perhaps you could list the other emotionally stable coaches who care more about winning than your fabricated thought process that if I keep a crappy guy on my team all those anonymous people I’m afraid of might not notice and they won’t criticize my picks so I have to cry myself to step at night.

Again, never said that. Go back and read my opening post.

How do you explain the bear and Vikings keeping him on a roster without the debilitating fear of what people will think if he is cut?

The Bears had nothing to lose. They got him for nothing.

And as I've said, my concern would be Smith-Schuster lingering on the roster into next year. Granted, there are 12 games to go and I'm assuming this situation is going to evolve and I'm curious to see how it goes.

But yes, Harry was someone they stuck with too long given the reasons he gave them - especially given Belichick patience/support - to move on from him. My hope is that it won't be the same with Smith-Schuster if he's unable to get healthy.

 

[Ring 6]

No, if you go back and read the opening post, my concern would be whether or not he'll cut ties with a player who he may have gotten bad injury intel on sooner than later.

why?

Again, never said that. Go back and read my opening post.


The Bears had nothing to lose. They got him for nothing.

That’s irrelevant. What did the patriots have to lose? You wanted them to cut him mid season rather than benching him and cutting him in the off season. What did the patriots have to lose?

And as I've said, my concern would be Smith-Schuster lingering on the roster into next year. Granted, there are 12 games to go and I'm assuming this situation is going to evolve and I'm curious to see how it goes.

If he gets healthy he belongs.

But yes, Harry was someone they stuck with too long given the reasons he gave them - especially given Belichick patience/support - to move on from him. My hope is that it won't be the same with Smith-Schuster if he's unable to get healthy.

So you don’t have any other examples?

 

[Ian]

why?

Because if he's not able to play at the level they expected when they signed him, obviously, it makes sense to move on.

That’s irrelevant. What did the patriots have to lose? You wanted them to cut him mid season rather than benching him and cutting him in the off season. What did the patriots have to lose?

I'm fully aware that I'm a little weird and that the topic of Harry bothers me. If you're fine with how the entire process played out, that's obviously fine. Never said you were wrong. Just said I didn't like how Harry abused Belichick's support and the moments I highlighted are why I felt he should have been gone sooner.

If he gets healthy he belongs.

This one is tough. Prior to the concussion, he hasn't been listed on the injury report - a point you've argued when it's come to other players in similar circumstances - so in theory, he's healthy, yet not playing at the right level. It's possible a trip to IR and a full offseason could change that, but we're sort of left in the dark there because everyone continues to say he's healthy.

So you don’t have any other examples?

I could, but then it would extend the discussion, and it's Harry (and I guess Smith-Schuster) - not Belichick - I'm ultimately annoyed with.

 

[Ring 6]

Because if he's not able to play at the level they expected when they signed him, obviously, it makes sense to move on.

Why are you questioning whether Belichick would do that. It opens up the implication, which is what I am arguing against here, that he operates based upon what other people think and places more value on covering up mistakes than winning. Which is not only ludicrous but also isn’t sensible. Why would you keep your mistake around?

I'm fully aware that I'm a little weird and that the topic of Harry bothers me. If you're fine with how the entire process played out, that's obviously fine. Never said you were wrong. Just said I didn't like how Harry abused Belichick's support and the moments I highlighted are why I felt he should have been gone sooner.

I am saying I see nothing wrong much less conspiratorial in how belichick handle Harry.

This one is tough. Prior to the concussion, he hasn't been listed on the injury report - a point you've argued when it's come to other players in similar circumstances - so in theory, he's healthy, yet not playing at the right level. It's possible a trip to IR and a full offseason could change that, but we're sort of left in the dark there because everyone continues to say he's healthy.

Well you saw the rest of his career including being a #1 on the SB champ. Clearly he can play, and he had knee surgery. I would assume he needs to fully recover before I assumed he just stopped being able to play football.

I could, but then it would extend the discussion, and it's Harry (and I guess Smith-Schuster) - not Belichick - I'm ultimately annoyed with.

But that’s exactly the point. I don’t care about Harry, it’s over and done.
My reason to respond to you has been to call out that you used Harry and smith to create this conspiracy theory that belichick doesn’t care about winning and has a fragile ego that is his primary motivation and because of that hd decided to keep playing a player he shouldn’t, which both is absurd and not accurate.

 

[203Pat]

Boutte may not be around long.

 

[Ian]

But that’s exactly the point. I don’t care about Harry, it’s over and done.
My reason to respond to you has been to call out that you used Harry and smith to create this conspiracy theory that belichick doesn’t care about winning and has a fragile ego that is his primary motivation and because of that hd decided to keep playing a player he shouldn’t, which both is absurd and not accurate.

I've already explained it, and I'll defer to my opening post and other previous responses. Had nothing to do with a conspiracy theory, which I agree, is both absurd and not accurate. It instead had to do with my concern about keeping a player who can't help the team longer than necessary.

 

[Brewskies]

No JuJu has been successful in the past. Harry was a failure in the NFL.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Perhaps JuJu is out of Ju Juice?