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Run and Shoot - are Pats at their best with empty backfield?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Double TE, Sep 21, 2012.

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  1. Double TE

    Double TE The Best in the World PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Is it me or are the Pats at their best when they go empty backfield old style run and shoot offense and allow Brady to sling it. I think slowing the game down and using more standard formations actually plays into the opponent's strategy. I mean if I am the D coordinator I'd much rather see Ridley or Woodhead get the ball on say 3rd and three rather than seeing Brady drop back and throw to his plethora of weapons.

    I realize that it gets tighter in the playoffs and of course you have to mix in runs but why not just let Brady sling it? Its worked well for 10 years. Those 3rd down Woodhead runs were annoying.

    Thoughts?

    :confused:
  2. RelocatedPatFan

    RelocatedPatFan Rookie

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    At the end of the day, Balance between passing and rushing is the best case scenario. When teams get 1 dimensional, they can be planned for. Plus, our O line isn't up to the task of pass blocking on a continual basis (well not yet).

    The run, will keep the defenses honest and lead to bigger plays for the offense in general.
  3. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The game plan should be 60/40 pass to run ratio on a weekly basis.
  4. Gronkandez

    Gronkandez Rookie

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    Yeah it works a lot of the time, however the O-Line is still a work in progress and Brady is getting older. Using the Run and Shoot is asking for Brady to get teed off on.
    An effective run game also helps the defense rest. This is especially important for the D-Lineman like Wilfolk and Jones who play virtually every down.
  5. Double TE

    Double TE The Best in the World PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Can't they use screens and passes to Welker to basically duplicate the running game? Going no huddle / run and shoot keeps the D on the field and tires them out too. IDK its worked for 10 years and suddenly NE is reinventing itself?

    Vs. AZ when they had to pass they were successful. Maybe when Vereen returns they'll do more of that?
  6. letekro

    letekro Rookie

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    This works against crappy teams, but against the iron of the league it has proved to be unsuccessful. Eventually, we will have to be able to make the Giants, Ravens, 49ers, etc. pay for flooding the field with DBs.
  7. JJDChE

    JJDChE Rookie

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    Yup, it doesn't work against teams that can get to Brady without blitzing.
  8. DocHoliday

    DocHoliday Rookie

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    Teams finally have 5-6 capable DBs due to the evolution of passing in football in general.

    Remember - it always pays to be ahead of the curve!
  9. livinginthe past

    livinginthe past Rookie

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  10. BSR

    BSR Rookie

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    What do you mean best? If you mean racking up fantasy points, then yes. If you mean championships, then no. When the Patriots were at their best winning championships they were a balanced team and Brady spread the ball around.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2012
  11. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    When the Pats are in an empty backfield offense all the time, people complain the Pats are too predictable and don't run the ball. When they try to have commitment to the run, people complain they don't spread the defense out and toss the ball all around the field.

    The Pats' new philosophy worked brilliantly the first week and not so much this past Sunday. I say they continue with this philosophy even if they have to mix it up a little more. Brady is a terrific play action QB. He can sell it better than any QB currently in the NFL. That will make up for the deficiencies on the offensive line and the loss of Hernandez. To do play action effectively and frequently, you have to commit to the run and be successful at it. If teams know you can't or won't run the ball, they will not bite on the play action. i think the struggles we have now with it will pay dividends in December and January.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2012
  12. Double TE

    Double TE The Best in the World PatsFans.com Supporter

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    cold real cold
  13. Double TE

    Double TE The Best in the World PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Got them to the SB? If Gronk were healthy we'd likely have won.
  14. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Belichick is trying his best to create an amoeba offense. He wants TEs and WRs that can block and run the whole route tree. That's part of the reason why it seems he is phasing out the "slot" receiver in this offense. It seems he feels its too one-dimensional. Hernandez can play slot. Hernandez can play outside. Hernandez can play inline. Hernandez can play in the backfield.

    So I firmly believe he's working towards that goal: an offense with such versatile skill players that they can line up in any personnel package and run any play in the playbook at any time. To a point.

    The missing piece is the RB that can do it all. We've seen Ridley run hard this year. Can he also run routes, make catches out of the backfield?

    The truth is that Shane Vereen is the guy that I'm betting they targeted as their amoeba RB. He's gotta get healthy, get on the field, and push Ridley for reps.
  15. JJDChE

    JJDChE Rookie

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    I think there'd be a better chance that we would have won if we activated Ridley and gave him the ball 15-20 times.
  16. Bonzo

    Bonzo Rookie

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    Someone else already mentioned it, but it seems the improved defensive performance is due, at least in part, to having won the TOP in both games. I for one would like to see this trend continue.
  17. Bonzo

    Bonzo Rookie

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    For all this chatter about transitioning to a 3WR offense in the immediate future, I'm wondering if we won't see more 2RB instead.
  18. BSR

    BSR Rookie

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    If we could have run the ball at the end of the game to burn the clock we would have most likely have won as well.

    The reality is this style of offense often falls flat in the playoffs. The best offenses are ones that do many things well and aren't overly dependent on a few offensive weapons.
  19. Dragda

    Dragda Yes, it's really me... PatsFans.com Supporter

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    the run and shoot it a very specific formation with a RB in the backfield. I don't recall seeing us in that formation very often if at all.
  20. fumbrunner

    fumbrunner Rookie

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    When did the run and shoot NOT have running backs??

    Not sure about you, but I like that they use TEs. The traditional run and shoot does not use TEs much. D lines like the Giants would have a hayday. We don't really have the personnel at WR for this type of offense either.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2012
  21. UK_Pat37

    UK_Pat37 Rookie

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    the traditional run and shoot is almost dead. It still lives on a little in college...SMU and Hawaii being prime examples...but it's a rarity there now too. Its a 10 personnel with two true slots and two true splits. No TEs, no FB.

    The principles still exist and I think you can draw comparisons to it in our offence but it's not a pure 'shoot'. The pure shoot just doesn't bring enough power into the NFL game. You can't run very strongly out of it and you become too reliant on the pass. It's not designed for the pro game.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2012
  22. BananaRepublican

    BananaRepublican Banned

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    Why? Why would you not run on light sub packages if that's what they're showing? Why would you let their pass rushers potentially get in a rhythm instead of steam rolling them?

    I prefer to think of it as team and situation specific and I'd be surprised if Josh used some standard template like what you're suggesting. I mean if Brady is getting hammered you aren't going to stick to a 60-40 template I hope. That is like asking to cut his career short.

    And I am one that is questioning his pocket habits as they are seemingly affected by the pounding he's been taking. The guy is a human. He's going to start expecting pressure even when it's not there. That is a real concern because he will never be the same if he gets into habits like that.
  23. DocHoliday

    DocHoliday Rookie

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    Few things will destroy a good QB faster than what I like to call 'Pocket PTSD'. You see it a lot in college and high school when the poor QB is being thrown around by a dominant D-line.

    It's simply not natural to be slammed into the ground without preparing your body to absorb the blow. Eventually you'll stop paying attention to receivers and start worrying about your hide.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2012
  24. BananaRepublican

    BananaRepublican Banned

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    I thought it was quite interesting that the Ravens' first play on offense this year was a play action pass. And the defense bit.

    Now THAT is what you call being in their heads with the run. I guess it doesn't hurt to have Ray Rice running it, but you get my point. They scripted that play so they knew that the defense would be biting even on the first play from scrimmage. Amazing when you think about how different that is to what our offense does.

    Brady is going to decline, this we know. There is no way he's going to survive if we ask him to face all the pressure every Sunday. Ain't gonna work. So they know that and they have groomed three RBs to take over this job. I feel somewhat comfortable with the three personnel, but man they gotta get out there and play a lot more to know what we really have.
  25. doesntmatter1

    doesntmatter1 Rookie

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    I don't have many problems with our offense since what we do usually results in wins but there are little things that annoy me. I see almost every team throw back shoulders but that didn't really come in to place here until we got lloyd. I feel it should have been here b4 he was and same thing with our running game. We are now throwing in a few tosses to our running backs and they have worked but where were they for the last few years.

    But there is much more that seems to be missing from our playbook. Its been forever since i have seen a designed rollout. If ANY of our wideouts get single coverage I would like to see brady just throw it deep. I don't care if it gets intercepted(i'll think of it as a punt) but it will keep defenses on their toes and I would like our wideouts to be given a chance to just make a play.

    Running game seems to simple. I never see any stretch, misdirection, or hb offtackle plays. For years i feel like our backs never even want to bounce a play outside. I hate the way we use our fullbacks. Its always i formation and never any kind of change up or a pass to them. How about some fake fb handoff to a pitch to the running back. The fb dive sucks, we get like half a yard everytime. I really wanted fiametta to make this team. A true fb people forget to cover. We really need to steal some run plays from the cowboys and giants. They just look very different from ours.
  26. Reckedtrek

    Reckedtrek Rookie

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    More running = less throwing = Brady plays more years.
    More running = D's can't automatically tee off on Brady = Brady plays more years.
    More running = better TOP. D is rested and plays better as a result.

    Being able to run 90+% of your entire offensive playbook without making substitutions (with AH's return) while going no huddle at any point to maximize and take advantage of mismatches, means stepping on the throat of the opposing D = victory.
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