Reports: Brady wants entire suspension removed, and is seeking to be fully exonerated

[Ring 6]

By the way, the excellent deflategate summary article on the front page has this


Kraft thought goodell would act like an adult, he shot his mouth off about an apology and he made a fool of himself, no one's arguing that.


- See more at: http://www.patsfans.com/blogs/vampa...-we-get-to-this-point/8/#sthash.CR1IwBUe.dpuf

That is incorrect. Teams do have a right to appeal, as evidenced by the fact that teams have appealed.

 

[Dr Pain]

Since he did nothing, he will have no problem turning over his phone if it is asked for.
It is also extremely debatable whether there is cause to ask for his phone in a civil trial.

Of course the other side will ask and Brady will ask for Goodell's, Kensils, Vincent's etc.... In fact Brady can sue Wells and his firm which I expect would happen as well as it was Wells who wrote the crap.

 

[Ring 6]

He did not admit guilt, he realized that his power to do anything was lost when they gave goodell dictatorial powers.

His actions are perceived to be an admission of guilt. There is no logical explanation for an innocent man refusing to appeal.

In 2007, they had no past history and technically, they did something a league memo had said not to do.

They did something that they interpreted as legal, because the league memo specified 'for use during that game'. You aren't doing something you were told not to if you have to remove a key part of the letter to say you violated it. Thats like saying a kid who can't drive after 9 should get a ticket for driving at noon because the rule says so if you ignore the qualifier.

He reasoned [and rightly, according to at least one of the recent articles condemning goodell and Wells] that isolating himself as one owner who did not have a union, or a legal process behind him, would be counter productive.

This is bunk. He reasoned that he needed to not challenge Goodell because it would set a bad precedent if an owner challenged the commissioner, so that players could then have more cause to challenge. He probably knew Goodell would have to rule in his favor, so the other owners told him he can't embarrass Goodell like that.
To say an innocent man exercising his right to appeal is counterproductive is just stupid. There is nothing the New England Patriots lose by appealing.

I have challenged multiple people to describe what he could do against a crazed commissioner with unlimited powers, and the best i've got is, he can cause a stink and cannot force a fair arbitration process.

No, you got many answers that you choose to ignore. Your red herring is that he has no chance, that is not a fact, just something you make up to defend Kraft.
He could very easily have challenged the Wells report and made a clear convincing argument that the findings were unjust. To say that doing that is silly because you hired a commissioner who has no integrity and will ignore the truth and lie to the world is moronic. But, saying you were correct about that, why wouldn't Kraft want it on the record, so he can use it to get rid of the man you claim has a hell-bent obsession on ruining Krafts franchise?
You act as if Goodell's life work is to screw Kraft, so Krafts smartest move is to sweep it under the carpet and wait until the next time he has to bend over.

So, losing, in the midst of a winning union grievance and possible lawsuit by Brady, is victory, with the other 31 owners gaining power to his detriment in keeping goodell, or choosing his successor.

This makes no sense. How is losing a 1st a 4th and $1,000,000 a victory? How is beinjg found guilty of something you didn't do, and having the reputation of your franchise falsely smeared and your legacy damaged forever a victory? How does letting Goodell screw you then COMPLEMENTING HIM in your pc get him out? How does not exposing what you think is a vendetta against you that would cause him to lie cheat and steal to hurt you help you get rid of him.
You are chugging the Kraft coolaid by the gallon, and ignoring everything that resembles fact.

I say it again, if goodell decided this was the punishment, besides losing loudly, what could Kraft have done about it?

Goodell decided this was the punishment based upon the Wells report, and the Wells report alone.
Kraft could have fought the Wells report. It IS that simple.

By your logic Brady should just take the 4 games because Goodell already decided, and won't listen to any evidence he brings in, even though he publicly encouraged it.

You do realize that Goodell will be held up to public scrutiny on how he judges the evidence Brady presents right? You do realize he will be held to public scrutiny about losing at trial, right?
Somehow you think "Wells missed some things and didn't do a very good job. We will look to a different investigator next time" is a greater crime than punishing the GOAT QB and one of your 32 teams for something you know they did not do.
That is simply bizarre.

 

[Ring 6]

Of course the other side will ask and Brady will ask for Goodell's, Kensils, Vincent's etc.... In fact Brady can sue Wells and his firm which I expect would happen as well as it was Wells who wrote the crap.

Well that's the point though. You can ask for a lot of things, but it doesn't mean you have a right to get them.
It is very debatable that the NFL could make an argument that would convince the court it had a right to look at Tom Brady's phone.
If it did you just set the precedent that in a union shop you can accuse someone of something there is no evidence of and then get their phone just because you heard his wife was hot and there were naked pictures of her on it.
There has to be a reasonable basis to demand evidence be turned over. The NFL is not the police who have investigative rights, and the ability to get warrants and subpoenas.

 

[Tony2046]

I think a lot of people are still confused and think things would immediately proceed to a de novo hearing on the facts of the case.

I'm one of those people. I love the math and science involved in this topic but I leave the legalities up to you guys.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

A few things...

First of all I love the AEI report but I don't understand, if Brady had any involvement with it, it would help to leak it before his appeal. Why warn Goodell of things to come? Wouldn't that just give Goodell more time to poke holes in the report whether they are factual or not or time to build a defense against it?

I think it was calculated when Goodell mentioned he is not married to the Well's report and welcomes more information to get things right (paraphrasing). I think this leaves the door open for Goodell to view the info Brady's team presents and be able to point to the Well's report as, indeed, being inconclusive and totally vacating any punishment for Brady.

I'm not saying this because I have rose-colored glasses on. I'm saying this because it seems this is the only way for Goodell and the NFL to save face and to prevent potentially scandalous details of the botched sting to come to light. To blame Wells and his report for misleading the NFL or simply for doing a poor job. To make Wells the fall guy.

If this is exactly what it seems to all of us here, a sting where the Brady and the ball boys did absolutely nothing wrong and there is proof of nefarious underlying actions by the NFL, how else could Goodell prevent this from becoming public knowledge if taken to court? One answer-blame Wells and vindicate Brady.

I do not think Goodell is an blubbering idiot. While I do think he is bad at his job, I do think he has the brain capacity, or people around him, who know the potential ramifications of this going to court.

As far as the fine against the Pats and the draft picks? I don't know. I've read people here saying no matter what the fine sticks and the draft picks are gone while others still hold hope of getting them back. If the matter plays out similarly to what I stated above, how can those penalties stay in tact?

I hope it plays out like I think it will but hell, I'm not Matlock, I just look like a young Paul Newman dressed as Matlock.

I agree with much of what you say.

I do, however, think that parties supportive of Brady had a hand in the publication of the AEI report. I think Goodell already had a pretty good idea of the "things to come" regarding the arguments that Brady and the NFLPA were going to make. The purpose of the report was to put pressure on him by publicly outing the farcical nature of the Wells materials in two highly respected venues and disavow Goodell and the League of any fantasies they might have had that, for Brady and the NFLPA, this was anything but a "fight to the finish." And that it was a fight they would likely win once it got to open court.

I also hope you're right about Goodell's potentially using Wells as a "fall guy," but I think that's highly unlikely since he would have to explain to a bunch of penny-pinching owners why he spent five million of their dollars on a piece of trash that is now being exposed as not worth the paper on which it is written.

To me the bottom line is that Goodell is trapped...or, rather, has trapped himself.

As far as I can see, his only choices are to undo the whole mess himself by exonerating Brady and rescinding the penalties to the Patriots or to allow a Court to order him to set aside the penalties to Brady and open the door for Kraft to come back and say that, in light of the Court's ruling, he's now asking that the penalties to the team be lifted (am I the only one who noticed that Kraft's statement in San Francisco ended with his saying that he was taking the actions he announced because it was the best course for him to follow "at this point in time?" If you reread his written statement, the sentence in which those words appear reads just fine without them. I still think he should not have dropped his right to appeal, but it's possible that he had a longer play in mind.)

In either case, Goodell is ****ed. The interesting thing will be whether he decides to throw Kensil and others to the wolves and see if he can escape with his job. But, those guys know where Goodell's bodies are buried, so I think he has to go down with the ship.

Thoughtful post. Only your eighth. Post more.

 

[raduray]

He did not admit guilt, he realized that his power to do anything was lost when they gave goodell dictatorial powers.

In 2007, they had no past history and technically, they did something a league memo had said not to do.

He reasoned [and rightly, according to at least one of the recent articles condemning goodell and Wells] that isolating himself as one owner who did not have a union, or a legal process behind him, would be counter productive.

I have challenged multiple people to describe what he could do against a crazed commissioner with unlimited powers, and the best i've got is, he can cause a stink and cannot force a fair arbitration process.

So, losing, in the midst of a winning union grievance and possible lawsuit by Brady, is victory, with the other 31 owners gaining power to his detriment in keeping goodell, or choosing his successor.

I say it again, if goodell decided this was the punishment, besides losing loudly, what could Kraft have done about it?

He could have pursued all the options remaining to him in order to make a point. Instead, he gave up with the appeal option still on the table and made another point.

 

[raduray]

How do you reach that conclusion, @raduray? You mean because Goodell would technically be the defendant in a civil case? I'm confused. I highly doubt Tom Brady sues for defamation of character.

You're right. That was my (probably incorrect) assumption.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Also last I knew you could access PatsFans.com from anywhere in the United States (unless of course your work has it blocked).

Thank god for smart phones! My work blocks everything under the sun.. even when you're researching legit things on google we constantly run into legit sites that are blocked

 

[Ring 6]

He could have pursued all the options remaining to him in order to make a point. Instead, he gave up with the appeal option still on the table and made another point.

And has not publicly uttered one word in support of Tom Brady since.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Since he did nothing, he will have no problem turning over his phone if it is asked for.
It is also extremely debatable whether there is cause to ask for his phone in a civil trial.

I certainly agree with your first statement.
As to your second, I think judges have a lot of discretion in these matters. If Brady and the NFLPA insist that League, Colts and Ravens officials turn over their phone and email records as part of Discovery, I could see a judge ruling that Brady should do the same. But, I honestly don't know.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

The Wells Report is a sinking ship. Goodell has to decide when and how to bail off, or else he will go down with it.

 

[Dr Pain]

Well that's the point though. You can ask for a lot of things, but it doesn't mean you have a right to get them.
It is very debatable that the NFL could make an argument that would convince the court it had a right to look at Tom Brady's phone.
If it did you just set the precedent that in a union shop you can accuse someone of something there is no evidence of and then get their phone just because you heard his wife was hot and there were naked pictures of her on it.
There has to be a reasonable basis to demand evidence be turned over. The NFL is not the police who have investigative rights, and the ability to get warrants and subpoenas.

I was referring to a civil trial for damages.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

I now argue with any critics of the science with a picture and two words:

EXPLAIN THIS:

edit: this one may be even better, since they will say that boiling water and ice are too crazy extremes

 

[Ring 6]

I certainly agree with your first statement.
As to your second, I think judges have a lot of discretion in these matters. If Brady and the NFLPA insist that League, Colts and Ravens officials turn over their phone and email records as part of Discovery, I could see a judge ruling that Brady should do the same. But, I honestly don't know.

Brady and the NFLPA can also request whatever they want, but it must be a legitimate request.
For example, calling Kensil to testify is of course allowed, but to have the court force him to turn over his phone would require a valid reason, which probably doesn't exist.
There is nothing that would compel the court to force Brady to turn over his phone just because Wells wanted to see it.

 

[Ring 6]

I was referring to a civil trial for damages.

There is still a burden of legitimacy of the request of someones personal property.

If you are talking about defamation of character based upon inplying guilt because he wouldn't turn over the phone, then it would be germaine, but the NFL cannot just get his phone because they say they want it.

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

He did not admit guilt, he realized that his power to do anything was lost when they gave goodell dictatorial powers.

In 2007, they had no past history and technically, they did something a league memo had said not to do.

He reasoned [and rightly, according to at least one of the recent articles condemning goodell and Wells] that isolating himself as one owner who did not have a union, or a legal process behind him, would be counter productive.

I have challenged multiple people to describe what he could do against a crazed commissioner with unlimited powers, and the best i've got is, he can cause a stink and cannot force a fair arbitration process.

So, losing, in the midst of a winning union grievance and possible lawsuit by Brady, is victory, with the other 31 owners gaining power to his detriment in keeping goodell, or choosing his successor.

I say it again, if goodell decided this was the punishment, besides losing loudly, what could Kraft have done about it?

What exactly did he have to lose by appealing? I think that there a real possibility Brady's suspension could be lifted because it may be in Goodell's own best interest to avoid court. It would at least look awkward if Goodell vacated Brady's suspension but upheld the Patriots penalties. Goodell now appears to be in a position where he can exonerate Brady, screw the Patriots (because they accepted the penalty), and avoid court.

Kraft's surrender makes absolutely no sense unless there were side deals we don't know about.

 

[Wax Frog]

I now argue with any critics of the science with a picture and two words:

EXPLAIN THIS:

edit: this one may be even better, since they will say that boiling water and ice are too crazy extremes

Wise move to have labels for the objects in the image. Maybe you should use blue crayon for the water too, just to be safe

 

[Ring 6]

Can Brady and the NFLPA request that Wells attend the appeal hearing and question him?

 

[Nunchucks]

The Wells Report is a sinking ship. Goodell has to decide when and how to bail off, or else he will go down with it.

He will go down with the Wells report, that way he can tell the owners he put up the good fight.