Reiss see offense in state of flux after loss to Arizona and wonders why

[Brady_to_Moss]

Obviously, one conclusion is that Welker is vastly overpaid, but that does NOT matter now.

Are you basing this off of these last 2 games?

his stats last year:

122 1,569 9


Based on these last 2 games yes becasue they arn't using him

 

[upstater1]

They are running the ball too much.:idea2:

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Greg Bedard, the self proclaimed wet blanket of reason, lays it all out and probes a little deeper than even the normally reticent Reiss. He covers all the rationales that could be in play including the one that under no circumstances could be spun as legitimate, and then concludes:

So let’s not even go there.

In the wake of Hernandez’s injury, we might not have to. We’ll have to wait and see how things play out.

The Patriots tried to phase Welker out, but now they likely need him. It’s funny how things work out like that.

Role of Patriots’ Welker further in doubt - Patriots - Boston.com

 

[12ClutchFactor]

Greg Bedard, the self proclaimed wet blanket of reason, lays it all out and probes a little deeper than even the normally reticent Reiss. He covers all the rationales that could be in play including the one that under no circumstances could be spun as legitimate, and then concludes:






Role of Patriots’ Welker further in doubt - Patriots - Boston.com

The sad thing is, there is no other conclusion to draw except that Belichick and Josh were indeed trying to completely phase Welker out for whatever reason.

Combine this, with some other curious moves, and this is the first time in a long time that I can honestly say I have little to no confidence in this coaching regime pulling it together and getting this team back into one cohesive, well oiled unit. It just seems like Belichick has finally reached the point where all of his past success has put him in a place of supreme arrogance. And this arrogance allows Belichick to think that he can stick any old rusty part into the machine and make it work just because "I'm Belichick."

Overall, its just sad to say things come to this.

 

[Rob0729]

The problem is that Joshie McDouchie sucks ass. Do not let 200 blind you. He sucks ass. Look no further than his drafting Tim Tebow. My biggest question is why BB has so much faith in the guy. I can't wait to see what Salas can't do.

First what does drafting Tim Tebow have to do with anything?

Second, Salas was traded for basically nothing to be a bottom of a roster guy. I mean McDaniels potentially sunk this franchise for years for blinding Belichick into trading a CONDITIONAL 2015 LATE DRAFT PICK for Salas. You do realize if Salas is a bust, the Pats traded nothing to get him.

Third, it wasn't McDaniels fault that Hernandez went down on the third offensive play, Brady had a tipped ball INT, Brady missed a wide open Gronk in the red zone, Gronk got flagged for a questionable holding call on what would have been the game winning TD, the Cards blocking a punt that gave them a 2 yard TD drive, and a whole host of reasons why the Pats lost this game.

You McDaniels haters were just waiting for the first game the offense sputters. He idn't call a great game by any means, but he was not THE REASON the Pats lost. Not in a long shot.

 

[Rob0729]

The O is in idenity crisis now with AH out..or at least was yesterday. They had no confidence in anything they did. Could have been due to AH. Or the bad week at practice. We won't know

I think it had a lot to do with you go into the game with a certain game plan and when you lose a huge piece of that game plan on the third play, it can take you a while to adjust. Many teams in the same situation would have completely collapsed and it would have been a blowout.

By the end of the game, it looked like the Pats were clicking pretty well. The Cards are a good defense. We need to give them credit, but the Pats scored on their last two drives before the last one and should have had a TD on the last one that won the game if not for a holding call that the real refs rarely if ever would have called.

 

[Kontradiction]

There were some rumors in another thread that Welker has been struggling in practice.

Those would seem to run counter to the reports during TC when he was apparently the best receiver on the team. He almost topped 100 yards on Sunday even though, for some unknown reason, a lesser receiver was getting playing time ahead of him and the offense clearly suffered from that (being one of the many reasons... OL play and lack of quality receivers after what he have now included). Before yesterday, I had to believe that he was injured. But now, I'm not sure what's going on. I would still love to believe that they are limiting him because of injury, but now it's appearing more and more as if he is healthy and Edelman is getting snaps ahead of him. If that's the case, it's one of the worst decisions that Belichick has ever made.

 

[everlong]

There's a lot of speculation going on with insufficient data to back up any of these theories. I could make the case that's it's McDaniels trying to put his stamp back on the offense and he is stressing Lloyd who's his guy for that reason. There's evidence to support that case but can anybody say for certain it's true? Boomer Esiason floated a theory that perhaps Welker has been clashing with McDaniels and the sit down has been a little message. Could be right, who knows. Gresh thought the came plan de-emphasized Welker because of the length of the defenders on the D-Line for Arizona making smaller lanes for Brady underneath. A lot of Welker's opportunities weren't between the hashes like they normally are.

I will say this regarding if Bill is involved and this really is them trying to phase Welker out. It doesn't fit the profile. Bill took Ty Law back after he tried to shoot his way out of town and went as far as calling Bill a liar. They took Branch back after his holdout forced a trade. They took Gaffney back for an audition after he left for more money. Mankins came back after his holdout. Seymour and Bill clashed often. Samuel was tagged. Bill is about winning the next game.

I don't think he's looking at next year or any bull ***** like that. If you want to make the case they are trying to diversify the game plans for more balance going forward I can buy into that but I don't think they're phasing him out.

Josh worries me way more than Bill. Josh is very stubborn and confident and if there's some kind of shift of thinking and he's locked into it changing may be difficult.

 

[JJDChE]

I was waiting for a really good chicken little thread!

There's some great and entertaining overreaction in here. (oh, and some really good baseless speculation!)

Thanks for brightening up my Monday, guys!!

 

[Rob0729]

Gresh thought the came plan de-emphasized Welker because of the length of the defenders on the D-Line for Arizona making smaller lanes for Brady underneath. A lot of Welker's opportunities weren't between the hashes like they normally are.

This could be the case. Look at the first play of the game. It was an INT caused by a tip at the line. Obviously, if Gresh's theory is right, Edelman wasn't the primary target on the play and Brady checked down to him.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

The sad thing is, there is no other conclusion to draw except that Belichick and Josh were indeed trying to completely phase Welker out for whatever reason.

Combine this, with some other curious moves, and this is the first time in a long time that I can honestly say I have little to no confidence in this coaching regime pulling it together and getting this team back into one cohesive, well oiled unit. It just seems like Belichick has finally reached the point where all of his past success has put him in a place of supreme arrogance. And this arrogance allows Belichick to think that he can stick any old rusty part into the machine and make it work just because "I'm Belichick."

Overall, its just sad to say things come to this.

Well besides this one...

I find many of the posts on this thread rather ridiculous, along with the cries of doom after one loss.

The offense was panned by many at the end of last year for not having enough diversity and relying on too few weapons. Welker was lambasted for not making a difficult catch. Josh McDaniels was brought in along with a number of new weapons, and people lauded the "Rubik's cube" diversity of play calling and use of personnel last week. This week McDaniels is panned for his play calling and not relying on the old stalwarts enough.

I wasn't thrilled with some of the play calling, to be honest. But McDaniels didn't knock Hernandez out of the game, he didn't drop the 2 point conversion attempt or any number of completable balls, he didn't miss the block on Quentin Groves on the punt attempt, he didn't call back the touchdown to Woodhead, and he didn't shank the field goal at the end of the game.

I think the Pats are making a conscious attempt to diversify the offense, and right now it's a work in progress. I don't think there's any slighting of Welker because of his contract situation, which I frankly find absurd, along with the idea that they are reducing his time in preparation to trade him.

Last year Welker was targeted 172 times, or just under 11 times per game. So far this year he's been targed 16 times, for an average of 8 times per game. That doesn't seem horrible to me.

We bemoaned the lack of a 3rd WR in 2009 and 2011. It seems like the team is making an effort to develop Julian Edelman, and I expect they'll make an effort to get Greg Salas involved as well. I'm hoping they'll continue to work on integrating the running game, including perhaps even Shane Vereen if he ever gets active. I too see an offense in flux, but I'm not sure why Reiss is wondering why. It will take some time to figure out how to blend all the ingredients, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some games where the offense is a bit out of sync. Better now than in the Super Bowl.

A WW-centric offense with little run/pass balance has proven itself unsustainable in the post season. It makes a ton of sense for the coaching staff to be making some changes.

 

[randomk1]

A WW-centric offense with little run/pass balance has proven itself unsustainable in the post season.

Where the hell do you come up with that? Other factors don't come into this? Lack of talent in other areas? 2 plays(or an injury) go different and WW would be a 2X SB champ and a one time SB MVP right now. And as if having Edelman provides something different from Welker. He's just a ****tier version of WW.


I see no logical reason to have Welker on the sidelines with Edelman on the field other than that WW is injured and according to Welker he is fine.

 

[Kontradiction]

I was waiting for a really good chicken little thread!

There's some great and entertaining overreaction in here. (oh, and some really good baseless speculation!)

Thanks for brightening up my Monday, guys!!

What hard evidence is anybody supposed to go on? The majority of the football watching world is speculating on this currently because of the tight lipped policy of the Patriots. IMO, Welker being on the sidelines while Edelman starts the game is as good a reason as any to speculate.

 

[JJDChE]

What hard evidence is anybody supposed to go on? The majority of the football watching world is speculating on this currently because of the tight lipped policy of the Patriots. IMO, Welker being on the sidelines while Edelman starts the game is as good a reason as any to speculate.

IOW: "I don't know what the reason is...so I'll make one up!"


It's not so much the speculation as it is the crazy reasoning people come up to validate their whacked out speculation and have themselves convinced that their insane theory is the only possible explanation. Comedy gold.

 

[Kontradiction]

IOW: "I don't know what the reason is...so I'll make one up!"


It's not so much the speculation as it is the crazy reasoning people come up to validate their whacked out speculation and have themselves convinced that their insane theory is the only possible explanation. Comedy gold.

Sounds like a figment of your imagination. The following are plausible scenarios for why Welker's playing time has been limited...

1. Injured.

2. Outperformed by Edelman.

3. Phased out of offense for number of reasons (de-value, not a part of game plan, etc...)

For the most part, that's what people are speculating on. There are a few people in the thread that are trying to float rumors that it's because McDaniels or Belichick are pissed off at him, but those are the exception and not the rule. IMO, these three reasons are perfectly valid for discussion given what little has come out of New England regarding his playing time decrease.

And if you don't want to see the thread, or consider it comedy gold over it's perceived "ridiculousness", there's always an ignore feature at the top of the page.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Makes no sense either since Welker has always been a great blocker. I think it was just Mike fishing for any possible reason to make sense of it. Besides, that would quickly become a tell. And it wasn't the case in week 1 when Riddley ran more/better and Edleman was on the field less.

Until someone provides a better explanation, I'm going to continue to assume that Welker is less than 100%, and has come kind of a wear-and-tear injury that Belichick is trying to prevent from getting worse. Any other explanation, which involves Welker being fully available but not being used for some other reason, simply doesn't fit his MO.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

Where the hell do you come up with that? Other factors don't come into this? Lack of talent in other areas? 2 plays(or an injury) go different and WW would be a 2X SB champ and a one time SB MVP right now. And as if having Edelman provides something different from Welker. He's just a ****tier version of WW.


I see no logical reason to have Welker on the sidelines with Edelman on the field other than that WW is injured and according to Welker he is fine.

I'm confused; did you provide anything in that rant to actually contradict my statement? I see nothing besides excuses as to why the drop-off isn't WW's fault. I didn't say it's WW's fault that it's unsustainable, I just stated that it was. I also didn't say Edleman provides anything that WW doesn't...

I don't think it's beyond reason to think that the Pats coaching staff isn't thrilled with how anemic the offense becomes in the postseason. I'm not blaming this on WW, but on the fact that when an offense is reliant on 1-2 receivers as much as the Pats have been on WW+Moss/Gronk it becomes easier to game plan them. Limiting WW's reps could be as simple as making sure other guys get targets and reps, and that the team has a functional game plan in the case that a team takes WW away.

Just for reference in the postseason pre-2007 the Pats averaged 25.3pts per game and since they've averaged 23.3pts per game. Considering that the sweeping changes were made on offense to be able to compete in high scoring games; it really seems like they might've missed the mark.

 

[Deus Irae]

I find many of the posts on this thread rather ridiculous, along with the cries of doom after one loss.

The offense was panned by many at the end of last year for not having enough diversity and relying on too few weapons. Welker was lambasted for not making a difficult catch. Josh McDaniels was brought in along with a number of new weapons, and people lauded the "Rubik's cube" diversity of play calling and use of personnel last week. This week McDaniels is panned for his play calling and not relying on the old stalwarts enough.

I wasn't thrilled with some of the play calling, to be honest. But McDaniels didn't knock Hernandez out of the game, he didn't drop the 2 point conversion attempt or any number of completable balls, he didn't miss the block on Quentin Groves on the punt attempt, he didn't call back the touchdown to Woodhead, and he didn't shank the field goal at the end of the game.

I think the Pats are making a conscious attempt to diversify the offense, and right now it's a work in progress. I don't think there's any slighting of Welker because of his contract situation, which I frankly find absurd, along with the idea that they are reducing his time in preparation to trade him.

Last year Welker was targeted 172 times, or just under 11 times per game. So far this year he's been targed 16 times, for an average of 8 times per game. That doesn't seem horrible to me.

We bemoaned the lack of a 3rd WR in 2009 and 2011. It seems like the team is making an effort to develop Julian Edelman, and I expect they'll make an effort to get Greg Salas involved as well. I'm hoping they'll continue to work on integrating the running game, including perhaps even Shane Vereen if he ever gets active. I too see an offense in flux, but I'm not sure why Reiss is wondering why. It will take some time to figure out how to blend all the ingredients, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some games where the offense is a bit out of sync. Better now than in the Super Bowl.

While there's a great deal wrong with your post, I'll just note the most obvious:

With Hernandez lost due to injury, it's natural that Welker's targets went up, so trying to defend his current level of targets by using yesterday's game is completely disingenuous. In the game Hernandez was healthy, Welker got 5 targets.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well besides this one...



A WW-centric offense with little run/pass balance has proven itself unsustainable in the post season. It makes a ton of sense for the coaching staff to be making some changes.

Ummm....

A WW-centric offense with little run/pass balance got to within a couple minutes of winning the Super Bowl. By no means did it prove itself unsustainable in the post season.

Frankly, the defenders and homers are embarrassing themselves in these threads by making claims such as the one you've made.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'm not going to get into the different conspiracy theories but a bad drop last week and a bad drop vs TN has not helped his cause.

However with him playing a ton after AH goes down muddies that theory too so it clear he isn't "buried" in the depth chart.