Reiss: An ominous sign?

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

So according to you, if you're a realist and question your team than you're not really a fan and "true fans" must always think their team will win. Sounds childish to me.

The word fan is short for fanatic and is someone one who supports or believes is something enthusiastically and without question.

Someone who carefully analysis the situation and questions the cause or the likely results can hardly be considered a fanatic, could they?

Does a fanatic Muslim think that, maybe Christianity has it right?

Does a fanatic Peta member think maybe meat would taste good?

Does a fanatic pro-lifer wonder if the pro-choice movement might have some valid points?

If no, than why should a fanatic supporter of the Patriots think the Jets might win the AFCE?

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

The word fan is short for fanatic and is someone one who supports or believes is something enthusiastically and without question.

Someone who carefully analysis the situation and questions the cause or the likely results can hardly be considered a fanatic, could they?

–noun
an enthusiastic devotee, follower, or admirer of a sport, pastime, celebrity, etc.:

Fan | Define Fan at Dictionary.com

No requirement for blind devotion or willful ignorance.

 

[fgssand]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

1.) Some of the players brought in to repair those holes were cut.

2.) Others of the players brought in to repair those holes have sucked.



I see something different.




They aren't adding depth, they're replacing failures. There's a difference.



Oddly enough, opposing offenses will be developing and maturing over that same period of time.

So, where do you see them headed for the year? 8-8? Worse? Playoffs??

 

[Patspsycho]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

The Patriots have made a lot of bad personel moves lately. Galloway being one, bad drafts have made the issue worse. What players do the Patriots have left from the following drafts? 2006, 2007, 2008 ?

Not to be a ****, but our record was 39-9 during those years so I fail to see your point.

 

[TheComeback]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

The Patriots have made a lot of bad personel moves lately. Galloway being one, bad drafts have made the issue worse. What players do the Patriots have left from the following drafts? 2006, 2007, 2008 ?

It's too easy to focus on the bad moves. They've also made some good moves recently: Edelman, Vollmer, Aiken, McGowan, Bodden, Kyle Arrington, and Banta-Cain just to name a few. You can probably throw Connolly and this year's draft in there, too. It certainly doesn't help this team that they've been the victim of injuries to Ty Warren and Bodden, as well as a holdout from Mankins.

But who cares about that when we can be all doom and gloom instead?

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

So, where do you see them headed for the year? 8-8? Worse? Playoffs??

Division champions.


It's possible to see problems with something and also see strengths with it.

 

[fgssand]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

Division champions.


It's possible to see problems with something and also see strengths with it.

Fair enough - I would love to see that as well and then see what gives in the playoffs.

Luck with injuries usually determines deep playoff runs anyway.

 

[wdkantro2]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

Larsen - cut
Ohrnberger - cut
Bussey - cut
Welch - cut
Ghiacius - signed, then cut
Simmons - signed, then cut
Ojinnaka - traded for
Stapleton - signed, then cut
Steve Maneri - claimed
Mankins - unsigned
Kaczur - switching positions, injured to the point of requiring back surgery, still kept on active roster



Keep living in the land of unicorns and fairy princesses, though.

I'm not sure what your point is here, but around 500 players lost their jobs yesterday. The Pats aren't the only team cutting guys. And yes, in order to cut someone, you need to sign/draft them to begin with. A lot of guys are brought in as TC bodies. Ohrnberger is the only guy I consider a bust there because we traded up to get him. The other guys were all late picks and were iffy to begin with.
I also think it speaks volumes of the starters that none of our many OL draft picks are able to crack the starting lineup. Do I think things are perfect? Absolutely not. Do I think trading undisclosed draft picks for a special teamer and a #4 safety is desperation? No way. Both sides, the crazy homers and the negatoids (or realists, as they call themselves), need to take a big step off the ledge. The Pats aren't perfect, but who is?

 

[swheeler23]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

Not to be a ****, but our record was 39-9 during those years so I fail to see your point.

The drafted players should be making an impact on the team now,instead they were released.

 

[makoute]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

Has Crable ever played? Will he ever play?

I think he was being funny.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

I, for one, am sick of all of this doom and gloom BS.

Save that for the Sox, this team is the Patriots, and not one team in the NFL is taking them for granted.

Enough with the dark clouds bullcrap. Thank you.

May I climb down off of my soap box now?

I agree!!!! These sky is falling posts are silly. Enough already Pats fans.
Hmmmm, what are the chances this much maligned D turns out to be better than everyone thinks?? I think those chances are quite good. This doesn't have to be a great defense for the Patriots to win and win big. This Patriot offense is going to be high octane. But the difference this year is they're going to be ball control/clock eating high octane. This O is not going to be stopped in the redzone. Difference this year is they're going to take their time getting to the zone. Nothing helps a defense out more than an offense that keeps them off the field. These Patriot special teams actually have athletic playmakers and are going to make a difference. When is the last time we said that about our special teams?? This defense has to be an adequate defense. That's all! And I believe it will be. This defense has youth and inexperience but it also has genuine athletic ability i.e. the ability to make a game changing plays.
Relax Patriot fans!! This team is going to be so much fun to watch and fun to root for. Don't stress. Enjoy!!

 

[sg14]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

Thanks Deus,
this is what is bugging me, all these guys, plus several more FA types from last year, and then we got to get someone else's 54th player, that was a FA this year.

We should be doing better.

Larsen - cut
Ohrnberger - cut
Bussey - cut
Welch - cut
Ghiacius - signed, then cut
Simmons - signed, then cut
Ojinnaka - traded for
Stapleton - signed, then cut
Steve Maneri - claimed
Mankins - unsigned
Kaczur - switching positions, injured to the point of requiring back surgery, still kept on active roster



Keep living in the land of unicorns and fairy princesses, though.

 

[WhoaDirty]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

The sad thing is this organization should've won at least 2-3 super bowls in the last 5 years but their FA moves, trades and draft picks prevented that from happening.

I say that because the Pats have the best QB in the game, best coach in the game, and two of the best WR's in the game. Overall, I believed the Pats had the best core of players in the NFL. However, they just couldn't draft any role players to help them out.

You make it sound like winning the SB is easy - teams need bounces to go their way to win championships. In the last 5 years the Pats have lost in the SB because a couple big name players couldn't make plays to finish the game. They also lost that QB for the season two years ago. And didn't have one of those WRs for the playoffs last year. Now I agree that the Pats could have managed talent transactions better in the last couple years, but to say the Pats should have won 2-3 SBs with those major issues is a bit silly.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

:agree::yeahthat::yeahthat:

I agree!!!! These sky is falling posts are silly. Enough already Pats fans.
Hmmmm, what are the chances this much maligned D turns out to be better than everyone thinks?? I think those chances are quite good. This doesn't have to be a great defense for the Patriots to win and win big. This Patriot offense is going to be high octane. But the difference this year is they're going to be ball control/clock eating high octane. This O is not going to be stopped in the redzone. Difference this year is they're going to take their time getting to the zone. Nothing helps a defense out more than an offense that keeps them off the field. These Patriot special teams actually have athletic playmakers and are going to make a difference. When is the last time we said that about our special teams?? This defense has to be an adequate defense. That's all! And I believe it will be. This defense has youth and inexperience but it also has genuine athletic ability i.e. the ability to make a game changing plays.
Relax Patriot fans!! This team is going to be so much fun to watch and fun to root for. Don't stress. Enjoy!!

:yeahthat:

 

[Metaphors]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

Larsen - cut
Ohrnberger - cut
Bussey - cut
Welch - cut
Ghiacius - signed, then cut
Simmons - signed, then cut
Ojinnaka - traded for
Stapleton - signed, then cut
Steve Maneri - claimed
Mankins - unsigned
Kaczur - switching positions, injured to the point of requiring back surgery, still kept on active roster

Larsen - Trust me, I saw Larsen play in college as much as anyone and he was an unexpected wreck in the preseason. I think he has the potential to develop into a solid center but he didn't earn a spot and didn't make it to the PS. 6th round picks that don't make it are hardly uncommon.

Ohrnberger - Still with the team.

Can't believe you are using the following guys as evidence of anything...
Bussey - 5th round comp pick.
Welch - 7th round pick
Ghiacius - Camp body
Simmons/Stapleton - Taking a look/Shadow roster

Ojinnaka - Backup OL with flexibility

Maneri - Developmental OL with a excellent skill set but no experience

Mankins - What is your point? Should they just give him 5 yr/$40M with $20M guaranteed? Next move is his, not the Pats.

Kaczur - Obviously they believe he will be able to contribute sooner rather than later. Do your medical reports say something different?

Your list is a bit of a hodgepodge and I'm not sure what you think it proves. Late round picks don't make the squad? Some players need time on the practice squad to develop? Players are signed with the intention of serving as camp bodies with a long-shot hope of sticking? You can find interesting talent after cut-down day? These things happen every year so I'm not sure why you find it so surprising this year.

BTW, the gameday inactives for week #1 as I see it (Price, Deaderick, Maneri, Love, Fletcher, Wheatley, BJGE, Kaczur) has a ton of potential. The offense is a top unit, the defense is young (almost painfully so) and the ST have the potential to be great.

With Warren, Bodden and McGowan on IR, the defense will have to grow up fast. If they don't, the Pats will have some struggles this year. Take 3 comparable players off any defense and you will likely be saying the same thing. If they do play to their potential, the Pats should be favored in every game they play.

 

[jmt57]

The Patriots have made a lot of bad personel moves lately. Galloway being one, bad drafts have made the issue worse. What players do the Patriots have left from the following drafts? 2006, 2007, 2008 ?

I put in the years I thought were bad drafts. 2006, 2007 and 2008? What draft picks are still here from those years?

The topic of the 2007 draft has been discussed countless times in the past, but in my opinion you need to consider the additions of Welker and Moss. Yes, they were not draft picks but they were acquired with draft picks. Doesn't what goes into drafting a player - scouting, player evaluation, and decision making - also apply equally to trading a draft pick for a player (or visa versa)? On top of that it has been acknowledged that the '07 draft class was one of the worst in years. If you want to condemn the Pats for all those 6th and 7th round picks that didn't stick, you may want to look at all the names of all the players selected late in that draft by all 32 NFL teams and count how many you recognize; the list will be very short.

To answer your question there are seven Pats on the roster that were drafted in those three years - plus Welker and Moss. There are also six free agent additions from those three years. In addition the Pats traded LeKevin Smith for a 5th round pick which was then used to enable the Pats to move in last year's draft, and perhaps the door is not yet closed on Shawn Crable. The '08 draft would most likely have looked much better if Goodell hadn't taken away a first round pick.

If you're only going to look for Galloway-like transactions (which was '09, not '06-'08 by the way), then that's all you will find. I'll agree there were several transactions that the Pats wish they could have back from that period, but I don't think the roster moves were as absolutely negative as many claim them to be.

 

[Pats726]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

Reiss uses the trades for Ojinnaka, Page and White as the premise for the idea that these moves are "an ominous sign". Ironically Reiss points out in a separate blog entry that it is difficult (if not impossible) to assess these trades because they are all for undisclosed draft picks. Not sure how we can come to that conclusion when we don't even know what was traded away. For that matter, how about we let these guys play a few games before rushing to judgement?

Trading a 3rd and 5th for a player after free agency and the draft (Derrick Burgess) could be labeled as a move of desperation. I don't know that I would call the trade for Ojinnaka a desperate move; he was brought in as a backup with experience, to replace another player who was slated to be an experienced backup (Kaczur) who could fill in if needed at multiple positions.

As for Page and White, I don't think they are going to be expected to have major roles, so why bring them up? Why the concern over losing what is presumably a late-round pick when so many late round picks never contribute in the NFL? Another consideration is that with so many rookies added to the roster in each of the last two years, there is that much less room for a 6th or 7th round pick to make the team. Perhaps adding a player with some experience makes more sense than counting on another rookie to develop. With the number of draft picks the team had, did anybody really expect every single one of them to make the roster?

If the Pats were trading away first or second round draft picks a week before the start of the season, then I could see how one could call that a desperate move. I don't see how you could say the same because they traded away a late round pick. If the Pats were in the business of making knee jerk desperate moves, they would have made in-season trades for a QB in 2008 and a WR in 2009.

I agree...BUT I also think Mike jumped teh gun a bit...I REALLY got the feeling a few days ago this would be a busy week of changes..so..I tend to think he's talking about a final roster that isn't final....Please Mike WAIT a few days until all the pieces are in place!!! Judging something while there are moving parts...MORE changes...BUT I am not surprised...the negativity is everywhere...so...why not??

 

[billdog3484]

good article. tells it how it is.

 

[jmt57]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

this is what is bugging me, all these guys, plus several more FA types from last year, and then we got to get someone else's 54th player, that was a FA this year.

We should be doing better.

If you put together a list of players that consists only of players who were cut, and does not include any players that are on the roster, then guess what you are going to end up with on your list?

A list of players that are not on the roster!

And then after putting that list of players that are not on the roster together, you want to complain about ... the fact they didn't make the roster? Huh?



Guess what, every NFL team has at least 27 players in their training camp that do not end up on their roster. So I guess every NFL personnel department "should be doing better" at minimum 27 times a year, every year.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

Larsen - Trust me, I saw Larsen play in college as much as anyone and he was an unexpected wreck in the preseason. I think he has the potential to develop into a solid center but he didn't earn a spot and didn't make it to the PS. 6th round picks that don't make it are hardly uncommon.

Using this logic, you can excuse everything ever done in football.

Ohrnberger - Still with the team.

Practice squad. Let's not play games here.

Can't believe you are using the following guys as evidence of anything...
Bussey - 5th round comp pick.
Welch - 7th round pick
Ghiacius - Camp body
Simmons/Stapleton - Taking a look/Shadow roster

Yes, bringing up the O-line players that got cut because they weren't good enough is unfair of me when I'm talking about offensive line woes. :bricks:

Ojinnaka - Backup OL with flexibility

Sucks. Was going to get cut. Patriots are in so much trouble on the line that this guy actually has become a part of the team to date.

Maneri - Developmental OL with a excellent skill set but no experience

No problem with conversion projects on the practice squad. However, when you're claiming him for the 53, that's a different issue.

Mankins - What is your point? Should they just give him 5 yr/$40M with $20M guaranteed? Next move is his, not the Pats.

You have no idea what happened, so the "next move" comment has no basis. The Patriots did something to piss off Mankins when they didn't have to. Right or wrong is irrelevant at this point, since we're talking about the present situation.

Kaczur - Obviously they believe he will be able to contribute sooner rather than later. Do your medical reports say something different?

I'd like him to be back tomorrow. The reality is that he's recovering from surgery.

Your list is a bit of a hodgepodge and I'm not sure what you think it proves. Late round picks don't make the squad? Some players need time on the practice squad to develop? Players are signed with the intention of serving as camp bodies with a long-shot hope of sticking? You can find interesting talent after cut-down day? These things happen every year so I'm not sure why you find it so surprising this year.

It demonstrates the disaster that is the current offensive line. It's 4.5 players deep, and that's it.

BTW, the gameday inactives for week #1 as I see it (Price, Deaderick, Maneri, Love, Fletcher, Wheatley, BJGE, Kaczur) has a ton of potential. The offense is a top unit, the defense is young (almost painfully so) and the ST have the potential to be great.

What does that have to do with the problems of the offensive line?

With Warren, Bodden and McGowan on IR, the defense will have to grow up fast. If they don't, the Pats will have some struggles this year. Take 3 comparable players off any defense and you will likely be saying the same thing. If they do play to their potential, the Pats should be favored in every game they play.

Now this is good comedy.