Red Sox, Twins Discussing Deal for Santana

[bakes781]

Add me to the don't include Ellsbury in the deal point of view.

Yankees fans have a narrow view of their prospects. Already comparing Joba to Papelbon? :singing: Your ultimatum may have worked on weak minded A-Rod, but it won't work this time.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I just read that on another site. If that's legit, then the Sox just stole Santana. They traded a a couple of dimes, and a nickel, and got back a buck. Great move for the Sox if that's the deal. I'd have to think that Ellsbury would have to be in place of Crisp if I'm the Twins. None of those prospects blow me away.

Still nothing to report - in fact there's some indication that the Sox are backing off of Santana.

All this is good in my opinion... there was too much hype taking place and with more players coming into consideration now its going to devalue Santana in terms of players and possibly salary.

I know I heard on Denise and Kelly-Ann this morning a Twins sportswriter, who while acknowledging Santana's incredible record of consistency, did admit there were some danger signs shown last year, including less use of the slider, perhaps indicating some elbow pain, and a tendency to give up more home runs at strategic times - though again, his ERA was still good last year.

He's still a proven commodity but with that type of report - which Theo is sure to recognize - the question becomes how much salary to commit to such a player.

the Twins meanwhile threaten to hold him up to next year's trading deadline - which as I mentioned before is a big risk on their part though does have some pros as well as cons - But overall I think they'd be better off dropping their demands, and hoping that Santana isn't going to be too greedy for salary to get a job done.

 

[BelichickFan]

I know I heard on Denise and Kelly-Ann this morning a Twins sportswriter, who while acknowledging Santana's incredible record of consistency, did admit there were some danger signs shown last year, including less use of the slider, perhaps indicating some elbow pain, and a tendency to give up more home runs at strategic times - though again, his ERA was still good last year.

There's little to suggest there's a problem. His K rate has maintained, K/BB is slightly off but not much, his H% is incredibly consistent. His xERA is up a little but still good. And he's not had any seasons of significant overwork. He looks very safe to me.

 

[Real World]

Ditto. I would rather throw in another player with the Lester package then deal Ellsbury. If Ellsbury leaves, for some reason I'm seeing him in a Yankee uniform down the road, and that would kill me.

Ellsbury got his first sniff of the pros this year. He's not an FA for 6 years.

 

[Real World]

Add me to the don't include Ellsbury in the deal point of view.

Yankees fans have a narrow view of their prospects. Already comparing Joba to Papelbon? :singing: Your ultimatum may have worked on weak minded A-Rod, but it won't work this time.

What's there not to compare between the two? They're both minor league starters who have been moved to the pen, with dominating success. Sure Joba's sample size is small, but he was utterly dominating.

As for the ultimatum, the Yankees implemented one because they included Hughes after the Twins demanded it, and weren't going to get strung along there after. Personally, I'd never include hughes in a deal for Santana in the first place. The latest reports are that the Twins are considering holding onto Johan cuz they want more than the Sox are offering.

 

[Real World]

Still nothing to report - in fact there's some indication that the Sox are backing off of Santana.

All this is good in my opinion... there was too much hype taking place and with more players coming into consideration now its going to devalue Santana in terms of players and possibly salary.

I know I heard on Denise and Kelly-Ann this morning a Twins sportswriter, who while acknowledging Santana's incredible record of consistency, did admit there were some danger signs shown last year, including less use of the slider, perhaps indicating some elbow pain, and a tendency to give up more home runs at strategic times - though again, his ERA was still good last year.

He's still a proven commodity but with that type of report - which Theo is sure to recognize - the question becomes how much salary to commit to such a player.

the Twins meanwhile threaten to hold him up to next year's trading deadline - which as I mentioned before is a big risk on their part though does have some pros as well as cons - But overall I think they'd be better off dropping their demands, and hoping that Santana isn't going to be too greedy for salary to get a job done.

I think the Twins overplayed their hand here. They might be better off holding onto him, and hoping to get contenders to bid come June & July. That's a risk though.

 

[BelichickFan]

I think the Twins overplayed their hand here.

I don't think they overplayed their hand - based on what they were said to be getting from the Red Sox anyway - I think they were offered a crappy package. A guy like Santana should get no less than Lester and Ellsbury IMO.

 

[groundgame]

December 4, 2007, the day the Sox-Santana possible trade talk hype cannot be any stronger, and who picks that day to changes agents? Ellsbury, a key figure in the talks, decides to switch to Scott Boras (see A-Rod) as his agent. Ellsbury could not have picked a better day, nor selected a better agent, to immunize himself from being dealt from Boston.

 

[patsfanofNC12]

December 4, 2007, the day the Sox-Santana possible trade talk hype cannot be any stronger, and who picks that day to changes agents? Ellsbury, a key figure in the talks, decides to switch to Scott Boras (see A-Rod) as his agent. Ellsbury could not have picked a better day, nor selected a better agent, to immunize himself from being dealt from Boston.

Well now the talks have gone cold, and either we are in a cold period, or they are just deciding to possibly keep Santana.

 

[patriotspride]

Well now the talks have gone cold, and either we are in a cold period, or they are just deciding to possibly keep Santana.

as long as the stinkees dont get him im happy .

 

[IcyPatriot]

The Red Sox were being used as pawns IMO. I truly do not think Santana wants to come here. I think he wants to go to the Yankees or some team where he clearly is the ace of the team. I also think the Twins were using the Red Sox to up the ante.

 

[VJCPatriot]

The Red Sox were being used as pawns IMO. I truly do not think Santana wants to come here. I think he wants to go to the Yankees or some team where he clearly is the ace of the team. I also think the Twins were using the Red Sox to up the ante.

Don't really care. The Red Sox won't budge from their offer now the Yankees are out of the running. If the Twins want to rip someone off, it won't be the Red Sox.

 

[groundgame]

The Yankees and Red Sox both helped each other out. With both not overpaying, so far, with their top rookie prospects, the two giants will roll the dice that a new team does not emerge from here on, and that will likely see Santana staying put in MINN for '08. The battle will renewed as the NYY & BOS will re-visit the Santana auction 11 months from now, when only dollars and not prospects are needed to land the lefty.

The winner so far is Hank Steinbrenner, whose gutsy deadline forced the Sox to show the same mediocre hand the Yankees had.

 

[scout]

The winner so far is Hank Steinbrenner, whose gutsy deadline forced the Sox to show the same mediocre hand the Yankees had.

You JEST? Hank Steinbrenner is the laughing stock of baseball. Check out Chad Finn's Touching All The Bases , he nails it.
http://touchingallthebases.blogspot.com/

 

[Real World]

The Red Sox were being used as pawns IMO. I truly do not think Santana wants to come here. I think he wants to go to the Yankees or some team where he clearly is the ace of the team. I also think the Twins were using the Red Sox to up the ante.

Well, and vice versa. The Sox were involving themselves to up the price for the Yankees. Both teams have an interest in seeing that he doesn't go to the other, or if he does, costs them an exhorbent price.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I really don't think the Red Sox were pawns in the Santana deal.

They very clearly want and need pitching help - not so much for next year, but for 2009 - when Shilling and Wakefield could well be out of the rotation... and then if any of their prospects don't live up to their current hype, they're left in need of proven pitching with less value to trade.

It makes sense for the Sox to use the high value their prospects have NOW to get proven pitching as opposed to waiting until they are more desperate like the Yankees are now (though less so with the news of Pettitte)

I think this is borne out by the news that the Sox are now interested in Bedard - though once again, the Yankees are too and each are going to keep the price high.

The bottom line is, with Bedard, Santana, and Haren all potentially available I have a tough time thinking that the Sox aren't going to grab one of those proven commodities, giving up potential players to get them.

As far as Santana, as this is December the Twins can and probably should hold their cards for right now.

There's always the beginning of training camp to work a trade as well. And of course the trading deadline isn't until July - but I think beyond the beginning of training camp is far too long. At that point, Santana is risking injury, or poor reviews - and for the teams with prospects, those prospects might not show as much as would be hoped over the winter or early spring.

Everyone wants to get something done sooner rather than later ideally.

 

[BradyManny]

Well, and vice versa. The Sox were involving themselves to up the price for the Yankees. Both teams have an interest in seeing that he doesn't go to the other, or if he does, costs them an exhorbent price.

Co-sign. I think the Sox interest was a front, a whole lot of posturing. They just want to up the ante to prevent the Yanks from getting him.

Given Theo's track record, there's no evidence he'd be willing to give Santana the contract he wants whether in length or in dollars, and that's before you even begin talking about forking over prized prospects. If Santana were in a different position in his career contract-wise, like Beckett was, sure, he would be all over it. But with Santana on the verge of cashing in, I stand by my assertion that this trade should not and will not happen with the Sox involved - let's just hope an NL team, Mets perhaps, gets Santana instead of the Yanks.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

I don't understand the view that the Sox were just trying to drive up the price for the Yankees. We heard the same thing last year with Daisuke and it was just as wrong then.

Clement just came off the books. Schilling will probably be coming off the books next year. Wake is cheap. Beckett is a bargain for the next few years. Buchholz or lester will be cheap for the next 5-6 years (assuming one is traded for Santana while the other is retained). They have other cheap starters in the pipeline, and the luxury tax threshhold is moving up pretty quickly. They can afford him at 20-25M a year.

He's the best pitcher in baseball and a lefty (which the Sox could really use against NY). He'd be a great addition.

Unfortunately I don't see any way this deal is getting done now. The time for a Bos-Min deal has passed, and if they now go back either Boston needs to bend over and add more or a rookie GM needs to be willing to look weak. I don't expect either to happen.

It's unfortunate that Lowrie hasn't played a game in the majors yet. He would probably jump in and start for Minnesota this year, provide a heck of a lot more value than Melky "I pretty much suck" Cabrera, and they'd get all 6 of his pre-arb years. But because he hasn't broken into the majors yet and isn't a toolsy uber-prospect he's horribly undervalued by the press which will kill a rookie GM who picks him up in a deal for Santana.

Minnesota has overplayed their hand. They don't realize that Santana's value is really hampered by the need for a huge extension and the fact that Santana will hit the open market next year.

I'd rather see Boston pay him something silly like 30M a year (which would presumably outbid NY) next year. Let's assume he'd cost 23M a year in an extension anyway. For an extra 7M a year over 5-6 years (35-42M) you just bought Lester, Lowrie, Coco, and Masterson. That's more than worth it if you ask me.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I don't understand the view that the Sox were just trying to drive up the price for the Yankees. We heard the same thing last year with Daisuke and it was just as wrong then.

Clement just came off the books. Schilling will probably be coming off the books next year. Wake is cheap. Beckett is a bargain for the next few years. Buchholz or lester will be cheap for the next 5-6 years (assuming one is traded for Santana while the other is retained). They have other cheap starters in the pipeline, and the luxury tax threshhold is moving up pretty quickly. They can afford him at 20-25M a year.

He's the best pitcher in baseball and a lefty (which the Sox could really use against NY). He'd be a great addition.

Unfortunately I don't see any way this deal is getting done now. The time for a Bos-Min deal has passed, and if they now go back either Boston needs to bend over and add more or a rookie GM needs to be willing to look weak. I don't expect either to happen.

It's unfortunate that Lowrie hasn't played a game in the majors yet. He would probably jump in and start for Minnesota this year, provide a heck of a lot more value than Melky "I pretty much suck" Cabrera, and they'd get all 6 of his pre-arb years. But because he hasn't broken into the majors yet and isn't a toolsy uber-prospect he's horribly undervalued by the press which will kill a rookie GM who picks him up in a deal for Santana.

Minnesota has overplayed their hand. They don't realize that Santana's value is really hampered by the need for a huge extension and the fact that Santana will hit the open market next year.

I'd rather see Boston pay him something silly like 30M a year (which would presumably outbid NY) next year. Let's assume he'd cost 23M a year in an extension anyway. For an extra 7M a year over 5-6 years (35-42M) you just bought Lester, Lowrie, Coco, and Masterson. That's more than worth it if you ask me.

Obviously that wasn't the case with Dice-K... the Sox wanted him and legitimately wanted to outbid the Yankees.

I don't think when it comes to money and salary the Sox are overly concerned about how much profit the Yankees do and don't make.

When it comes to legitimate player prospects, that's another matter. The Sox very much want to make sure that if the Yankees trade for a player they have to give up as many prospects as possible. There's really no debate about that - it's just smart baseball.

The 2009 season does need to be a concern for the sox - not in salary but in terms of players.

Shilling will likely be gone, Wakefield might be beginning to break down too. Gaining one proven starter and seeing what one might get from a few of our prospects will fill those two holes... but I'd like to see them do even more than that.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Obviously that wasn't the case with Dice-K... the Sox wanted him and legitimately wanted to outbid the Yankees.

I don't think when it comes to money and salary the Sox are overly concerned about how much profit the Yankees do and don't make.

When it comes to legitimate player prospects, that's another matter. The Sox very much want to make sure that if the Yankees trade for a player they have to give up as many prospects as possible. There's really no debate about that - it's just smart baseball.

You are correct, it does make sense to make sure the Yankees weaken themselves as much as possible while getting Santana. Even if the Sox had no interest they'd be smart to drive up the price. I didn't mean to ignore this point and should have mentioned its validity.

I'm just saying that acquiring Santana makes plenty of sense for the Sox and I hate it when everything the Sox do is painted as playing defense vs the Yankees. The Sox need to worry about beating Detroit, Cleveland, and Anaheim too and Santana would greatly help them do so.