Red Sox, Twins Discussing Deal for Santana

[Bigdogx]

Remove Santana's availability and I'd still do it. He's Albert-freaking-Pujols.

And some pitcher is always available. I'd then trade for Bedard or blow away SD with an offer for Peavy if I felt like I really needed another top starter. I'd trade Buchholz and Ellsbury for Pujols every day of the week, so why not trade Beckett for Pujols and Buch + Ells for a Beckett replacement? I'm not saying it's possible, just that Pujols would be worth it.



You're horribly underselling Pujols while overrating Beckett. Look at Pujols's stats. I'd trade anyone in baseball for him (Papi included). Beckett has had two very good (though not really great) years, and just last year he was a major disappointment. I like projecting greatness too, but he hardly has a track record that makes him a sure thing (or as close as a pitcher gets to one) going forward.

The best player in baseball is a-rod if you want to go on stats and how is that working out for the yanks? You trade pitching away for hitting you lose plain and simple, this fact has been proven year after year in this league!

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

The best player in baseball is a-rod if you want to go on stats and how is that working out for the yanks? You trade pitching away for hitting you lose plain and simple, this fact has been proven year after year in this league!

But he isn't. A-Rod was the best player in baseball last year (a bad year for Pujols at .327/.429/.568, OPS+ 157) and everyone just decided to forget about prior years. Pujols was much better than A-Rod in 2006, 2004, and 2003. They were comparable in 2001, 2002, and 2005. Pujols was better in 2003 than A-Rod was last year, when mediots were talking about where his season ranked among the best ever.

Besides, A-Rod in NY has nothing to do with anything. The Yankees have had bad pitching (compared to their championship years) and he's had two bad seasons (by his standard) in his four years there. He's a special case for his confidence issues and the way the fans have hated him since he showed up.

Pedro had the best stretch of a few seasons ever in 99-00. How did that work out for Boston?

Minnesota has never won a championship with Santana. Does that means no team should go after ace pitchers?

Anyway, we're getting way off-topic here. I guess my point is just that yes I would trade Beckett for Pujols without thinking twice.

 

[TDWin]

i dare not trade my best pitcher and really the AL CY Young Award winner.

 

[scout]

The best player in baseball is a-rod if you want to go on stats and how is that working out for the yanks? You trade pitching away for hitting you lose plain and simple, this fact has been proven year after year in this league!

In determining the best player in baseball, you have to look at what they do under pressure. ESPN had a debate on the greatest clutch hitters, it was between Big Pappi and Pujols. No where in the discussion was A-Rod's name ever brought up.

 

[Real World]

Remove Santana's availability and I'd still do it. He's Albert-freaking-Pujols.

And some pitcher is always available. I'd then trade for Bedard or blow away SD with an offer for Peavy if I felt like I really needed another top starter. I'd trade Buchholz and Ellsbury for Pujols every day of the week, so why not trade Beckett for Pujols and Buch + Ells for a Beckett replacement? I'm not saying it's possible, just that Pujols would be worth it.

Well, we'll agree to disagree on a premier pitcher versus a premier hitter.

Bedard isn't being traded inside the division. The Orioles have stated so. You can have Peavy, as he's not a big game pitcher. Look at his playoff stats, and hit playoff game performance this season. Awful to put it nicely.

You're horribly underselling Pujols while overrating Beckett. Look at Pujols's stats. I'd trade anyone in baseball for him (Papi included). Beckett has had two very good (though not really great) years, and just last year he was a major disappointment. I like projecting greatness too, but he hardly has a track record that makes him a sure thing (or as close as a pitcher gets to one) going forward.

I'm in no way underselling Pujols. He's an exceptional player, and arguably, with ARod, the best player in baseball. The bottom line is that an Ace is always more valuable than a slugger. Look at Hanley Ramirez, and the back to back seasons he's just had. Do you think the Sox are even remotely disappointed in the deal they made? Nope.

 

[Real World]

But he isn't. A-Rod was the best player in baseball last year (a bad year for Pujols at .327/.429/.568, OPS+ 157) and everyone just decided to forget about prior years. Pujols was much better than A-Rod in 2006, 2004, and 2003. They were comparable in 2001, 2002, and 2005. Pujols was better in 2003 than A-Rod was last year, when mediots were talking about where his season ranked among the best ever.

Besides, A-Rod in NY has nothing to do with anything. The Yankees have had bad pitching (compared to their championship years) and he's had two bad seasons (by his standard) in his four years there. He's a special case for his confidence issues and the way the fans have hated him since he showed up.

Pedro had the best stretch of a few seasons ever in 99-00. How did that work out for Boston?

Minnesota has never won a championship with Santana. Does that means no team should go after ace pitchers?

Anyway, we're getting way off-topic here. I guess my point is just that yes I would trade Beckett for Pujols without thinking twice.

No one player will win a championship for a team in baseball. However, a pitcher has more control over a game than any single hitter ever could. A hitter gets a handful of AB's while a pitcher controls every single one.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Well, we'll agree to disagree on a premier pitcher versus a premier hitter.

Bedard isn't being traded inside the division. The Orioles have stated so. You can have Peavy, as he's not a big game pitcher. Look at his playoff stats, and hit playoff game performance this season. Awful to put it nicely.



I'm in no way underselling Pujols. He's an exceptional player, and arguably, with ARod, the best player in baseball. The bottom line is that an Ace is always more valuable than a slugger. Look at Hanley Ramirez, and the back to back seasons he's just had. Do you think the Sox are even remotely disappointed in the deal they made? Nope.

On the first part, we aren't simply talking premier vs premier. We're talking "truly special, best position player in baseball and going to enter the Hall of Fame on his first ballot unless he gets hurt" vs. "great but nothing truly special pitcher." We aren't talking about late 90s Pedro, early 90s Maddux, or Santana of a few years ago. Hell, Beckett was below league average in 2006.

The Orioles would trade Bedard to the Sox if they offered Buchholz, Ellsbury, and Lowrie (they're so stupid they actually might not, come to think of it). Regardless, my point was that great pitchers are out there and available (they're just expensive).

On the second part, I wasn't referring to you. Bigdogx entered hyperbole mode referring to Beckett, while calling Pujols overrated.

And Hanley has nothing to do with anything. Albert Pujols has pieces of guys like Hanley Ramirez in his stool. I'm not saying I'd trade Beckett for Hanley, Derek Lee, David Wright, Prince Fielder, or any other player not named Pujols. I'm saying that Albert Pujols is special.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

No one player will win a championship for a team in baseball. However, a pitcher has more control over a game than any single hitter ever could. A hitter gets a handful of AB's while a pitcher controls every single one.

In a seven game series a pitcher only affects two games. A hitter affects all seven. I'm not saying hitters are more important, just that it's silly to write off the effects of a hitter because he isn't a pitcher.

Look at the 2004 Sox. Schilling and Foulke and Lowe were vital pitchers but the Sox don't come anywhere close to winning if Ortiz doesn't hit the way he did.

If pitching were all that mattered the Braves would have won more than one championship in the 90s.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Latest update::

12/19/2007

http://www.twincities.com/walters

The Boston Red Sox remain the favorite to acquire Johan Santana from the Twins, insiders say.

Boston remains firm, though, as initially reported by the Pioneer Press, in offering just Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson. The Red Sox are adamantly opposed to substituting Jacoby Ellsbury for Crisp, and that's the current holdup.

Regardless, there's buzz that the Santana trade could be made within days.

Boston has a larger pool of players who interest Minnesota and can contribute to the Twins immediately, whereas many of the New York Yankees' top prospects are at least a season or two away from succeeding in the major leagues. The Yankees remain firmly opposed to trading pitchers Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy together for Santana, and they certainly won't trade Joba Chamberlain.

The dark horse for Santana remains the Angels, who have enough young players to appease the Twins, but they have been quiet, much the same as they were before popping out of the weeds with a $90 million, five-year free-agent offer for Torii Hunter.

Good Job Theo, if he can make this deal without losing Ellsbury AND Bucholtz, then you make it and make it today......


I would hate to see Ellsbury go, and I don't think I can watch COco try to hit for another year. Keep Ellsbury and put him in Centerfield and at the top of your lineup for the next ten years at least!!!

2008 Sox lineup

Ellsbury CF
Pedroria 2B
Ortiz DH
Ramirez LF
Yukalis 1B
Lowell 3B
Drew RF
Varitek C
Lugo SS

Rotation:
Beckett
Santana
Bucholtz
Schilling
Wakefield

 

[scout]

Latest update::

12/19/2007

http://www.twincities.com/walters

2008 Sox lineup

Ellsbury CF
Pedroria 2B
Ortiz DH
Ramirez LF
Yukalis 1B
Lowell 3B
Drew RF
Varitek C
Lugo SS

Rotation:
Beckett
Santana
Bucholtz
Schilling
Wakefield

Wow, can you say dynasty.
p.s. Paplebon closing.

 

[Boston Boxer]

Latest update::

12/19/2007

http://www.twincities.com/walters

The Boston Red Sox remain the favorite to acquire Johan Santana from the Twins, insiders say.

Boston remains firm, though, as initially reported by the Pioneer Press, in offering just Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson. The Red Sox are adamantly opposed to substituting Jacoby Ellsbury for Crisp, and that's the current holdup.

Regardless, there's buzz that the Santana trade could be made within days.

Boston has a larger pool of players who interest Minnesota and can contribute to the Twins immediately, whereas many of the New York Yankees' top prospects are at least a season or two away from succeeding in the major leagues. The Yankees remain firmly opposed to trading pitchers Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy together for Santana, and they certainly won't trade Joba Chamberlain.

The dark horse for Santana remains the Angels, who have enough young players to appease the Twins, but they have been quiet, much the same as they were before popping out of the weeds with a $90 million, five-year free-agent offer for Torii Hunter.

Good Job Theo, if he can make this deal without losing Ellsbury AND Bucholtz, then you make it and make it today......


I would hate to see Ellsbury go, and I don't think I can watch COco try to hit for another year. Keep Ellsbury and put him in Centerfield and at the top of your lineup for the next ten years at least!!!

2008 Sox lineup

Ellsbury CF
Pedroria 2B
Ortiz DH
Ramirez LF
Yukalis 1B
Lowell 3B
Drew RF
Varitek C
Lugo SS

Rotation:
Beckett
Santana
Bucholtz
Schilling
Wakefield

you forgot Dice-K

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

you forgot Dice-K

yeah, I knew when I was typing, I kept think I was forgetting someone!

So Schilling/Wakefield could split starts? The "resting" of Okajima did wonders last year, I'm guessing that they will give all their pitchers some additional rest.

 

[scout]

yeah, I knew when I was typing, I kept think I was forgetting someone!

So Schilling/Wakefield could split starts? The "resting" of Okajima did wonders last year, I'm guessing that they will give all their pitchers some additional rest.

Theo talked about doing that for this coming year so everyone would be fresh for the playoffs. OMG, Ted left out a gazillion $$$ pitcher that won game 3 of the world series, and hardly anyone noticed.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

The latest update doesn't mention the Ellsbury-Lowrie-Masterson deal, just that the Sox refuse to substitute Ellsbury for Coco (and therefore trade both Lester and Ellsbury). I wouldn't be surprised to see Minnesota decide they'd rather have Ellsbury than Lester+Coco, and last we heard that was in fact an option for them.

Basically, don't assume the Sox get Santana without trading Ellsbury because a Minnesota reporter failed to mention that possibility. We just know they won't get both Ellsbury and Lester.

 

[shakadave]

The latest update doesn't mention the Ellsbury-Lowrie-Masterson deal, just that the Sox refuse to substitute Ellsbury for Coco (and therefore trade both Lester and Ellsbury). I wouldn't be surprised to see Minnesota decide they'd rather have Ellsbury than Lester+Coco, and last we heard that was in fact an option for them.

Basically, don't assume the Sox get Santana without trading Ellsbury because a Minnesota reporter failed to mention that possibility. We just know they won't get both Ellsbury and Lester.

It's tempting to just wait a year, so we can get Santana as a free agent without throwing in a quality player like Ellsbury or Lester. I guess what I'm saying is, the Twins may be asking too much given that they have Santana signed for only one more year. (Then again, it IS Santana!)

 

[patriotspride]

It's tempting to just wait a year, so we can get Santana as a free agent without throwing in a quality player like Ellsbury or Lester. I guess what I'm saying is, the Twins may be asking too much given that they have Santana signed for only one more year. (Then again, it IS Santana!)

if the sox waited till santana was a free agent they would never get him the yankees would .

 

[Real World]

In a seven game series a pitcher only affects two games. A hitter affects all seven. I'm not saying hitters are more important, just that it's silly to write off the effects of a hitter because he isn't a pitcher.

Look at the 2004 Sox. Schilling and Foulke and Lowe were vital pitchers but the Sox don't come anywhere close to winning if Ortiz doesn't hit the way he did.

If pitching were all that mattered the Braves would have won more than one championship in the 90s.

You're logic is severely flawed. Pitching is the most valuable asset is baseball. Ortiz does nothing by himself. He only does what the people in front, or behind him, enable him to do. The reason why the Sox came back from a 3-0 deficit was because of pitching, and the fact that the Yankees didn't have anything close to an ace. Mussina was their best starting pitcher. Again, we'll agree to disagree I guess.

 

[Foley]

The Mets and Twins have agreed on a trade to send star pitcher Johan Santana to New York, SI.com has confirmed.

SI.com

The Twins really must have wanted Santana out of the AL, since pretty much every other rumored offer is better than this one. But still, this is the best scenario for everyone involved. Hopefully they can work out an extension quickly.

 

[patriotspride]

SI.com

The Twins really must have wanted Santana out of the AL, since pretty much every other rumored offer is better than this one. But still, this is the best scenario for everyone involved. Hopefully they can work out an extension quickly.

the Yankee's and the sox both reduced there offers .the latest Yankee offer didn't include Hughes .the twins screwed themselves .they should have taken the earlier offers back in December from the sox or the Yankee's .they got much less from the mets .

 

[patriotspride]

bump:bricks: :bricks: