Randy Moss - injured?

[Synovia]

That definition is incorrect, it has nothing to do with falling on the players legs.

A Horse Collar is a maneuver in which a defender tackles another player by grabbing the back-inside of an opponent's shoulder pads from behind and yanking the player down.

Yanking the player straight down and back. The real problem is that the tackler(Roy Williams) almost always lands on the players legs while pulling back and down on the shoulders.

 

[BrianPat]

Yanking the player straight down and back. The real problem is that the tackler(Roy Williams) almost always lands on the players legs while pulling back and down on the shoulders.

That may be true, but are far as the rule is defined, falling on the legs isn't required to break the rule, just makes it worse for the player being tackled.

 

[bresna]

That wasn't a Horse Collar tackle, he did grab him by his shoulder pads, but pushed Moss forward/sideways, didn't pull him down, which he would have had to do to have a Horse Collar tackle called.

The rule makes no exception for how the tackle was completed. The tackle was begun by the defender grabbing the back collar of the jersey (added to the rule for the 2007 season) or inside the shoulder pads. That's a horse-collar tackle. Nowhere does it say the player needs to be dragged down that way. A facemask penalty is called once it occurs. It doesn't have to be the reason a player was brought down.

Besides, my whole point here is that with Moss's already bad back, this tackle could not have felt good. All the tackler's weight, no matter if it was even for a small period of time, was concentrated down Randy's back. That just has to hurt.

 

[bresna]

I tried grabbing a screen shot and if this comes out, you can clearly see that without the horse-collar, the defender is not going to get Randy out of bounds. You can also see (I hope) that all of the defender's weight is on Randy's shoudlers at this point. Both of the defender's feet are off the ground.

 

[bresna]

More screen shots - look at Randy's back. It's clear that it's getting pulled backwards.

 

[Batman]

What I noticed in the warm up and practice was moss was not stretching for any balls at all he only caught 3 of the passes his way no matter who threw them if they we not in the basket they he didn't go for it I said at the time he looked hurt.

 

[Synovia]

The rule makes no exception for how the tackle was completed. T

Yeah, actually, it specifically does.

from Wiki:

The ban states that a horse-collar tackle is an open-field tackle in which a defender uses the shoulder pads or jersey to immediately bring a ball carrier down. The term "open field" means that horse-collar tackles committed near the line of scrimmage will be allowed; in addition, the stipulation of "immediately bringing the ball carrier down" means that, if a defender begins to bring a player down by the shoulder pads but lets go before the tackle is completed, he will not be penalized

 

[bresna]

I believe that Wiki rule is the college rule, not the NFL rule. Besides, look at the replay - he "brings down" Moss after pulling back on his shoulder pads from behind. If he had let go, Moss doesn't go down!

 

[Synovia]

I believe that Wiki rule is the college rule, not the NFL rule. Besides, look at the replay - he "brings down" Moss after pulling back on his shoulder pads from behind. If he had let go, Moss doesn't go down!

You can see clearly in said Replay that hes pulling him down to the side, and not straight back, hence, no horsecollar.

 

[bresna]

You can see clearly in said Replay that hes pulling him down to the side, and not straight back, hence, no horsecollar.

You must be looking at a different picture. In the pictures above, the defender is clearly pulling him down FROM BEHIND. He's not BESIDE Moss until Moss is on his rear end.

Moss was tackled from behind by his collar. That's a penalty.

 

[Synovia]

Moss was tackled from behind by his collar. That's a penalty.

Clearly, seeing how a line judge was about 6 feet away, its not.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Refs are getting worse every year, and yesterday's crew was a prefect example. There is supposed to be a focus for officials on offensive holding this year, yet Vince Wilfork practically has his shirt ripped off on just about every passing play, and half the runs, yet it's hardly been called all year. It's pretty clear that NFL officiating has an agenda, and it sucks ballz, big time.

At first glance it looked like a horse-collar, but I changed my opinon after seeing the replay (I think they showed it slow motion during the game). It appears as though he slowed him down a bit by grabbing the back of the jersey without actually pulling him down by it. Then he sort of pushed him to the ground. It was borderline, and certainly could have been called, but I'm not convinced that the call was incorrect.

Horrible calls. There were some late hits against the Patriots that were not called either. Something has to be done about the late hit; they result in a lot of injuries.

 

[Metaphors]

The rule makes no exception for how the tackle was completed. The tackle was begun by the defender grabbing the back collar of the jersey (added to the rule for the 2007 season) or inside the shoulder pads. That's a horse-collar tackle. Nowhere does it say the player needs to be dragged down that way. A facemask penalty is called once it occurs. It doesn't have to be the reason a player was brought down.

Here is the rule from a couple of years back. Don't have a more recent reference so it may have been revised (my emphasis added):

grabbing the inside collar of the back of the shoulder pads or jersey, or the inside collar of the side of the shoulder pads or jersey, and immediately pulling down the runner. This does not apply to a runner who is in the tackle box or to a quarterback who is in the pocket.

I don't claim to know the context of "immediately" or "pulling down", but it does say to me that just grabbing the jersey/pads collar isn't enough to draw a penalty.

When in doubt, I tend to just look at the words themselves. "Immediately" tells me that the suddenness of bringing down the player is a factor. "Pulling down" gives us a directional clue. If the tackle seems to have a "horizontal" component and not just crushing a players under his own weight (and potentially yours), it probably shouldn't be a penalty.

Based on my interpretation, that tackle was clearly not a horse collar. Not "immediate" and not "pulling down" (more of a sideways). I also agree with other posters that the intent of the rule is to prevent a defender from latching on and falling to the turf, causing the runner's knees and ankles to explode under the combined weight and sudden downward force.

 

[shakadave]

Re: Randy Moss

Id rather see him drop to the ground and stay healthy in the easy win then see him fighting for yards against a young team that may tackle him awkwardly or go head down on him and then he gets injured....... we have yac guys like welker for a reason!

Absolutely agree! It's usually much more important to avoid injury than to get YAC. Plus there usually aren't many potential YAC left by the time a receiver goes down.

Also, in Sunday's game it appeared that Moss got drilled long after he went down. I was sure there'd be a flag for a late hit, but none came. Moss walked off looking like his left arm was brutalized. Then the later hit that "officially" injured him didn't even seem as bad as the first. He looked a little worried late in the game on the sideline --- hopefully nothing too serious!