Raiders willing to trade Asomugha

[RobertWeathers]

Sanchez:
14/22 163 yards 1 TD 0 INT
08/21 136 yards 1 TD 4 INT

Henne:
19/34 219 yards 0 TD 0 INT
29/52 335 yards 2 TD 1 INT

Fitzpatrick:
17/25 178 yards 1 TD 1 INT

Moore:
15/30 197 yards 1 TD 0 INT


I don't see any "destroying" going on...

Henne in the 2nd 1/2 in Miami was immense.

But to your point, the Pats handled young QBs fine last year.

 

[SyN65]

Sanchez:
14/22 163 yards 1 TD 0 INT
08/21 136 yards 1 TD 4 INT

Henne:
19/34 219 yards 0 TD 0 INT
29/52 335 yards 2 TD 1 INT

Fitzpatrick:
17/25 178 yards 1 TD 1 INT

Moore:
15/30 197 yards 1 TD 0 INT


I don't see any "destroying" going on...

Sanchez:

14/22 163 yds 1 TD in your second start ever is pretty good.

In his second game we destroyed him though.

Henne:

19/34 219 yards 0 TD 0 INT
29/52 335 yards 2 TD 1 INT

Those stats aren't bad. I remember Henne passing on us pretty easily and he made some big conversions when he needed to.

Fitzpatrick:

17/25 178 yards 1 TD 1 INT

I don't really remember how that game went but I added him anyways. It isn't a terrible stat line though.

Moore:

15/30 197 yards 1 TD 0 INT

I also remember Moore passing on us pretty easily. He made some pretty big throws including a TD to Smith (I think?). Wasn't it his second or third start as well?


The point is we had some QB's with little to no experience come in and pass on us a lot easier than they should have. None of them destroyed us but they looked decent. I specifically remember Henne/Moore having pretty good games.

 

[furry]

Sanchez:
14/22 163 yards 1 TD 0 INT
08/21 136 yards 1 TD 4 INT

Henne:
19/34 219 yards 0 TD 0 INT
29/52 335 yards 2 TD 1 INT

Fitzpatrick:
17/25 178 yards 1 TD 1 INT

Moore:
15/30 197 yards 1 TD 0 INT


I don't see any "destroying" going on...

I disagree.

If you're happy to simply look at the stats and not the games then yeah, I think we will

 

[emoney_33]

He said they "destroyed" us, I never said we destroyed them...

 

[furry]

He said they "destroyed" us, I never said we destroyed them...

Destroyed, torched, lit up, call it what you will. Don't let one word detract from the fact that some average QBs were able to connect at will against us. Some of it was scheme, a lot of it was coverage imo

If you were today offered the choice of any two out of VW, NA and Peppers for example, would you pick Vince and another because I wouldn't. I'd have coverage and pass rush every time of the week

All of this is academic of course as we won't spend the money on Nnamdi

 

[emoney_33]

Destroyed, torched, lit up, call it what you will. Don't let one word detract from the fact that some average QBs were able to connect at will against us.

That's the point, they weren't able to connect at will against us, as I have FACTUALLY pointed out.

If you were today offered the choice of any two out of VW, NA and Peppers for example, would you pick Vince and another because I wouldn't. I'd have coverage and pass rush every time of the week

VW and Asomugha easily.

In the end it doesn't matter what YOU would rather, or what style of defense YOU would run, or how YOU would build a team. Wilfork is more important to BB's defense than any CB.

 

[Deus Irae]

Destroyed, torched, lit up, call it what you will. Don't let one word detract from the fact that some average QBs were able to connect at will against us. Some of it was scheme, a lot of it was coverage imo

If you were today offered the choice of any two out of VW, NA and Peppers for example, would you pick Vince and another because I wouldn't. I'd have coverage and pass rush every time of the week

All of this is academic of course as we won't spend the money on Nnamdi

Throwing is irrelevant if teams can run the ball down your throat. Just ask the Chiefs, Bills and Bucs about that.

 

[furry]

That's the point, they weren't able to connect at will against us, as I have FACTUALLY pointed out.



VW and Asomugha easily.

In the end it doesn't matter what YOU would rather, or what style of defense YOU would run, or how YOU would build a team. Wilfork is more important to BB's defense than any CB.

Well lets just shut down all debate on the board until BB lets us shall we.

And what does it take for somebody to have a good day? As you said yourself Manning went for 377 against the Jets but only connected 26 of 39. Was he poor that day?

Henne, Flaco esp at Foxborough in the first game where Mason dropped a gift, Orton in Denver, all these guys moved against us at will. Just because they didn't manage to win the game doesn't mean it's not a clear problem that needs addressed. If you can't see that it's because you don't want to see that. Stats don't always tell the whole story

 

[furry]

Throwing is irrelevant if teams can run the ball down your throat. Just ask the Chiefs, Bills and Bucs about that.

Yes, I agree.

However I don't think we need VW to guarantee that teams won't do that against us.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes, I agree.

However I don't think we need VW to guarantee that teams won't do that against us.

Even with Wilfork, the Ravens stuffed it down the team's throat in the playoffs. What do you think will happen if you've got Wright on the nose and Green on the end, while being backed up by Mayo and Guyton in the middle?

Teams might not even line up with a quarterback.

 

[emoney_33]

Well lets just shut down all debate on the board until BB lets us shall we.

This makes no sense to me? No CB has gotten big money in BB's system, we have won with replacement/young CBs, and the front 7 has always been the major focus.

And what does it take for somebody to have a good day? As you said yourself Manning went for 377 against the Jets but only connected 26 of 39. Was he poor that day?

26/39 is 67% which is higher than his career average, and right around where he is in his best years (2009 being his best at 68.8). The QBs you talked about didn't have terrible games, but they did NOT light us up either. Our defense was wildly inconsistent this season as expected with all the youth and loss of veterans.

Henne, Flaco esp at Foxborough in the first game where Mason dropped a gift, Orton in Denver, all these guys moved against us at will. Just because they didn't manage to win the game doesn't mean it's not a clear problem that needs addressed. If you can't see that it's because you don't want to see that. Stats don't always tell the whole story

"moved at will" is your exaggeration but yes the defense as a WHOLE (run and pass) was not very good this year and was inconsistent. This was expected from the start of the season after losing so many veterans and having to rely on so much youth and inexperience. Any additional dominant player at any position would have helped, but you act as if our lack of a shutdown beast is the single biggest reason we had a poor year. 2009 with Asomugha replacing Wilfork would have been a worse defense. You can argue that until your blue in the face, but I'm pretty confident BB would agree with me.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Last year we all know AL kicked the tires with vince.also looking at what he got for burgess a bum of a DE/OLB .

how about one 1st and one 2nd with vince thrown in.

Try a Vince with a second thrown in. I wouldnt trade a 1st, 2nd and the best NT in the game for Nnamdi and the Pats hopefully wouldnt either.

 

[RobertWeathers]

This makes no sense to me? No CB has gotten big money in BB's system, we have won with replacement/young CBs, and the front 7 has always been the major focus.

Not quite true, emoney. BB kept Ty and his big cap numbers around for 4 years. He also shelled out big bucks to Asante for the tag year. Poole's was 4yr-$8m and pricey year 1. BB does value good quality cover guys no question. Does he think he can win w/o them. Of course.

 

[furry]

This makes no sense to me? No CB has gotten big money in BB's system, we have won with replacement/young CBs, and the front 7 has always been the major focus.

Not sure I would call Law, Milloy, Harrison replacements, Samuel. And we all know Samuel should have been paid, but I take your point on the money. Still, spending on the front 7, Green for example, hasn't always been the best use of cap has it



26/39 is 67% which is higher than his career average, and right around where he is in his best years (2009 being his best at 68.8). The QBs you talked about didn't have terrible games, but they did NOT light us up either. Our defense was wildly inconsistent this season as expected with all the youth and loss of veterans.

And adding a quality player of Nnamdi's ability would then be a bad thing why?



"moved at will" is your exaggeration but yes the defense as a WHOLE (run and pass) was not very good this year and was inconsistent. This was expected from the start of the season after losing so many veterans and having to rely on so much youth and inexperience. Any additional dominant player at any position would have helped, but you act as if our lack of a shutdown beast is the single biggest reason we had a poor year. 2009 with Asomugha replacing Wilfork would have been a worse defense. You can argue that until your blue in the face, but I'm pretty confident BB would agree with me.

I'm not arguing that at all, I'm simply saying that my opinion is that I'd rather spend the big big money on impact. I believe he brings more impact than Vince. Brace may not yet be a bust, Pryor looks like he has something to him, Wright had a good year. Are any of them Vince? Nope, course not, but with run stopping behind in Mayo and Guyton / McKenzie if he's the player they think he'll be when they drafted him, and the addition of pass rush I'd loose Vince for better top drawer coverage.

 

[emoney_33]

Not quite true, emoney. BB kept Ty and his big cap numbers around for 4 years. He also shelled out big bucks to Asante for the tag year. BB does value good cover guys no question. Does he think he can win w/o them. Of course.

Kept around and one year franchise tag is not quite what I was talking about. Of course there is value to cover guys and I'm sure BB would absolutely love a revis/asomugha type. But my point is that having high talent in the guys up front is -more- important. Or maybe BB doesn't agree with me and top talent CBs are just too higly priced. I still don't think trading Wilfork for Asomugha would make the defense better unless someone like Brace had a high chance of replacing Wilfork at a high level.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'm not arguing that at all, I'm simply saying that my opinion is that I'd rather spend the big big money on impact. I believe he brings more impact than Vince. Brace may not yet be a bust, Pryor looks like he has something to him, Wright had a good year. Are any of them Vince? Nope, course not, but with run stopping behind in Mayo and Guyton / McKenzie if he's the player they think he'll be when they drafted him, and the addition of pass rush I'd loose Vince for better top drawer coverage.

I'm all for NA coming here but the problem is that with the exception of Warren, if VW leaves there isn't proven DTs or LBs on this team that are stout vs the run.

I'd feel better about getting him if we had more proven options in the run D dept.

 

[emoney_33]

Not sure I would call Law, Milloy, Harrison replacements, Samuel. And we all know Samuel should have been paid, but I take your point on the money. Still, spending on the front 7, Green for example, hasn't always been the best use of cap has it

Milloy was gone before the '03 season, Law missed most of 04 including the entire playoffs, Samuel was pretty mediocre and not even close to a high level CB in 03/04.

Do you remember our playoff CBs in the 04 playoffs? Put that type of replacements on the DL and you are done for. There is a reason BB pays the DL so well, including the role players.

Green has been a very good role player for us throughout his career here and worth his $4M cap hit.

And adding a quality player of Nnamdi's ability would then be a bad thing why?

I would love Asomugha, but not at the expense of Wilfork unless we had a replacement NT that could play close to his high level.

I'm not arguing that at all, I'm simply saying that my opinion is that I'd rather spend the big big money on impact. I believe he brings more impact than Vince. Brace may not yet be a bust, Pryor looks like he has something to him, Wright had a good year. Are any of them Vince? Nope, course not, but with run stopping behind in Mayo and Guyton / McKenzie if he's the player they think he'll be when they drafted him, and the addition of pass rush I'd loose Vince for better top drawer coverage.

I agree Brace is clearly not a "bust", and anyone who labels a rookie a bust is out of their mind.

Depending on the type of player Brace can be in 2010 you may have a point, but it really depends. All else being equal an average-level replacement starting CB and Vince Wilfork will make for a better defense than an average-level replacement starting NT and Asomugha.

I still hope Bodden gets re-signed, Butler looks like a real keeper, and I expect Wilhite to continue to improve. Trading Vince right now is a very last-resort move and only if they feel like there is no way to come to a extension along with having a good probability of adequately replacing his production for 2010.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Not quite true, emoney. BB kept Ty and his big cap numbers around for 4 years. He also shelled out big bucks to Asante for the tag year. Poole's was 4yr-$8m and pricey year 1. BB does value good quality cover guys no question. Does he think he can win w/o them. Of course.

Bill had no choice on keeping Law at a high cap # because of his dead cap on a deal he didn't sign off on. However, bonus is sunk cost and Law only earned on average a little over $4M per between 2001 and 2004. Bill was prefectly willing to restructure his deal based on his getting $6M per for another 4 (which is what he ended up getting over the next 4 but that's another whole story). By 2006 with the cap exploding he was willing to pay Samuel that same $6M, and even to tag him for one year at $7.8M, but he was not willing to pay him $9-10M long term... Ty wanted the money remaining on his contract which I believe was $16M for 2 years. Bill wasn't willing to pay that, but he was willing to guarantee him that plus $8M more for 2 more years in a restructured deal...ergo $6M.

So he's never been willing to pay the big bucks for a CB. Even a borderline HOF one. And his offer to Ty was pre injury...

 

[furry]

Milloy was gone before the '03 season, Law missed most of 04 including the entire playoffs, Samuel was pretty mediocre and not even close to a high level CB in 03/04.

Do you remember our playoff CBs in the 04 playoffs? Put that type of replacements on the DL and you are done for. There is a reason BB pays the DL so well, including the role players.

Green has been a very good role player for us throughout his career here and worth his $4M cap hit.



I would love Asomugha, but not at the expense of Wilfork unless we had a replacement NT that could play close to his high level.



I agree Brace is clearly not a "bust", and anyone who labels a rookie a bust is out of their mind.

Depending on the type of player Brace can be in 2010 you may have a point, but it really depends. All else being equal an average-level replacement starting CB and Vince Wilfork will make for a better defense than an average-level replacement starting NT and Asomugha.

I still hope Bodden gets re-signed, Butler looks like a real keeper, and I expect Wilhite to continue to improve. Trading Vince right now is a very last-resort move and only if they feel like there is no way to come to a extension along with having a good probability of adequately replacing his production for 2010.

I agree on Bodden as if we loose him really what else is there?! Butler looks promising and I hope he continues to develop into more than a 3rd string / nickel corner, Wilhite not so sure. Really not sure.

Ultimately we differ on the Elite CB Solid NT v Elite NT Solid CB argument and I don't think we'll settle it. Good debate though, and hopefully from my opinion at least something BB should consider this summer as I get the feeling Vince wants a lot more than we are willing to pay so with all the cap cutting I expect to see across the league and after the creaking bend not break defense of last season, now would be the time to consider the total overhaul.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Bill had no choice on keeping Law at a high cap # because of his dead cap on a deal he didn't sign off on.

BB was willing to cut Law in 2000 and eat the cap charge if Ty looked like poop. He didn't and kept him.

However, bonus is sunk cost and Law only earned on average a little over $4M per between 2001 and 2004. Bill was prefectly willing to restructure his deal based on his getting $6M per for another 4 (which is what he ended up getting over the next 4 but that's another whole story). By 2006 with the cap exploding he was willing to pay Samuel that same $6M, and even to tag him for one year at $7.8M, but he was not willing to pay him $9-10M long term...

My point is that he still paid him. If he thought Asante was not worth 7.8m he would not have paid him. I know Bill was loading up for 07 but he still paid him for the 1 year. Either way, $6m per/yr for Asante is top money for a CB regardless.

Ty wanted the money remaining on his contract which I believe was $16M for 2 years. Bill wasn't willing to pay that, but he was willing to guarantee him that plus $8M more for 2 more years in a restructured deal...ergo $6M..

Yep. I heard the same thing.

So he's never been willing to pay the big bucks for a CB. Even a borderline HOF one. And his offer to Ty was pre injury...

I respectfully disagree, Mo.