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Pope Francis says Atheists Can Be saved..


Well, if ************ is God and grace is his gift to us, wouldn't it make sense that grace would move us to ************?

Why would the grace of ************ move someone's heart away from ************?

Grace will never move us away from ************.

So that Muslim may be given that grace...but that grace will not push them to Islam and away from Catholicism.

So yes......not all faiths are created equal. God's grace will always move people to faith in ************ and the Roman Catholic church insofar as it is possible and the person cooperates with God's grace.

Sounds a tad orwellian to this casual viewer..

Can never understand how any person can have the audacity to say one person's faith and beliefs are better than the others..

Nothing is absolute.... Gods Grace means nothing if you do not have free will.

These are the elitist views that have isolated the Catholic Church, and driven many folks away..
 
Well, if ************ is God and grace is his gift to us, wouldn't it make sense that grace would move us to ************?

Why would the grace of ************ move someone's heart away from ************?

Grace will never move us away from ************.

So that Muslim may be given that grace...but that grace will not push them to Islam and away from Catholicism.

So yes......not all faiths are created equal. God's grace will always move people to faith in ************ and the Roman Catholic church insofar as it is possible and the person cooperates with God's grace.
So is Salvation possible without joing the Catholic Church?
 
It sounds as if it is, by the internal logic of the teachings RI is going by.

For example, if you are a Muslim who takes Islam as the faith he's born into, and has a spiritual awakening to be truly concerned with the many works mentioned in the same passage -- for example -- and, as a kicker, gets all wrapped up in many aspects of Islam including heightened reverence for Jesus as a prophet, if not worship of Jesus as God, then that Muslim is closer to what the Catholic Church would have him be, although he is an adherent of another religion.

Similarly, as Francis implies, if an atheist who is not doing good has a spiritual awakening and now is doing good, that too is grace, and the Atheist has accepted God's grace. To the Church, he could appear more Catholic, while to him, he may just feel he his doing more good.

That seems entirely consistent both with what Francis says and with what RI says.

But of course RI can explain for himself -- that's just what it looks like from the last couple of answers here.

PFnV
 
Evangelicals teach that children who ask questions are bad, children who dont ask questions are bad, all people are bad, nobody is good, only God is good, you deserve death, so dont question, be obediant, do as the leadership says, become a member,pay your tithes, dont question, and shut up, and God loves you

Yeah, people like that may call themselves Evangelical, but it is unlikely that they are having much success evangelizing with that approach.
 
Sounds a tad orwellian to this casual viewer..

Can never understand how any person can have the audacity to say one person's faith and beliefs are better than the others..

Nothing is absolute.... Gods Grace means nothing if you do not have free will.

These are the elitist views that have isolated the Catholic Church, and driven many folks away..


I said that all faiths are not created equal....which is true. The reality is that religions contradict each other. So not every religion can be right.

The Catholic church believes it was given, through revelation, the source of all truth that leads to salvation as well as morality. Also, it believes that it was given the authority and power to interpret this revelation....infallibly.
It also believes that it has the right to speak on morals everywhere and for all time and to make judgements on what all people do.


75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32

85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of ************."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48


2032 The Church, the "pillar and bulwark of the truth," "has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth."74 "To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls."75



2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.77


Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Church, Mother and Teacher


Well of course these teachings are going to drive people away. They're just too hard for some people who want to crave out their God in their own image. But the Lord of lords doesn't bargain with the truth even when people refuse to follow him anymore.



On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you?
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.
Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

-John 6: 60-62, 66-68

http://biblehub.com/niv/john/6-68.htm
 
Of course. The trick is to be able to say "Your faith is wrong. However, while so proclaiming within my church, my religion accepts and embraces you by our own standards." I think Francis is doing this.

Even if, as all who are not in your church recognize, his (and your) religion is wrong. :)

This applies equally to all religions. The fact that Francis recognizes this is a sign of great enlightenment on his part.
 
Of course. The trick is to be able to say "Your faith is wrong. However, while so proclaiming within my church, my religion accepts and embraces you by our own standards." I think Francis is doing this.

Even if, as all who are not in your church recognize, his (and your) religion is wrong. :)

This applies equally to all religions. The fact that Francis recognizes this is a sign of great enlightenment on his part.


I don't think he's doing that at all. I don't think he's saying that his religion embraces you "by your own standards". I think he would be very much opposed to "standards" that were contrary to the Catholic faith. I think what he's saying is that let's find common ground.....that common ground being doing good.
Ultimately this common ground "good" would have to be consistent with Catholic church teaching.
 
Right, from the point of view of the provincial interests of the Catholic church, which he would have to hold to be universal.

Of course, in encouraging the part of Catholicism which is universal, and meets definitions of doing good among all of humanity, I could claim he's being more Jewish. It's not Francis who must believe that the universality of good trumps his Church's claims -- although I would wager that he personally harbors views distressingly close to this -- it's the objective observer who can clearly see what's going on.

He's actually got a firm footing in the church doctrine you were copying and pasting to extend the idea of grace beyond the narrow confines of this or that doctrinal claim. It's right there in the doctrine; grace can come to anybody, and anybody can accept it -- and those things that Catholicism claims as part of Catholicism, which are also part of other religions and the atheist's conscience, can be ascribed to having "a little Catholic in them" for the Church apologists.

Presto! Atheists might be eligible for all the goodies!

I like what Francis is doing here.

PFnV
 
Right, from the point of view of the provincial interests of the Catholic church, which he would have to hold to be universal.

Of course, in encouraging the part of Catholicism which is universal, and meets definitions of doing good among all of humanity, I could claim he's being more Jewish. It's not Francis who must believe that the universality of good trumps his Church's claims -- although I would wager that he personally harbors views distressingly close to this -- it's the objective observer who can clearly see what's going on.

He's actually got a firm footing in the church doctrine you were copying and pasting to extend the idea of grace beyond the narrow confines of this or that doctrinal claim. It's right there in the doctrine; grace can come to anybody, and anybody can accept it -- and those things that Catholicism claims as part of Catholicism, which are also part of other religions and the atheist's conscience, can be ascribed to having "a little Catholic in them" for the Church apologists.

Presto! Atheists might be eligible for all the goodies!

I like what Francis is doing here.

PFnV



Well, what Francis was talking about was redemption....not salvation. Big difference.

As for grace.....yes, all can receive grace but they have to be open to it. If I'm an atheist, can I be open to the sanctifying grace of God if I reject even the existence of God? I don't see how thats possible.

I do believe that it is very possible that an atheist can receive God's actual grace which moves us to accept sanctifying grace. So that "good" that the atheist does, can be a gateway for actual grace in the life of the atheist.
 
So....the athiest should do good(assuming he/she is not), so that he/she can earn grace(which you cant)....and get the favor of God (which he/she doesnt believe in)
Now who could argue with THAT?
 
I said that all faiths are not created equal....which is true. The reality is that religions contradict each other. So not every religion can be right.

The Catholic church believes it was given, through revelation, the source of all truth that leads to salvation as well as morality. Also, it believes that it was given the authority and power to interpret this revelation....infallibly.
It also believes that it has the right to speak on morals everywhere and for all time and to make judgements on what all people do.

As do the Mormons and many other religions, nobody is right if everybody is wrong..

The attitude that the Catholic Church is the only way for salvation, is a faulty reasoning.. as many folks have never been exposed to the Catholic Church, and through no fault of their own can still attain salvation..

This whole heaven and hell thing is visual imagery to show the difference between good and bad, so if an atheist, agnostic or member of a religion other than the catholic church, has lived by the "Golden Rule" their whole lives means they cannot be "saved"..... I don't think so.

The Catholic Church is not morally superior to the other religions, they are on equal footing.. and to think otherwise if folly.
 
LOL Lifer... Again, you'll notice that Fracis' language isn't RI's language, or the catechism's language. Basically he said "you believe what you believe, I'll believe what I believe, I'll meet you at the soup kitchen." For all practical purposes he's acknowledging that the atheist doesn't believe in God, and can do good. (no quotation marks.)

RI, in what you're saying, you're assuming God is a noun. We're limited by our very language in description of God -- although perhaps that does not square with the catechism.

If God is a verb, to use an in-vogue cliche to describe the difference, it's the unfolding of good in the world we should be concerned with. As the Church says, when we partake in that we partake in God. (Or "accept God's grace" if you prefer.)

Question is whether God's an egotist, and puts up a banner saying "This is my people, this is the side I'm on," or not. Judaism has the same stumbling block, if you're stupid enough to get wrapped up in the tribalism.

Seems to me he literally doesn't give a damn over that. But then again, we each make him in our image. I know that the standard egotistical conception of God limits him to perceptions and behaviors common to children and dictators... I don't like doing that, because my own view is that I've surpassed such behavior in my own personal life, and that -- even if all-powerful -- God would be more morally upright than that.
 
As do the Mormons and many other religions, nobody is right if everybody is wrong..

The attitude that the Catholic Church is the only way for salvation, is a faulty reasoning.. as many folks have never been exposed to the Catholic Church, and through no fault of their own can still attain salvation..

This whole heaven and hell thing is visual imagery to show the difference between good and bad, so if an atheist, agnostic or member of a religion other than the catholic church, has lived by the "Golden Rule" their whole lives means they cannot be "saved"..... I don't think so.

The Catholic Church is not morally superior to the other religions, they are on equal footing.. and to think otherwise if folly.


Just because someone may think someone is wrong doesn't make them wrong. Someone could, in fact, be right. I stand by ************ and the Apostles.

The Catholic church is the only way to salvation. That being said, I detailed in this thread that are those who throuugh no fault of their own can be saved and not recognize the Catholic church.

As much as your UU friends will tell you otherwise, there is a heaven and a hell and even worse.....a God......who tells us what is right and wrong and judges us accordingly.
 
LOL Lifer... Again, you'll notice that Fracis' language isn't RI's language, or the catechism's language. Basically he said "you believe what you believe, I'll believe what I believe, I'll meet you at the soup kitchen." For all practical purposes he's acknowledging that the atheist doesn't believe in God, and can do good. (no quotation marks.)

RI, in what you're saying, you're assuming God is a noun. We're limited by our very language in description of God -- although perhaps that does not square with the catechism.

If God is a verb, to use an in-vogue cliche to describe the difference, it's the unfolding of good in the world we should be concerned with. As the Church says, when we partake in that we partake in God. (Or "accept God's grace" if you prefer.)

Question is whether God's an egotist, and puts up a banner saying "This is my people, this is the side I'm on," or not. Judaism has the same stumbling block, if you're stupid enough to get wrapped up in the tribalism.

Seems to me he literally doesn't give a damn over that. But then again, we each make him in our image. I know that the standard egotistical conception of God limits him to perceptions and behaviors common to children and dictators... I don't like doing that, because my own view is that I've surpassed such behavior in my own personal life, and that -- even if all-powerful -- God would be more morally upright than that.



I kinda doubt that the Pope of the Catholic church would doubt that God is a "noun" since the person of ************ is both fully God and fully man.

God's "banner" is the person of ************....his final word. His side is his own since he is perfect and without need of change. There is no need for egotism when you're perfect.

So the choice is not who's side God is on but whether we follow God's banner or not....are we on God's side or not.
 
Nothing quite as silly as a man putting words to what a God will do.

Especially an unfathomable God.

Regards
DL
 
Nothing quite as silly as a man putting words to what a God will do.

Especially an unfathomable God.

Regards
DL


That's the beauty of the Catholic church. They only consider something to be dogmatic unless it was revealed to them by God through the person of ************ or by God the Holy Spirit through the Apostles.
 
That's the beauty of the Catholic church. They only consider something to be dogmatic unless it was revealed to them by God through the person of ************ or by God the Holy Spirit through the Apostles.

Perhaps but they sure as hell do not follow the dictates of Jesus. He would flip out if he was real and not a Roman invention.

Regards
DL
 
Perhaps but they sure as hell do not follow the dictates of Jesus. He would flip out if he was real and not a Roman invention.

Regards
DL


I think we all fall short of the dictates of Jesus.

He wasn't a "Roman invention". I assume you are referring to Mithras. :rolleyes:
 
Could mean Sol Invictus, ya never know... Especially since Rome coopted Mithras from Persia (although early christians were somewhat vexed that the Persians also liked the communion scene with the bread and the cup and so on.)

Hey what are you guys doing for the Feast of Sol Invictus this Dec. 25?

That's also whaaa?

What are the chances!!!

:) We all borrow... and then our theologians go into paroxysms about how the other guy's stuff is a copy of ours... never mind that Gilgamesh pretty much did the Noah trip a few thousand years before the Torah!

As to God being a verb, don't take his word for it, but in the Torah when asked what he should be called, he answered "I am that I am." This is connected to the meaning of the tetragrammaton, with the third person masculine prefix yod preceding Heh-vav-heh, "Is." Alternately, the yod is sometimes construed as making the whole name the causative stem of the verb to be, making the name "causes to be" -- take your pick, whether you like all-encompassing omnipresence or creation as the verb in question.

But I forget who I'm talking to! You must know God and the Church very well, to answer so flippantly and so certainly that God must be a noun!

PFnV
 
PS, welcome, DL, haven't seen you around.
 


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