Polian takes swipe at Pats...

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Polian takes swipe at pats..

A real fan doesn't call "18-1" a waste because it didn't end in a Super Bowl. A real fan doesn't say "I don't want to remember that season" because it didn't end in a Super Bowl. A real fan appreciates that the players put their hearts out there, sacrificed blood, sweat and tears through 19 games to try to bring something special to this once moribund franchise.

A real fan can live with the ups and the downs, even if the downs are as heart-breaking as losing a perfect season, or going 0-16, or if the ups are barely beating the Goliath in the first Super Bowl of the decade.

I'm sick of the *****ing about 2007. Interpret my comments as bullying or judgmental or "aggressive", but I stand by this. It is offensive to say 2007 wasn't special just because it didn't end in a Super Bowl. And that's why I think it's a bandwagon position to poo-poo their achievement.

Because you know what? As much as you (HYPOTHETICAL "YOU") might have been hurt by the loss at the end of the season, it wasn't YOU who was out on the field that night and had his heart ripped out in front of millions. Next time you dismiss 2007, remember whose face you're really spitting in.

Gah, whatever.

um...that was actually...well...kind of...like...eloquent!

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Polian takes swipe at pats..

A real fan doesn't call "18-1" a waste because it didn't end in a Super Bowl. A real fan doesn't say "I don't want to remember that season" because it didn't end in a Super Bowl. A real fan appreciates that the players put their hearts out there, sacrificed blood, sweat and tears through 19 games to try to bring something special to this once moribund franchise.

A real fan can live with the ups and the downs, even if the downs are as heart-breaking as losing a perfect season, or going 0-16, or if the ups are barely beating the Goliath in the first Super Bowl of the decade.

I'm sick of the *****ing about 2007. Interpret my comments as bullying or judgmental or "aggressive", but I stand by this. It is offensive to say 2007 wasn't special just because it didn't end in a Super Bowl. And that's why I think it's a bandwagon position to poo-poo their achievement.

Because you know what? As much as you (HYPOTHETICAL "YOU") might have been hurt by the loss at the end of the season, it wasn't YOU who was out on the field that night and had his heart ripped out in front of millions. Next time you dismiss 2007, remember whose face you're really spitting in.

Gah, whatever.

A "real fan" can think whatever the hell they want about 2007 and 18-1. For some, it's a glorious example of what a team can do for 18 games, and the only 16-0 team in NFL history. For others, it's failing on the cusp of all-time greatness.

Both groups are correct, and both have valid points when distancing themselves from those who think differently. I fall on the "It was great" side and often end up defending the greatness of that team and season, but I don't go around questioning the fandom of someone just because he sees it differently.

 

[Joker]

it's failing on the cusp of all-time greatness.

yes...the officials FAILED to call in the grasp, not once but TWICE

and yes, the officials failed to call three blatant holds, one an outright tackle of a Patriots defensive player, committed right in plain sight of the line judge

 

[DaedalusX]

Re: Polian takes swipe at pats..

I fall on the "It was great" side and often end up defending the greatness of that team and season, but I don't go around questioning the fandom of someone just because he sees it differently.

I question the fandom of people who say the year was worthless because it amounts to spitting in the faces of everyone in the organization who put their heart and soul into it. I don't care if they see it no differently than all of the other years that didn't result in Super Bowls, but to dismiss it as something not worth remembering is disrespectful to what was done on their behalf.

It's like getting a $15k diamond ring that isn't sized right and telling your husband that it's worthless because it doesn't fit, try again next Christmas. How about showing a little gratitude and learning to move on from the downside?

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Polian takes swipe at pats..

I question the fandom of people who say the year was worthless because it amounts to spitting in the faces of everyone in the organization who put their heart and soul into it. I don't care if they see it no differently than all of the other years that didn't result in Super Bowls, but to dismiss it as something not worth remembering is disrespectful to what was done on their behalf.

It's like getting a $15k diamond ring that isn't sized right and telling your husband that it's worthless because it doesn't fit, try again next Christmas. How about showing a little gratitude and learning to move on from the downside?

The 2007 team, for all its greatness, took to the gas-pipe at the worst possible moment. You can blame injury, you can blame Tomase, you can blame Samuel, or you can just blame the fates. However, no matter who or what you blame, the end result is the same: overpowering disappointment which negates the entirety of the season for some.

And your analogy is inapplicable. 2007 wasn't a gift from a loving family member or friend. It was a football season that ended on an extremely sour note, nothing more.

 

[reflexblue]

Re: Polian takes swipe at pats..

How I look at fans*:

Fairweather fan - someone who roots for the winner, regardless of who it is

Bandwagon fan - someone who's a fan, but only roots when the team is playing well

Pink hat fan - someone who's into the experience of being a fan and there for the social benefits, rather than someone who's a devoted fan of the team.

Typical fan - someone who follows a team with varying levels of interest for reasons that go beyond wins and losses. They will frequently find other things to do when the team is struggling for an extended period of time, and they are the canaries in the coal mine when it comes to health of a sports league or team. The majority of fans fit into this category.

Hardcore fan - someone who follows a team through the ups and downs, with little difference in the level of passion over the long term. He/she may have huge issues with the team, but they'll put up with almost anything in the hope that the team will figure it out. A lot of Cubs fans fall in to this category, and Bruins fans fell into this categories for a long time, until they'd finally had enough.

Homer - someone who obsesses about his/her team, who generally can't accept any level of criticism of the team, and who's loyalty is really just to the idea of team. This is the sort of person who loves Asante Samuel until the very day he leaves the team, and then calls him names for the rest of his life.

*These are generalized categories, and there are many people that don't fall neatly into any of these categories. This is not intended to be an exhaustive breakdown.

Thats not bad...me=[Hardcore fan - someone who follows a team through the ups and downs, with little difference in the level of passion over the long term. He/she may have huge issues with the team, but they'll put up with almost anything in the hope that the team will figure it out.

 

[DaedalusX]

Re: Polian takes swipe at pats..

The 2007 team, for all its greatness, took to the gas-pipe at the worst possible moment. You can blame injury, you can blame Tomase, you can blame Samuel, or you can just blame the fates. However, no matter who or what you blame, the end result is the same: overpowering disappointment which negates the entirety of the season for some.

Just because some think it was worthless doesn't mean they are right to think that.

And your analogy is inapplicable. 2007 wasn't a gift from a loving family member or friend. It was a football season that ended on an extremely sour note, nothing more.

It is entirely applicable. And the argument has nothing to do with who the gift is from, it's that effort was put into a thing. To disregard the effort, no matter who from, if it was on your behalf is disrespectful. And if you suggest it isn't on your behalf, then you also can't take pride in the wins, so let's not go down that path.

 

[reflexblue]

Re: Polian takes swipe at pats..

How I look at fans*:

Fairweather fan - someone who roots for the winner, regardless of who it is

Bandwagon fan - someone who's a fan, but only roots when the team is playing well

Pink hat fan - someone who's into the experience of being a fan and there for the social benefits, rather than someone who's a devoted fan of the team.

Typical fan - someone who follows a team with varying levels of interest for reasons that go beyond wins and losses. They will frequently find other things to do when the team is struggling for an extended period of time, and they are the canaries in the coal mine when it comes to health of a sports league or team. The majority of fans fit into this category.

Hardcore fan - someone who follows a team through the ups and downs, with little difference in the level of passion over the long term. He/she may have huge issues with the team, but they'll put up with almost anything in the hope that the team will figure it out. A lot of Cubs fans fall in to this category, and Bruins fans fell into this categories for a long time, until they'd finally had enough.

Homer - someone who obsesses about his/her team, who generally can't accept any level of criticism of the team, and who's loyalty is really just to the idea of team. This is the sort of person who loves Asante Samuel until the very day he leaves the team, and then calls him names for the rest of his life.

*These are generalized categories, and there are many people that don't fall neatly into any of these categories. This is not intended to be an exhaustive breakdown.

Thats not bad..I guess i'd fall under Hardcore.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Polian takes swipe at pats..

Just because some think it was worthless doesn't mean they are right to think that.

Just because you think it wasn't worthless doesn't mean you are right to think that.

It is entirely applicable. And the argument has nothing to do with who the gift is from, it's that effort was put into a thing. To disregard the effort, no matter who from, if it was on your behalf is disrespectful. And if you suggest it isn't on your behalf, then you also can't take pride in the wins, so let's not go down that path.

No, it's not applicable at all. Someone gives you a gift out of love, desire, or a feeling of necessity/duty. The Patriots played football for money, with a side benefit of people witnessing the season. The reason we would call the person complaining about the ring ungrateful is because we make assumptions about the intent behind the giving, and because you made it an expensive ring.

Or, to put it another way, if a multi-millionaire gives you gifts worth thousands of dollars every weekend for months, and he then drops a $50 diamond from the Zales clearance bin on you at Christmas, a very common and understandable reaction on the part of the gift receiver is going to be bemused annoyance coupled with disgusted disappointment.

 

[DaedalusX]

Re: Polian takes swipe at pats..

Just because you think it wasn't worthless doesn't mean you are right to think that.

By definition, in sheer monetary value, it wasn't worthless. By definition, in sheer support and following, it wasn't worthless. Yes, I am right.

No, it's not applicable at all.

Yes, it is. You even pose a variant of it later to make your own point.

Someone gives you a gift out of love, desire, or a feeling of necessity/duty.

Quit with the strawman; the point of the metaphor wasn't the giver being a lover or whatever else, it was that something of value was given. Regardless of what value in total you evaluate it at, it was something material given that you are washing away as if it was worthless, which is inherently ungracious. This is basic logic and math.

The Patriots played football for money, with a side benefit of people witnessing the season.

And for their legacy. And for the fans. And for the owners. And for the city. And for their family. And for their friends. There are a lot of reasons.

The reason we would call the person complaining about the ring ungrateful is because we make assumptions about the intent behind the giving, and because you made it an expensive ring.

Yes, you prove my point.

Or, to put it another way, if a multi-millionaire gives you gifts worth thousands of dollars every weekend for months, and he then drops a $50 diamond from the Zales clearance bin on you at Christmas, a very common and understandable reaction on the part of the gift receiver is going to be bemused annoyance coupled with disgusted disappointment.

That $50 diamond doesn't negate the value, obviously, of the gifts up until that point. That's the whole point.

 

[Mountain_Commando]

Word of caution...you're on a slippery slope Daedalus.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Polian takes swipe at pats..

By definition, in sheer monetary value, it wasn't worthless. By definition, in sheer support and following, it wasn't worthless. Yes, I am right.

No, you're not. You're placing your personal values on things that have only the value given to them by the individual, and proclaiming them as objective realities. They aren't any such thing. And, there's no monetary value in following a team that takes a dump in the Super Bowl.

Yes, it is. You even pose a variant of it later to make your own point.

No, it isn't. My "variant" was simply showing that your example was not only inapplicable, but also inaccurate.

Quit with the strawman; the point of the metaphor wasn't the giver being a lover or whatever else, it was that something of value was given. Regardless of what value in total you evaluate it at, it was something material given that you are washing away as if it was worthless, which is inherently ungracious. This is basic logic and math.

It's not a strawman. Your analogy was lousy and I was trying to put it gently. There is no math or logic involved, because you're evaluating the worth of feelings. The notion of a gift is that of something given by one to another, with no intent other than demonstrating love, honor etc..., as opposed to football players playing football games because that's what they are getting paid to do, with victories in 18 straight being simply a by-product of the actual playing. Frankly, your position is untenable because you're demanding that everyone feel the same emotional return that you did, when you must know that's not going to happen.

And for their legacy. And for the fans. And for the owners. And for the city. And for their family. And for their friends. There are a lot of reasons.

People, at least most people, don't play professonal football for their city. They don't play football for their family. They don't play football for the owners, and they don't play football for their fans. They play football because they like the game, they like the money, they like the lifestyle, etc... The other aspects are side effects.

That $50 diamond doesn't negate the value, obviously, of the gifts up until that point. That's the whole point.

Except that your point is wrong. Once again, you're trying to use money as an exact equation to emotion. That's simply not valid.

To use an analogy that's as bad as yours, and far more hyperbolic:

If we spend 6 months feeding a kid and giving him all the comforts of home, and we then kill and eat the kid, should we be offended if the kid wasn't grateful for the food and shelter in the moments just before his death?

 

[DaedalusX]

Re: Polian takes swipe at pats..

No, you're not. You're placing your personal values on things that have only the value given to them by the individual, and proclaiming them as objective realities. They aren't any such thing. And, there's no monetary value in following a team that takes a dump in the Super Bowl.

Uh, yes there is. Ask the networks and the NFL. You're wrong.

No, it isn't. My "variant" was simply showing that your example was not only inapplicable, but also inaccurate.

No, you're lying.

It's not a strawman.

Yes, it is.

Your analogy was lousy and I was trying to put it gently. There is no math or logic involved, because you're evaluating the worth of feelings.

Wrong.

The notion of a gift is that of something given by one to another, with no intent other than demonstrating love, honor etc..., as opposed to football players playing football games because that's what they are getting paid to do, with victories in 18 straight being simply a by-product of the actual playing.

Frankly, your position is untenable because you're demanding that everyone feel the same emotional return that you did, when you must know that's not going to happen.

No, I'm not. I'm asking people to get over themselves and appreciate it for what it was, not huddle in a heap of sadness over it.

People, at least most people, don't play professonal football for their city. They don't play football for their family. They don't play football for the owners, and they don't play football for their fans. They play football because they like the game, they like the money, they like the lifestyle, etc... The other aspects are side effects.

Wrong. Especially the Patriots, who were effectively on a crusade that year.

Except that your point is wrong. Once again, you're trying to use money as an exact equation to emotion. That's simply not valid.

It's valid, you're just being obtuse.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Polian takes swipe at pats..

Uh, yes there is. Ask the networks and the NFL. You're wrong.

That "value" is nothing to a fan.

No, you're lying.

No, I'm not.

Yes, it is.

No, it's not. By definition, it's not.

Wrong.

No, it was correct.

No, I'm not. I'm asking people to get over themselves and appreciate it for what it was, not huddle in a heap of sadness over it.

No, you're 'asking' people to feel about it precisely as you do, and you're deriding their 'fandom' when they don't, which is asinine. That Super Bowl loss was a gut punch, and that people will have different reactions to such things is something to be expected and accepted, or at least understood.

Wrong. Especially the Patriots, who were effectively on a crusade that year.

That "crusade" has nothing to do with the value for the fans, and it has nothing to do with playing football for the city, family, etc... You're just throwing all sorts of crap against the wall and hoping it will stick.

It's valid, you're just being obtuse.

It's not valid at all. What's funny is that I love the 2007 season and wish people would look at it from a positive angle, just as you do, because the team accomplished something positive that had never been done before. I think it's sad that so many people have allowed the devastating ending to make them bitter about that season and, often, the subsequent seasons as well.

The problem arises is when you attack their fandom for not buying into your evaluation of the experience's value. At that point, you lose all credibility and just look like a clown.

 

[DaedalusX]

Re: Polian takes swipe at pats..

That "value" is nothing to a fan.

They're living vicariously, so it vicariously is.

No, I'm not.

K.

No, it's not. By definition, it's not.

Especially not by definition.

No, it was correct.

In your head maybe.

No, you're 'asking' people to feel about it precisely as you do,

Behave, not feel.

and you're deriding their 'fandom' when they don't, which is asinine.

I'm questioning the character of their fandom, if that goes down easier.

That Super Bowl loss was a gut punch, and that people will have different reactions to such things is something to be expected and accepted, or at least understood.

This is a separate point altogether.

That "crusade" has nothing to do with the value for the fans, and it has nothing to do with playing football for the city, family, etc... You're just throwing all sorts of crap against the wall and hoping it will stick.

My argument is quite focused, thank you.

It's not valid at all. What's funny is that I love the 2007 season and wish people would look at it from a positive angle, just as you do, because the team accomplished something positive that had never been done before.

Then let's hug and not bro-fight, since playing devil's advocate is lame.

I think it's sad that so many people have allowed the devastating ending to make them bitter about that season and, often, the subsequent seasons as well.

Me too.

The problem arises is when you attack their fandom for not buying into your evaluation of the experience's value.

No, it doesn't.

At that point, you lose all credibility and just look like a clown.

If the argument stood on its own before, then attempting to invalidate it based upon a non-sequitor is a fallacy.

 

[shmessy]

Polian is a fascinating psychological study. His inner turmoils seem to spawn turmoil externally. Everytime he pulls one of his "cries for help", threads result with some pretty interesting fistfights.

 

[Seacoast Fan]

Polian is a fascinating psychological study. His inner turmoils seem to spawn turmoil externally. Everytime he pulls one of his "cries for help", threads result with some pretty interesting fistfights.

Well, that is one word to describe the discourse above. I would pick a different one

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Re: Polian takes swipe at pats..

As most know, he is getting crushed in Indy...

Bill Polian called out by Colts fans on his call-in radio show, gets defensive, seemingly ends show early[UPDATED] - Stampede Blue

I really really hope that he gets driven out of town or retires. I am so sick of the Colts and their domination of the officials who almost never call holding on the OL. Peyton gets perfect protection; that's why he looks so great.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Meh. When the Pats were on their 18-1 run (GODDAMMIT) we had discussions here about resting starters, with at least a few in favor of it, and basically the argument was the same... what's more important, a shot at "ever", as Junior put it, or winning a SB? Of course we all said "both" because we're fans. I don't think there's any shame in Polian's decision. It's what the Colts have traditionally done. If it weren't for a natural "F-U" tendency against the ambient atmosphere of Patriot-hating in 07, I'm not even sure Belichick would have played Brady in the last game or 2. Who knows - water under the bridge.

Yeah NaPolian did seem to throw in some buried swipes against The Team of the Decade, but it's a defensive mechanism on 2 counts:

1) He was busy defending himself against the Colts faithful, so a swipe at the Pats was probably a good strategy on his part -- although obviously it did not do the trick. Colts fans wanted to go for it and he/Caldwell didn't... and there's no reconciling that, ultimately.

2) Obviously he's got the inferiority complex going for the whole "Team of the Decade" thing, having been pwned by the Pats in the first few years, then ecclipsed by the squeelers more recently. He's got a classic underachieving team that managed to win ONE super bowl during its heyday. The window's not closing just yet, but at the zenith of Harrison/Wayne/Manning/James[/Addai/Clark], well he managed to fail more often than not.

It's really really hard to win more than one super bowl, and his Colts have not been up to it as yet. They're an excellent team, and have been all decade. But there's a level there they haven't achieved and the Pats have. That said, as of right now our real glory years are behind us (actually I include 07 in that,) unless the Pats carry forward the momentum they're building against some relative cupcakes, when they get to the big boys in the playoffs.

I could definitely go for one more SB this year, just in a leave-no-doubt way Not giving up hope, but it really doesn't look like this is the year.

 

[bostonia3333]

Polian says losing the Super Bowl is worse than goin 2-14

Wow, worse than going 2-14? I think that deserves a C'MON man! These quotes are from the Polian Corner on the Colts website

The Official Website of the Indianapolis Colts


Q: The Patriots went 16-0 in 2007. They would trade that to have won the Super Bowl that season . . .

Polian: Of course they would. And the so-called pundits and experts denigrate their season. It's not the perfect season. The Miami Dolphins are the only 'perfect' team in the eyes of the pundits because they went all the way through to the Super Bowl. Winning the Super Bowl, whether you like it or don't like it, is the Holy Grail that has been set up by the pundits. In our sport, the loser of the Super Bowl – and I've been there plenty – is worse than a team that's 2-14 in the eyes of the pundits. That doesn't happen in any other sport. Michigan State is not considered a loser because they lost to North Carolina in the (NCAA men's basketball) championship game. Teams make it to the Final Four in basketball, it's considered a wonderful, marvelous season. IU (Indiana University) had a wonderful season when they made it to the Final Four. It's the crowning glory of any season. The runner-up in baseball, the loser in the World Series, is considered the league champion. They get rings. It is celebrated. They have a pennant to raise. Only in the Super Bowl, and I'll borrow this phrase from the late, great George Young, is it the Victor and the Vanquished. The vanquished is considered by the cognoscenti, if you will, to be less than a team that finished 2-14. That's just the way it is. We recognize that. Oftentimes we don't agree with it, but there's not a darned thing you can do about that. The point is that in our business in order to give our fans the most meaningful season they can and the most meaningful experience they can, we have to focus on getting a team ready to do as well as it can do in the playoffs. I can't predict how well we'll do. I certainly don't believe we are 'the best team in the National Football League.'That's to be determined. But we want to give our team the best chance to do that and that was our purpose. Perhaps I'm at fault for not articulating that in as much detail as I've just done now and perhaps not as loudly as I should have, but the fact of the matter is the records we have achieved – 23 straight, most wins in a decade, home-field advantage and sitting here 14-1 – that's a heck of a season by any measure, and they are records that I think will last a long time.