People Who Hold Out = Scum

[spacecrime]

You're probably a pretty piss-poor business man/woman. That's OK. Remember, the NFL is 1 huge business.

So because NSPF hates hold-outs he is a piss-poor business man?

This is the business model that has business men liking it when employees don't honor contracts?

Wonder which Robert Kraft is:

a) good businessman, likes the idea of his employees not honoring contracts

b) bad businessman, dislikes the idea of his employees not honoring contracts

 

[Krugman]

Good to see you back,NSPF,how did you make out after the fire?(Sorry if its old stuff)

 

[Welker83]

That's my personal opinion, I've ALWAYS hated hold outs, they're scum in my book. In any other business in the civilized world if you signed a contract and then didn't hold up your end of the bargain you'd get sued for breach of contract. Can some legal scholar explain to me why this isn't an option for these primadonnas?

I wish all GMs would act as the Ottawa Senator's GM acted with Alexei Yashin. They refused to trade him and he ended up sitting a whole year because they also refused to let him play for any other team. (he did practice with a team in Switzerland cuz you can't stop someone from practicing.)

Take a hard line is what I say, if all the GMs in all the sports decided they'd had enough and stopped negotiating with these scum the hold outs would stop pretty damn quick. I say if Branch or anyone else doesn't want to play for this team they can rot on the sidelines for all I care, I would be 1000% behind management.

Say you are die hard pats fan and you work your whole life to play football at the highest level. Then draft day comes and you are drafted by the cardinals... So how much loyalty do you have to them? You didn't grow up loving this team. So why should you sacrafice what you deserve to a team you have not followed and cried and bled for?

Currently there are three 1st round holdouts. 2 of them (fins, and eagles) are playing hardball w/ contract length(5 year contract please..Not SIX!). And the other (leinhart) is trying to still pretend he's the number 1 pick...

Compared to last year that pretty good....

 

[bucky]

So because NSPF hates hold-outs he is a piss-poor business man?

This is the business model that has business men liking it when employees don't honor contracts?

Wonder which Robert Kraft is:

a) good businessman, likes the idea of his employees not honoring contracts

b) bad businessman, dislikes the idea of his employees not honoring contracts

Spacecrime, why are you and I always butting heads? Every employee who engages in contract negotiation with his empoyed is a businessman. And in the NFL, holding out is part of doing business. Why? Because if Branch comes into camp and tears his ACL, he's not going to get a contract. If he holds out for 3 weeks, doesn't get a contract, and has to pay fines of $250K, that's part of doing business too.

You guys look at contract like it's the freakin 10 commandments. Contracts are renegotiated and broken in every business are all the time. That's just part of the cost of doing business. Obviously, the side that wants to renegotiate is taking a risk and has to have something to leverage their position.

 

[Michigan Dave]

So because NSPF hates hold-outs he is a piss-poor business man?

This is the business model that has business men liking it when employees don't honor contracts?

Wonder which Robert Kraft is:

a) good businessman, likes the idea of his employees not honoring contracts

b) bad businessman, dislikes the idea of his employees not honoring contracts

Robert Kraft needs Deion Branch more than Deion Branch needs Robert Kraft. That's why it's a business decision. That's why Branch can hold out. That's why Branch can maximize his earning potential. If Deion Branch suddenly started to suck, Robert Kraft could break the relationship and cut Deion Branch. It's a 2 way street negotiated by both the players and owners so that the relationship is mutually beneficial. Branch is at a time where he has leverage, and he's smart to use it. Kraft knows this.

 

[DaBruinz]

Seymour, Branch and Watson are all scums in that case! lets cut them all before they ever get a chancce to hold out again

I don't think that Watson is the scum in that case. I saw this because it was only a day or two after he dumped Condon that he signed with the Pats. In that case, it was Condon who was the issue, not Watson.

 

[NovaScotiaPatsFan]

NSPF, I've notice a hard edge to your post since your return.

I think it's awesome! I don't agree with this one but you are now not shying away from the "danger zone."

I've been around to many different forums lately, and have seen the worst that Humanity has to offer. In my younger, more naive days I used to think humans had a bright future. I no longer think this way, I mean I'm not perfect but I do have a sense of right and wrong, good and evil, that shockingly to me most people in the world don't have.

Each and every day for like the last year I've seen the stupidest, most idiotic people humanity has to offer and I find myself caring less and less about my fellow man. Not in the sense that I would do anything to lessen my own humanity, but just if something happens to them that didn't have anything to do with me I couldn't care less.

Like this war in Lebanon. People want to get evacuated now, but THEY CHOSE TO LIVE IN LEBANON!!! That's like me going to Iraq or Afghanistan or Somalia and then being suprised when s**t goes down. I mean people are you ******ed? If you're not willing to risk your life DON'T GO TO A PLACE LIKE LEBANON. Jesus, it'd be like me becoming a firefighter and then complaining when my life is put in danger. I just feel like the collective IQ of the human race falls every single day.

And this discussion has't helped either. Sure a few people grasp the basic concept I'm conveying, but the vast majority of responders in this thread think it's ok for someone to make a promise and then not do their best to live up to it. I mean doesn't anyone else find that horribly disturbing? Do you hear yourselves making excuses for these idiots?

"Oh well, it's ok because that's the way the business is and has always been."
So, we should just stop trying to make things better in the world?

"It's ok, because others have done it before."
Others have killed and raped children before, does that make it OK?

"He's underpaid."
The guy makes more money in a year than some of us will make in our entire f**king lives!!!

Bring on a comet or a meteor or something, the human race doesn't deserve to continue.

 

[DaBruinz]

Boy, you must of really lit into Bill Belichick and the Patriots last year when they violated the sanctity of Troy Brown's contract by cutting him! You must have just spared no mercy, considering Troy Brown has been the ultimate team guy and loyal Patriot, and the team just hacked off his contract.

If you didn't, then you shouldn't talk about the sanctity of contracts in the NFL. Players can get cut at any moment. Contracts mean nothing to the teams. But players are scum for exercising the one form of leverage they have?

First off, they didn't violate the sanctity of Brown's contract. It was a fake year, agreed upon by both parties. Brown knew he would never see that money. Just like Willie McGinest knew that the last year of his contract was a fake year.

BTW, the players are given GUARANTEED SIGNING BONUSES in lieu of a guaranteed contract.

So, how about you put things in perspective instead of tossing out the BS. It would make you look smarter at the very least.

 

[DaBruinz]

Wow. In a system such as the NFL, the holdout is necessary because it's the only leverage the player can have. There are some legit holdouts (Branch, for example, should be holding out. He needs a new deal. He is underpaid) and some ridiculous holdouts. It's a business, and needs to be looked at as such. The players have a small window to make as much money as possible, and then they are done. A guy like Deion holding out for a huge raise that frankly, he deserves, is fine by me. As long as he's on the field by week 1, I'm good. And if it means he gets signed to a longterm deal, I'm even better. You can't look at the NFL like any random 9-5 job.

I hear this garbage that Branch is underpaid and I have to laugh. How is he underpaid? He's only been healthy for 1 of 4 seasons. Never had more than 5 TDs in a season. And only had 1 season where he's come close to 1000 yards.

Sorry, but Branch should have his sorry, lying arse in camp SHOWING the Patriots why he is worth more than the 6.25 million a year that they offered him in the 3 year contract extension that guaranteed him 9.75 million. Then, if they didn't agree with him, he could WALK at the end of the year and make his millions then. Then the onus would be on the team for letting Branch walk.

Then come talk to me about how you think that HOLDING OUT is the only leverage that Branch has. The threat of him walking at the end of the year and leaving the Patriots without any real veterans should be a bigger threat than holding out this year.

 

[bucky]

I've been around to many different forums lately, and have seen the worst that Humanity has to offer. In my younger, more naive days I used to think humans had a bright future. I no longer think this way, I mean I'm not perfect but I do have a sense of right and wrong, good and evil, that shockingly to me most people in the world don't have.

Each and every day for like the last year I've seen the stupidest, most idiotic people humanity has to offer and I find myself caring less and less about my fellow man. Not in the sense that I would do anything to lessen my own humanity, but just if something happens to them that didn't have anything to do with me I couldn't care less.

Like this war in Lebanon. People want to get evacuated now, but THEY CHOSE TO LIVE IN LEBANON!!! That's like me going to Iraq or Afghanistan or Somalia and then being suprised when s**t goes down. I mean people are you ******ed? If you're not willing to risk your life DON'T GO TO A PLACE LIKE LEBANON. Jesus, it'd be like me becoming a firefighter and then complaining when my life is put in danger. I just feel like the collective IQ of the human race falls every single day.

And this discussion has't helped either. Sure a few people grasp the basic concept I'm conveying, but the vast majority of responders in this thread think it's ok for someone to make a promise and then not do their best to live up to it. I mean doesn't anyone else find that horribly disturbing? Do you hear yourselves making excuses for these idiots?

"Oh well, it's ok because that's the way the business is and has always been."
So, we should just stop trying to make things better in the world?

"It's ok, because others have done it before."
Others have killed and raped children before, does that make it OK?

"He's underpaid."
The guy makes more money in a year than some of us will make in our entire f**king lives!!!

Bring on a comet or a meteor or something, the human race doesn't deserve to continue.

I think your comparison of holding out to "killing and raping children" is right along the same lines as your conclusions about humanity based on your travel around "many different forums". You've got to get some fresh air.

 

[Michigan Dave]

And this discussion has't helped either. Sure a few people grasp the basic concept I'm conveying, but the vast majority of responders in this thread think it's ok for someone to make a promise and then not do their best to live up to it. I mean doesn't anyone else find that horribly disturbing? Do you hear yourselves making excuses for these idiots?

"Oh well, it's ok because that's the way the business is and has always been."
So, we should just stop trying to make things better in the world?

"It's ok, because others have done it before."
Others have killed and raped children before, does that make it OK?

"He's underpaid."
The guy makes more money in a year than some of us will make in our entire f**king lives!!!

Bring on a comet or a meteor or something, the human race doesn't deserve to continue.

Wow. What a horrible attitude to have. A few things:

1. These players are not "idiots."

2. They are not held to any "promises." A contract is not a promise to never ask for improvements in wage. A contract is a 2-way street, and all contracts in professional sports do is prevent a free-for-all and protect the competitive integrity of the game. Branch is not "breaking a promise" anymore than the Krafts were when they cut Troy Brown and re-signed him.

3. "He's underpaid." Yes, he is. When determining if someone is underpaid, it doesn't matter what you and I make. Salaries should be calculated based upon a market competitive wage. I do not do Deion Branch's job, therefore my salary is irrelevant to this conversation. Deion Branch has performed admirably, and has outperformed the current terms of his contract (negotiated before he had taken a professional snap.) He is indeed underpaid when compared to others in his role with similar performance. Like it or not, he is in a multi-billion dollar industry, and his piece of the pie should be higher based on his role. Holding out is a way to use what little leverage he has to make sure ownership takes notice of his demand. It is business. If I were to see a company paying my position significantly higher, I would have the ability to ask my employer to match that offer, or resign and accept the new position. Deion cannot do that because of the CBA. This is why holding out is the only option.

 

[DaBruinz]

I have a lot of friends in the league, so I'm a complete player advocate. I can't help it. If we were in their shoes, we would be getting the same advice and making the same choices.

I don't care HOW many friends you have in the league, too many of the players rely on their agent as the be all end all and can't think for themselves. And that is what gets them into trouble.

I suggest that you do some research on a former NHL Agent by the name of Alan Eagleson. He was the agent for guys like Bobby Orr and Rick Middleton. He is the one who cost the Bruins Bobby Orr because he never told Bobby Orr about the contract that the Bruins offered him in which they offered something like 6-16% ownership of the Bruins. Because Orr didn't know about that offer, Eagles told Orr that he was being snubbed and Orr decided to sign with the Blackhawks. Eagleson also put Middleton into bankruptcy.

Player Agents aren't there to protect the player. They are there to leech off the player and try and get as much money as possible to line their pockets. And many of the players, as someone else said, aren't smart enough to know any better. And its sad, really.

The other part of the problem is that there is so much legal mumbo jumbo thrown into the contracts (almost strictly because of the agents) that players almost CAN'T represent themselves. If the process was simple, then the players could understand the numbers easier and there wouldn't be a need for the agents.

That is why Tedy Bruschi is such a breath of fresh air. Tedy negotiated his own contract, took only enough money that he KNEW he could provide for his family for a LONG time and that was that. And the Patriots did right by him.

 

[DaBruinz]

We don't know what the numbers are, or how they work out. Remember, a huge raise still may not put him near the other players in the league with comparable performance. To make the (weak) parallel to everyday business, if you were performing at a top-level position for an organization, and you were significantly underpaid, and offered a nice raise, but one not close to others in your position throughout the industry, you would probably want to continue negotiations, right? That's all it is. It's not a napoleon complex, it's not arrogance, selfishness, or spite for the Patriots. It's just Deion doing the smart thing and getting his contract taken care of while he still has a lot of leverage.

Actually, we DO know the numbers. Chayut was kind enough to BLAB them to Wrong Bogus the weekend before camp started. It was a 3 year extension that averaged 6.25 million (total 18.75 million) that paid Branch 9 million over the last 2 years of the extension. That also meant that Branch would be seeing 9.75 million this year.

Also, even if it averaged to 5 million a year, Branch hasn't proven he can do it consistently. He's been injured for 3 of the 4 years.

Sorry, Deion is doing the STUPID thing and he really has absolutely no leverage because the Patriots can fine him 14K a day and not give him his contract extension. If Branch holds out for more than 75 days, he will start owing the Patriots money.

What YOU and Branch and Branch's ignorant agent fail to understand is that the Patriots do NOT have to offer Branch an extension (though they did). And they offered one that would pay Branch what he is worth at this point in time. Unfortunately, you seem to have a hard time understanding that concept.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Free Troy Brown!

troy DID get screwed last summer.
i can't figure out how he took the humiliation (not to mention the $) and came back anyway. he must have known it was coming or something. he loves the game, he loves the patriots, but something's not ridht
where are cafardo and poison joe on this one?

1) Troy did not get screwed last summer, unless it was by his wife in their bed. He did, in fact, know that the last year of his contract was bogus.

2) One of the things that happened last season, after Brown re-signed, was that Dunkin Donuts gave him a VERY lucrative offer for doing commercials. One that, from my understanding, made up quite a bit of what he "lost" by getting cut.

 

[Pats67]

Bring on a comet or a meteor or something, the human race doesn't deserve to continue.

Its just a football player looking for a little more money. They'll go back and forth a bit (like adults, I might add) and he'll back back playing ball shortly. Neither you or I or Branch or the Patriots or anybody else will be hurt in any way by any of it. I think its hardly reason to end civilization. I think you might be angry about a little more than a football player holding out.

 

[NovaScotiaPatsFan]

I think your comparison of holding out to "killing and raping children" is right along the same lines as your conclusions about humanity based on your travel around "many different forums". You've got to get some fresh air.

Well you can hook me up with that cuz there seems to be plenty in your head.

I'm done here.

 

[DaBruinz]

Robert Kraft needs Deion Branch more than Deion Branch needs Robert Kraft. That's why it's a business decision. That's why Branch can hold out. That's why Branch can maximize his earning potential. If Deion Branch suddenly started to suck, Robert Kraft could break the relationship and cut Deion Branch. It's a 2 way street negotiated by both the players and owners so that the relationship is mutually beneficial. Branch is at a time where he has leverage, and he's smart to use it. Kraft knows this.

Actually, this is a false and erroneous statement.

Robert Kraft needs 61 players willing to play top notch football under the guidelines of pay structure that the CBA has established.

Branch is just part of the COG. One that can be replaced, though not easily.

Branch isn't worth more than, say, Hines Ward, Reggie Wayne, or Terrell Owens. Branch isn't worth more than Chad Johnson. Branch is in the 2nd tier of #1 WRs. And the Patriots are willing to pay him like that. Unfortunately, Branch thinks that he's an ELITE WR. And he's not.

 

[bucky]

I'm done here.

Good. Please make it permanent.

 

[DaBruinz]

Good. Please make it permanent.

Maybe you should join him

 

[bucky]

Maybe you should join him

If I wanted your opinion, I would fart it out of my ass.