Pats and Colts -- The Fundamental Difference

[He Ban Me]

Enjoy your last weeks of thumping your chest with that statement.

You guys are the queens of dissecting every printed word in an attempt to find the slightest motivation for your team. Almost as if your anger can be telepathically sent to your players on the field. F*cking dodo.

 

[richpats]

You guys are the queens of dissecting every printed word in an attempt to find the slightest motivation for your team. Almost as if your anger can be telepathically sent to your players on the field. F*cking dodo.

If that statement riled you up that much I can't imagine what a Pats victory in the Dome would do

 

[Bo0MeR]

Typical posty by he ban me. Aviod the obvious fact Dungy is a sub par coach and claim the past cheated. Cheating? how about changing rules, piping in crowd noise, turning up the heat and Mudd stealing signals. Heard he was one of the best!

Yeah, how about leaving your field uncovered and crappy just to slow down the Colts, faking injuries on goal line stances to get rest for your players, forcing players to play with concussions, getting caught cheating red handed in the 1st week of the NFL season, and having a reputation for being a overall general prick

Pumping in crowd noise- blatent lie already disproved and made by angry fans, You can say you've "heard" Mudd was good at stealing signals but until he gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar like your coach just another bad unproved rumor. Also I didn't know there was a temperature limit at the Dome, guess if the Pats didn't want to play in the heat they should win HFA maybe? Didn't stop the Pats when they were purposley leaving their field uncovered in the rain and sh** weather just to mess with the Colts speed, I didn't hear any fans complaining about your tactics then????

Dungy is a sub par coach?? Yeah well he's gonna be a sub par HOF coach in a few years and thats all that matters

 

[PatriotsReign]

You guys are the queens of dissecting every printed word in an attempt to find the slightest motivation for your team. Almost as if your anger can be telepathically sent to your players on the field. F*cking dodo.

Actually, it can...Didn't you read the article about Pats fans fueling their angry energy toward Patriots players? If you haven't, here's the link;

http://www.GFY##!$?effyou!.com

 

[danny88]

Yeah, how about leaving your field uncovered and crappy just to slow down the Colts, faking injuries on goal line stances to get rest for your players, forcing players to play with concussions, getting caught cheating red handed in the 1st week of the NFL season, and having a reputation for being a overall general prick

Pumping in crowd noise- blatent lie already disproved and made by angry fans, You can say you've "heard" Mudd was good at stealing signals but until he gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar like your coach just another bad unproved rumor. Also I didn't know there was a temperature limit at the Dome, guess if the Pats didn't want to play in the heat they should win HFA maybe? Didn't stop the Pats when they were purposley leaving their field uncovered in the rain and sh** weather just to mess with the Colts speed, I didn't hear any fans complaining about your tactics then????

Dungy is a sub par coach?? Yeah well he's gonna be a sub par HOF coach in a few years and thats all that matters

Because of Manning, Wayne, Clark, Edge Harrison and Polian. Dungy is a defensive coach with a crap defense year after year. How about last years run defense? Dungy should thank Polian. If it was up to Tony's defensive mind the colts would be screwed.

The only thing Dungy is good at is using the players Polian brings in. That and he's just SUCH a nice guy.

 

[Bostonian1962]

I keep hearing the Pats and Colts are two best teams, and then there is everybody else.

I still need to see more from the Colts. To get an early glimpse, I first look at what the teams did to better themselves. Did the Patriots better themselves? Thomas, Welker, Moss, Stallworth, Morris etc., most definitely.

The Colts, as has been stated many times, lost Cato June, Morris, two corners, Rhodes, Tarik Glenn and others.

Next, I know both teams will win their home games, but how did they do on the road, because you have to win on the road in this league, if you are to be considered amongst the best.

The Pats have had 3 road games, and won by 24, 25, and 21. The first two were against two teams unlikely to be in the playoffs. The last game was against possibly the best NFC team, Dallas. The Colts, have played two teams also unlikely to make the playoffs, and won by 2 and 6.

Then I look at the fact that the Patriots best defensive player, Richard Seymour, hasn't even played yet. The Colts best defensive player, Freeney, is averaging 3.4 tackles, and .3 sacks a game.

Make no mistake, Manning, makes them a threat no matter what game, no matter what opponent. But, I for one, need to see more season to put the Colts in the top two. I've already seen enough to put the Patriots there.

 

[Airkuhl]

Honest question: Why are Colts fans so insecure?

1) The Colts are the reigning SB champs
2) They are undefeated this season
3) They have beaten the Pats every game for the past couple of years
4) Most Pats fans here on this Pats fan forum are respectful and complimentary to the Colts and recognize Manning as one of the greatest QB's to play the game.

Yet, go browse a few Colts forums and there are more threads about Pats than Colts. Lots of Colts fans have anti-Pat sigs and avatars instead of pro-Colts. I guess it's an unintended compliment that the Pats STILL haunt your dreams for all these years.

Memo to Colts fans: Relax and enjoy it. You guys own it all right now and nothing changes that until November 4th. Then we'll see.

 

[Bo0MeR]

Because of Manning, Wayne, Clark, Edge Harrison and Polian. Dungy is a defensive coach with a crap defense year after year. How about last years run defense? Dungy should thank Polian. If it was up to Tony's defensive mind the colts would be screwed.

The only thing Dungy is good at is using the players Polian brings in. That and he's just SUCH a nice guy.

Yeah, because the offense is what carried The Colts to the SB, its not like the D stepped up and played out of this world when it mattered, and in the end thats ALL that mattered. The Colts defense was BUILT to complement the offesne perfectly, and thats what it does. The offesne builds a lead and then the speed of the Defense is unleashed on the passing attack as the other team is forced to play catch up, you can bash Dungy for a few regukar season ganmes last year but its funny because in the end they won the SB the same year.

Many forget just 2 years ago the Colts had a Top 5 defense. Tony broguht his philosophy from Tampa over and made it work in Indy, he found players that fit his system and coached them up to the point where almost anyone could step in and be effective

 

[Bo0MeR]

Honest question: Why are Colts fans so insecure?

1) The Colts are the reigning SB champs
2) They are undefeated this season
3) They have beaten the Pats every game for the past couple of years
4) Most Pats fans here on this Pats fan forum are respectful and complimentary to the Colts and recognize Manning as one of the greatest QB's to play the game.

Yet, go browse a few Colts forums and there are more threads about Pats than Colts. Lots of Colts fans have anti-Pat sigs and avatars instead of pro-Colts. I guess it's an unintended compliment that the Pats STILL haunt your dreams for all these years.

Memo to Colts fans: Relax and enjoy it. You guys own it all right now and nothing changes that until November 4th. Then we'll see.

Ironic as there are how many Colts threads floating on the Main page right now? How many have been started in the last few days???? Infact lets just count from the last HALF HOUR

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=64316
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=64341
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=64348
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=64280
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=64075

 

[danny88]

Yeah, because the offense is what carried The Colts to the SB, its not like the D stepped up and played out of this world when it mattered, and in the end thats ALL that mattered. The Colts defense was BUILT to complement the offesne perfectly, and thats what it does. The offesne builds a lead and then the speed of the Defense is unleashed on the passing attack as the other team is forced to play catch up, you can bash Dungy for a few regukar season ganmes last year but its funny because in the end they won the SB the same year.

Many forget just 2 years ago the Colts had a Top 5 defense. Tony broguht his philosophy from Tampa over and made it work in Indy, he found players that fit his system and coached them up to the point where almost anyone could step in and be effective

So the d stepped up over a four game span? What about the fact they where the fifth worst run d in NFL history for 16 games last year. It helped that the colts played Baltimore and KC in the first rounds of the playoffs to. Those teams had absolutely no offense. They didn't even show up to play. New England put up big points on the colts D. So lets recap. The colts had a horrid defense over 16 games regular season, they then played two mediocre offensive teams in round one and two of the playoffs, then gave up big points to NE in the championship game. The colts offense won them the game vs NE. They outscored Brady and his mighty core of wr's. You know Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, Troy Brown. The pats handed that game away.

Dungy is nothing more then an average defensive coach with amazing HOF players given to him by his gm. The fact he is a very nice guy makes people look over this. Can you imagine if Belichick had the defenses Dungy did over the years? There would be articles ripping him for days.

 

[He Ban Me]

Actually, it can...Didn't you read the article about Pats fans fueling their angry energy toward Patriots players? If you haven't, here's the link;

http://www.GFY##!$?effyou!.com

Damn it! I can't get it to link!

 

[Bo0MeR]

So the d stepped up over a five game span? What about the fact they where the fifth worst run d in NFL history for 16 games last year. It helped that the colts played Baltimore and KC in the first rounds of the playoffs to. Those teams had absolutely no offense. They didn't even show up to play. New England put up big points on the colts D. So lets recap. The colts had a horrid defense over 16 games regular season, they then played two mediocre offensive teams in round one and two of the playoffs, then gave up big points to NE in the championship game. The colts offense won them the game vs NE. They outscored Brady and his mighty core of wr's. You know Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, Troy Brown. The pats handed that game away.

Dungy is nothing more then an average defensive coach with amazing HOF players given to him by his gm. The fact he is a very nice guy makes people look over this. Can you imagine if Belichick had the defenses Dungy did over the years? There would be articles ripping him for days.

What matters????? The regular season or the post season???? Common your a Pats fan you should know this answer. I don;t care what the stats were because the COLTS WON THE SB, so regardless of a 5 game strech that meant very little in the grand scheme of things,how about focusing on the 12 games since then that the Colts have only allowed 2 100 yard rushers?? How about talking about the Defense that right now is #5 in total defense and #3 in passing????? (13th in rushing before you ask) So doesn't the fact that the Colts according to you spend all their money on offense but can still wield a Defense strong enough to make the plays to get the team is of no credit to Dungy??

You tried to make is sound like the Colts were rolling before Dungy got there, you know what their record was pre-Dungy (SINCE Manning arrived) 32-32 .500 buddy. You know what their record is since Dungy arrived???? 53-16. So there goes your argument that Dungy just stepped in and took over a powerhouse Colt team, saying Dungy is a overrated coach is just straight up unarguably ridiculous

 

[danny88]

What matters????? The regular season or the post season???? Common your a Pats fan you should know this answer. I don;t care what the stats were because the COLTS WON THE SB, so regardless of a 5 game strech that meant very little in the grand scheme of things,how about focusing on the 12 games since then that the Colts have only allowed 2 100 yard rushers?? How about talking about the Defense that right now is #5 in total defense and #3 in passing????? (13th in rushing before you ask) So doesn't the fact that the Colts according to you spend all their money on offense but can still wield a Defense strong enough to make the plays to get the team is of no credit to Dungy??

You tried to make is sound like the Colts were rolling before Dungy got there, you know what their record was pre-Dungy (SINCE Manning arrived) 32-32 .500 buddy. You what their record is since Dungy arrived???? 53-16. So there goes your argument that Dungy just stepped in and took over a powerhouse Colt team, saying Dungy is a overrated coach is just straight up unarguably ridiculous

Dungy is a overrated coach.

 

[He Ban Me]

I keep hearing the Pats and Colts are two best teams, and then there is everybody else.

I still need to see more from the Colts. To get an early glimpse, I first look at what the teams did to better themselves. Did the Patriots better themselves? Thomas, Welker, Moss, Stallworth, Morris etc., most definitely.

The Colts, as has been stated many times, lost Cato June, Morris, two corners, Rhodes, Tarik Glenn and others.

Next, I know both teams will win their home games, but how did they do on the road, because you have to win on the road in this league, if you are to be considered amongst the best.

The Pats have had 3 road games, and won by 24, 25, and 21. The first two were against two teams unlikely to be in the playoffs. The last game was against possibly the best NFC team, Dallas. The Colts, have played two teams also unlikely to make the playoffs, and won by 2 and 6.

Then I look at the fact that the Patriots best defensive player, Richard Seymour, hasn't even played yet. The Colts best defensive player, Freeney, is averaging 3.4 tackles, and .3 sacks a game.

Make no mistake, Manning, makes them a threat no matter what game, no matter what opponent. But, I for one, need to see more season to put the Colts in the top two. I've already seen enough to put the Patriots there.

Well, before I put the Pats on page one, I'm gonna need to see some more

Seriously, WTF are you??

The Colts 2 road games:

1.) Divisional, versus the 6th ranked Total Defense team, and the 16th ranked. TN is a very physical team, and are deserving of that Rank. They are #1 against the rush. They are 4th in scoring defense. Had it not been for a non call on a PI, game never gets that close. Texans were down 27-10. Prevent in the 4th quarter, they burned close to 9 minutes on a single drive. Colts were willing to give up the short stuff. Waiting to create a mistake. 4th and 9, and they got 9.5, otherwise, game not that close. Definately not as close as the score.

2.)ON THE OTHER HAND, your road games were versus two of the bottom three defenses in the league. Congrats! Dallas was impressive, big FG turned into a TD on those 3rd and 4th down plays in the red zone. Instead of fighting for a 24-21 lead, easily could have been 24-17. Not taking anything away from NE, great game, but perhaps ROMO doesn't throw that late pick with a closer deficit, then the garbage TD doesn't happen, then the margin of victory is much tighter.

To call the Jets and the Bengals "unlikely" playoff teams is generous at best. While I don't imagine the Texans will vie for a spot, I wouldn't scratch TN just yet, unless VY is done for awhile. Either way, they both finish better than the Jets by far, and probably ahead of the 1-4 Bengals too.

Aside:

Even though we call the NFC the JV squad, it will be interesting to see how that plays out. I wouldn't count out teams like the Giants, Bucs, Packers. There will be plenty of comp for that crown.

 

[PatriotsReign]

"... Instead of fighting for a 24-21 lead, easily could have been 24-17. Not taking anything away from NE, great game, but perhaps ROMO doesn't throw that late pick with a closer deficit, then the garbage TD doesn't happen, then the margin of victory is much tighter."

HBM...just an FYI, but "easily could have been..." doesn't cut it in sports debates. NOTHING can "easily" be something else, it is what it is...nothing else.

I know we're all probably guilty of that line of thinking, but we all use it only when things don't go our way. Take golf...a great example! If I didn't hit that ball in the water or miss that putt.

But make no mistake, the Pats game against the Cowboys could not have been anything other than what it was...a fairly easy win.

It could EASILY have been an outright blow-out too had Brady not fumbled...but he did. He did not almost not fumble, nor did Romo almost not throw that pick towards the end of the game.

You need a better argument brudda.

 

[He Ban Me]

So the d stepped up over a four game span? What about the fact they where the fifth worst run d in NFL history for 16 games last year. It helped that the colts played Baltimore and KC in the first rounds of the playoffs to. Those teams had absolutely no offense. They didn't even show up to play. New England put up big points on the colts D. So lets recap. The colts had a horrid defense over 16 games regular season, they then played two mediocre offensive teams in round one and two of the playoffs, then gave up big points to NE in the championship game. The colts offense won them the game vs NE. They outscored Brady and his mighty core of wr's. You know Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, Troy Brown. The pats handed that game away.

Dungy is nothing more then an average defensive coach with amazing HOF players given to him by his gm. The fact he is a very nice guy makes people look over this. Can you imagine if Belichick had the defenses Dungy did over the years? There would be articles ripping him for days.

The problem is, you like to focus on our opponents weaknesses. The problem in the NFL currently is there are very few teams that are above average on both sides of the ball. I agree that the Jets and the Chiefs truely were not playoff caliber teams, or at least, they didn't match up too well with their scheduled opponents. Jax, Denver, or the Bengals would have been more formidible, but for whatever reason, they didn't make it.

Let's take a peek at those mediocre offensive teams we faced:

1.) KC-Middle of the road in pretty much all categories. They were the #9 rush team on O. 15th in scoring O. (11th in scoring D). Herm was chided for NOT going to the PASS. A few weeks earlier, in the DOME, Marv Lewis was criticized for NOT sticking with the RUN. Keep in mind, Cincy has a duo of CJ and Housch.

2.) Ravens-17th in Total Offense. Pretty poor rush team (25th) but 11th in the pass. 12th in the league in scoring, at 22.6 per game. The problem is you are discounting their defense. 1st Total, 1st scoring, 2nd V. the run. AND they create many points on T.O.'s-they score TD's and creat short fields. Yet they didn't manage to get it in the end zone. Our turnovers didn't hurt us. Their D, while it didn't allow any TD's, got pushed around the field. They allowed us out of our own territory from the 2 yard line, long sustained drive, lead to a FG. 2nd half when they needed a stop, they got rolled again. Still only a FG, but it was enough to ice the game. That was a tough opponent in a very hostile environment. These guys can't stand their former team.

3.) Pats-You know enough about your own team

4.) Bears-Second in scoring offense. Again, they created a lot of points on T.O's as well. 15th in Total Offense. But obviously, they took care of business against an explosive N.O. offense, but couldn't handle the Colts.

The point again is that there are basically TWO MAIN PARTS to the game, offense AND defense. The Ravens were pretty woeful in '00, but I don't know that folks complained about their Offense. Remember the mantra "Defense wins Championships"?? Well, we went up against 3 of the leagues top defenses, and came out on top. All the while, performing like a top defense ourselves. So you can say what you want about the "woeful" competition, but in the playoffs, to win, you have to be able to run the ball, and stop the run, and that's what the Colts did.

 

[He Ban Me]

HBM...just an FYI, but "easily could have been..." doesn't cut it in sports debates. NOTHING can "easily" be something else, it is what it is...nothing else.

I know we're all probably guilty of that line of thinking, but we all use it only when things don't go our way. Take golf...a great example! If I didn't hit that ball in the water or miss that putt.

But make no mistake, the Pats game against the Cowboys could not have been anything other than what it was...a fairly easy win.

It could EASILY have been an outright blow-out too had Brady not fumbled...but he did. He did not almost not fumble, nor did Romo almost not throw that pick towards the end of the game.

You need a better argument brudda.

I understand that , and qualified my statement by saying I was not taking away from the Pats. Some games, teams get rolled, and the score is indicative of that. Soemtimes, temms lose by a large margin, but the game is closer than the score would indicate. Had you not watched this game, but just saw the final score, one might be surprised to see that the Pats were actually behind in the 2nd half. By this score, I would have surmised that it was the Cowboys that maybe got a late garbage TD, not the Pats.

Funny, but who doesn't play the "what if" game when their team loses. Usually, it's pretty easy to target 2-3 turning points, where had something gone your way, perhaps the outcome would have been different. It seems there was a lot of that at the end of the year last year, know what I mean?

 

[PatriotsReign]

I understand that , and qualified my statement by saying I was not taking away from the Pats. Some games, teams get rolled, and the score is indicative of that. Soemtimes, temms lose by a large margin, but the game is closer than the score would indicate. Had you not watched this game, but just saw the final score, one might be surprised to see that the Pats were actually behind in the 2nd half. By this score, I would have surmised that it was the Cowboys that maybe got a late garbage TD, not the Pats.

Funny, but who doesn't play the "what if" game when their team loses. Usually, it's pretty easy to target 2-3 turning points, where had something gone your way, perhaps the outcome would have been different. It seems there was a lot of that at the end of the year last year, know what I mean?

Yes! That was the only game ever that "what if" & "could easily have been" were actually ever proven to mean something

We may not have "killed" Dallas, but we beat them soundly and were clearly the better team. Under-dogs sometimes get some breaks and make it appear close for a quarter or so, but I doubt many who watched that game thought, "If they played again, who knows?" ...'cept maybe Crayton.

 

[He Ban Me]

Yes! That was the only game ever that "what if" & "could easily have been" were actually ever proven to mean something

We may not have "killed" Dallas, but we beat them soundly and were clearly the better team. Under-dogs sometimes get some breaks and make it appear close for a quarter or so, but I doubt many who watched that game thought, "If they played again, who knows?" ...'cept maybe Crayton.

Agree, Pats were the clear cut winner. Against a lesser team, Dallas might have been able to overcome, but against the Pats, you have to take advantage of every break, and make sure you don't give them any.

 

[jaytyme]

Two undefeated teams with incredible systems, yet there's a great contrast and irony between the Pats and the Colts that I haven't seen discussed.

It seems clear to me that the Patriots off-season moves were to build themselves a Colts-caliber offense...but not an imitation!!

There remains a fundamental difference: despite the Patriots makeover, the Pats remain a game plan team: slavish film study every week and customized O and D for each opponent. Dungy disdains both aspects of the Patriots approach. He wants his players to have a life away from football; excessive study time is a sign of misguided priorities to him. And he preaches one basic O and D, relying on speed, reflexes, and practice-makes-perfect to out-execute the opponent regardless of who they are and what they throw at Indy.

BB's motto might be "Knowing your opponent + versatility = success"

Dungy's motto might be "Knowing yourself + perfect execution = success"

Who's right? I'm a connoisseur of the Patriots approach, but I respect the incredible consistency the Colts have achieved over the past few years too. Personally, I'm with the humble pie on all the Pats/Colts smack talk and I'll be fascinated to see how these two radically different approaches work out in the weeks and years ahead.

Your thoughts?

i've looked at both teams performance and the one signifigant statistical difference i can find supports the original claim that the pats game plan better than the colts.

in the first half the pats have outscored their opponent at a 3 to 1 clip (117 to 38), while the colts are about 1.5 to 1 (70 to 46). remove the dallas game and the pats are 4.5 to 1 (92 to 21). Second half stats show that both teams outscore their opponents at better than 2 to 1 (colts 94-42)(pats 117-54). this indicates that both teams seem to adjust well as the game progresses.

IMO, the 2nd half stats reveal 2 things:
1.) how well both brady and manning adjust to the looks they've seen
2.) how well both defenses adjust to what they've seen

based on this simplistic analysis i would expect the pats to win the 1st half and both teams to play even in the 2nd half

resulting in a close pats win.