Pass rushing OLBs addressed

[patchick]

No one twisted Belichick's arm, to force him to trade incumbent SOLB Mike Vrable.

That's the key to me, too. It seems clear that BB looked at the OLB roster as consituted before the draft and concluded that Vrabel wouldn't see a lot of snaps. Meaning Woods is significantly better than Vrabel. Which ain't chopped liver.

So he added TBC as a cheap, known-quantity vet fill-in, and he's developing Crable and Redd. From there on, it's opportunistic. If you can find a draft pick at good value who's a clear upgrade on Crable, great. If you can find a vet who's a clear upgrade on Tully (e.g. the offer to Taylor), splendid. If not, you have your OLB roster.

Does it strike fear in opponents' hearts? Probably not. Is it a glaring hole in the lineup? Nope -- not unless you take all-world position depth like the DL as your standard of expectation.

 

[AzPatsFan]

So, as I understand your argument, Belichick is such a genius that linebackers are best gotten as undrafted free agents and trained by our coaches, as long as they have the measurables. Our future stars are Redd, Craig, Woods (if we extend him) and Guyton.

Certainly no one we could have drafted is better in our system that these three????????

And just BTW, I think that our ILB's in the SB years were just a bit better: Bruschi, Phifer and Johnson. You are fine counting on Mayo, Bruschi, and Guyton for 2009. For 2010, you seem fine with Mayo, Guyton and Mckenzie. You are fine with no backups and no Plan B.

No, but the Realities of the CAP, say you can't pay three or four top draft picks to go to school for three years. One will bust; one will be a mediocre sub; and perhaps you get one good OLB out of the deal.
After of course, signing him to a new lucrative contract, or losing him in FAs.


Working with several athletic, developmental, players of the right size and mental qualities, but very raw is what you probably are forced to do. Fortunately there are lots of those types of players. They aren't drafted because they are not NFL ready. So what, BB has three years or so to get them ready for the NFL

 

[AzPatsFan]

That's the key to me, too. It seems clear that BB looked at the OLB roster as consituted before the draft and concluded that Vrabel wouldn't see a lot of snaps. Meaning Woods is significantly better than Vrabel. Which ain't chopped liver.

So he added TBC as a cheap, known-quantity vet fill-in, and he's developing Crable and Redd. From there on, it's opportunistic. If you can find a draft pick at good value who's a clear upgrade on Crable, great. If you can find a vet who's a clear upgrade on Tully (e.g. the offer to Taylor), splendid. If not, you have your OLB roster.

Does it strike fear in opponents' hearts? Probably not. Is it a glaring hole in the lineup? Nope -- not unless you take all-world position depth like the DL as your standard of expectation.

You have stated my thesis, very succinctly, and well. Thanks.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Mg,

To the later part of your reply, I say this. Tell me a time when we had more than three playable ILBs? And don't give me names, when TJ or Tedy was hurt; that was no different than Mackenzie on IR, now.

We had Tedy and Cox, and TJ injured.
We had Tedy and TJ with Phife sometimes helping out.
We had Tedy hurt and TJ retired, with Beisel and Brown, before Seau came out of retirement.
In short only for a brief time did we have Tedy, TJ and Cox, all available.

Today we have Mayo and Tedy, with Guyton in the rotation; and McKenzie in the wings, and Appleby as the runstuffer specialist. Toss in the nonsense of Alexander too.

In next year 's draft, BB will probably take a LOT, OLB, RB, and ILB in his top picks, And stock up on a new crew of athletic OLB wanna-bes too. Maybe he will draft another Guard in the 4th or 5th, and a Punter...

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US
I expect Belichick to still solve this signficant weakness of the team. I think this is a crucial piece of unfinished business. Belichick seems to agree, having tried to get Taylor, and negotiating for Burgess; and who knows what other players are being considered.

On the other hand, others (and you?) seem to think that Belichick is just fine with what we have, and that we uniformed poster morons should know better than to question Belichick, since he is the best.

"I" haven't made my mind of up that OLB IS a "significant weakness" based on speculation. OTAs haven't even occurred yet and you have branded OLB a problem area. While I'm sure NE expressed an interest in Jason Taylor and are exploring the Oakland desire to dump Burgess, I don't automatically consider those news stories to be major indicators of dissatisfaction with the OLB pool, BB brings in veterans all the time as "role" players and camp competition, until I see a reliable report that Burgess is a Pat and we learn some details on his contract, it's just routine team building and not a scramble to resolve the hole in mgteich's roster.

 

[MetalBleachers]

I know this isn't a draft question but I thought this might be worth piggybacking here: any word on guys like Jason Babin, Jason Hunter or Anthony Weaver? Any reason to bring any one of them in?

Now that I read that over, I have my own answer. I'd rather see Crable and Redd develop than bring in another DE/OLB project.

My Gawd, I'm bored.:yawn2:

 

[mayoclinic]

I know this isn't a draft question but I thought this might be worth piggybacking here: any word on guys like Jason Babin, Jason Hunter or Anthony Weaver? Any reason to bring any one of them in?

Now that I read that over, I have my own answer. I'd rather see Crable and Redd develop than bring in another DE/OLB project.

My Gawd, I'm bored.:yawn2:

What about Connor Barwin? Maybe we could pull a trade with Houston.

 

[dryheat44]

What about Connor Barwin? Maybe we could pull a trade with Houston.

Maybe Houston will take a third rounder for him.

 

[MetalBleachers]

What about Connor Barwin? Maybe we could pull a trade with Houston.

I'd definitely take Barwin over English or Matthews.

 

[captain stone]

MGT et. al. are 100%, spot-on correct. Our LB situation is a mess because, just like the messes on the OLine & Secondary, our FO "genius"(snicker) has effed-up the college & pro eval & acquisition processes. His infatuation with aging vets at the expense of scouting, drafting & developing talent & youth has cost us 2 Championships.

When you have as many draft picks as this FO has averaged during the Belichick Era, there are certain positions, due to larger #s needed or attrition, which should be drafted every single year: LB, CB, OL & RB. How the **** can Bill not draft even a single LB higher than the 7th round until 2005, and none higher than Claridge's 170, EVER, until Mayo? That is nothing less than bold-faced dereliction of duty.

LB drafted since 2000, before Mayo:
2000 - Casey Tisdale, DE/OLB, 7th
2001 - TJ Turner, I/O, 7th
2002 - Zero
2003 - TBC, OLB, 7th
2004 - Zero
2005 - Ryan Claridge, I/O, 5th
2006 - Jeremy Mincey, OLB, 6th
2007 - Justin Rogers, OLB, 6th; Oscar Lua, ILB, 7th

TBC was one of the best value picks of the Belichick era; Claridge couldn't cope with his brother's suicide; and Rogers was lost on waivers on his way to the PS. The rest became what I knew they would become the microsecond they were drafted: useless garbage.

Bill has fared a little better in free agency:
2000 - Matt Chatham: good STer, OK sub.
2001 - Vrabel, Phifer & Cox: a gold mine.
2002 - Zero
2003 - Colvin: IRed after week 2, prob. never regained explosiveness.
2004 - Eric Alexander, UDFA: I can't believe this piece of crap is still on the team.
2005 - Monty Beisel & Chad Brown: need I say more?
2006 - Corey Mays, UDFA: unproductive in college, worse in the pros.
....... - Junior Seau: Pats' best new ILB, college or pro, since '01. I'd still rather have him than Bruschi.
....... - Woods: nothing more than good ST JAG, so far.
2007 - AD Thomas: moved Inside until Colvin's injury, so sack #s weren't there; Pats' best defender in SB.
2008 - Gary Guyton: STer & backup WILB only.
....... - Vincent Redd: has more potential than Woods.

The bottom line is, that the additions since '06 of Woods, Thomas, Mayo, Crable, Guyton, Redd, McKenzie & Appleby have been long overdue, but still come with plenty of question marks, the most important being: Can anyone amoung Woods, Crable or Redd ever develop into even a decent Pass-Rusher? I think the answer is No, but that's why they play the games. But if Barwin and/or Sidbury - or other overlooked LBs from drafts past - have more sacks at season's end than Woods, Crable & Redd combined, I'll be here to say I Told You So.

 

[Clonamery]

..... I'll be here to say I Told You So.

Our lives wouldn't be complete.

 

[DaBruinz]

MGT et. al. are 100%, spot-on correct. Our LB situation is a mess because, just like the messes on the OLine & Secondary, our FO "genius"(snicker) has effed-up the college & pro eval & acquisition processes. His infatuation with aging vets at the expense of scouting, drafting & developing talent & youth has cost us 2 Championships.

You seriously are clueless. LBs are one of the most heavily scouted positions by the Patriots on kids coming out of college. There is no infatuation with aging vets.

What proof do you have that it has cost the Patriots 2 Championships?

When you have as many draft picks as this FO has averaged during the Belichick Era, there are certain positions, due to larger #s needed or attrition, which should be drafted every single year: LB, CB, OL & RB. How the **** can Bill not draft even a single LB higher than the 7th round until 2005, and none higher than Claridge's 170, EVER, until Mayo? That is nothing less than bold-faced dereliction of duty.

LB drafted since 2000, before Mayo:
2000 - Casey Tisdale, DE/OLB, 7th
2001 - TJ Turner, I/O, 7th
2002 - Zero
2003 - TBC, OLB, 7th
2004 - Zero
2005 - Ryan Claridge, I/O, 5th
2006 - Jeremy Mincey, OLB, 6th
2007 - Justin Rogers, OLB, 6th; Oscar Lua, ILB, 7th

TBC was one of the best value picks of the Belichick era; Claridge couldn't cope with his brother's suicide; and Rogers was lost on waivers on his way to the PS. The rest became what I knew they would become the microsecond they were drafted: useless garbage.

Dereliction of duty? You clearly haven't read Management Secrets of the New England Patriots or Patriot Reign. Both explain about the LB situations. OH, and BTW, Mincey caught on with Jacksonville and is still there. It was his own lax attitude that got him cut.

Also, you don't draft a position just for the sake of drafting. If there aren't players there who you think can develop for that position, why take them?

Bill has fared a little better in free agency:
2000 - Matt Chatham: good STer, OK sub.
2001 - Vrabel, Phifer & Cox: a gold mine.
2002 - Zero
2003 - Colvin: IRed after week 2, prob. never regained explosiveness.
2004 - Eric Alexander, UDFA: I can't believe this piece of crap is still on the team.
2005 - Monty Beisel & Chad Brown: need I say more?
2006 - Corey Mays, UDFA: unproductive in college, worse in the pros.
....... - Junior Seau: Pats' best new ILB, college or pro, since '01. I'd still rather have him than Bruschi.
....... - Woods: nothing more than good ST JAG, so far.
2007 - AD Thomas: moved Inside until Colvin's injury, so sack #s weren't there; Pats' best defender in SB.
2008 - Gary Guyton: STer & backup WILB only.
....... - Vincent Redd: has more potential than Woods.

Actually you do need to say more. Like in 2005 that there were extenuating circumstances that forced both Brown and Beisel into positions they weren't ready for. First was Bruschi's stroke and the second was Ted Johnson being forced to retire prior to the start of TC.

The bottom line is, that the additions since '06 of Woods, Thomas, Mayo, Crable, Guyton, Redd, McKenzie & Appleby have been long overdue, but still come with plenty of question marks, the most important being: Can anyone amoung Woods, Crable or Redd ever develop into even a decent Pass-Rusher? I think the answer is No, but that's why they play the games. But if Barwin and/or Sidbury - or other overlooked LBs from drafts past - have more sacks at season's end than Woods, Crable & Redd combined, I'll be here to say I Told You So.

You fail to comprehend numerous things. First and foremost is that unless players like Barwin or Sidbury are playing in the 3-4 2 gap, comparing them to someone on the Patriots is comparing apples to oranges. Second, I know for a fact that Houston is going to be using Barwin at DE in the 4-3 opposite Marrio Williams. Sidbury is on the Falcons. They run the 4-3 also. That means Sidbury will also be lining up at DE. So how can you compare them? Lastly, Sacks aren't the only thing that BB looks for from his LBs. He looks for pressure on the QB and turnovers. So, to just use the ONE stat to make a judgement shows a lack of understanding of the game in general.

 

[DaBruinz]

I think we all hope the guys on the roster are good enough. Caserio's recent comments seem to indicate they're still looking for someone at that spot -- maybe there's a cap casualty they're anticipating, or maybe they're going to wait, see what they've got, and if the young guys don't pan out they'll pull the trigger on some sort of trade. We don't know.

Here's one thing I do know: the people who were hot for Connor Barwin or some of the other workout warriors in the draft should remember that Crable basically matched Barwin's combine numbers last year. In fact he was faster than Barwin.

This is false. Barwin was not a workout warrior. Also, the only numbers that Crable came close to Barwin at the combine were the 40 and the bench press. Crable's numbers for the shuttle (4.55), 3 cone (7.29), vertical (28"), and broad jump (9'3") were significantly worse than Barwin's (4.18)(6.87)(40.5")(10'8").

Woods, physically, isn't much different than a Lawrence Sidbury (except maybe that he's bigger than Sidbury). Both of these guys, Crable and Woods, they're nearly ideal specimens for the job. So there are a couple of young athletes with measurables already on the team. Adding more young guys with measurables at that spot through this year's draft would probably not have been a cure-all in any case.

I agree that it wouldn't have been a cure all. People on here seem to forget that there is more than just measurables that make a good player.

Honestly, I think they're going to be fine at that spot, unless AD goes down with an injury early. With better corners and safeties, they'll be able to blitz a little more, and that'll really help the rush. The really big question is if Crable/Woods can handle the run downs, since neither of those guys are really all that great at shedding blocks.

Woods did pretty well in the at setting the edge against run plays last year. In fact, that seemed to be more of a focus for him than rushing the passer.

 

[DaBruinz]

As someone else posted, Belichick apparently has a blind spot with regard to linebackers. If these linebackers produce as well as the 2001 linebackers, You can certainly say that Belichick told me so. At least 5 linebackers get significant reps in every game (not counting the special teamers). If all we have five who produce resembling the best linebacker group, by all means you can point out that Belichick told us so.

THE POINT
Until that happens, Belichick has taken the best linebacker group in football (which he half-created in 2001) and made it our weakness and the reason we don't win Super Bowls.

SINCE 2002
I too was so glad that Belichick trade up from 32 in the 2002 draft to 21 to draft Napolean Harris, giving up our 3rd and 7th. Or did we trade up for Lito Shepherd or for Ed Reed? And Belichick drafted Daniel Graham.

So, Its Belichick's fault that Tedy Bruschi had a stroke? It's Belichick's fault that Ted Johnson hid the severity of his concussion at the exit physical only to have it picked up at the start of TC, forcing him to retire? Its BB's fault that Colvin got injured in the 2nd game he played in for the Patriots. Its BB's fault that Jeremy Mincey didn't put 100% effort into his TC because the thought he'd be given a year to get things under his belt?

While BB has some blame about the condition of the LBs, there is such a thing as being a victim of circumstances. There are such things that one cannot account for. Something that people always forget is that Square Pegs don't fit in round holes unless you shave the corners or the diagonal of the square is smaller than the diameter of the circle. In either case, You end up with parts that don't fit properly and have lots of holes.

 

[DaBruinz]

We had five top linebackers in 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004. We won three of four Superbowls with Brady and the linebackers as our strengths The developmental need should have been evident as none of these linebackers were youngsters. In 2005, the linebacker situation crashed the team when Phifer was cut, Bruschi had his stroke and Johnson retired. Since then, the situation has gotten much better, but nowhere where we were. Every team has its weaknesses. However, it is seems unusual to go from the best to the worst at a position (other than QB) in such a short period of time, especially since we added Colvin and Thomas in the that time period.

Linebacker might be the weakest position on the Patriots, but the Patriots LBs are hardly the worst in the league. Also, you are talking about a 10 year time span.

I agree that we have the best coach in the history of the game, one who can coach well, even when all his top personnel leave. I also agree that we have the best team in the NFL, although Steeler fans have reason to disagree. Personally, I think that we will be signing 2-4 more linebackers before camp.

Obviously, we need topics to discuss, and have discussed the linebacker situation every year for many years. At this point, in this season, this position is unfinished business, because Belichick has chosen to delay resolution until now.

I agree that linebacker has been a topic of discussion for many years. I can remember plenty of talk about in 2003 and 2004 about adding more youth and names like Napolean Harris, Dontarrius Thomas, Chaun Thompson, Kiwanuka, D'Qwell Jackson, etc all being talked about. But has anyone gone back and looked at those players to see what they've done? Beyond Demeco Ryans and David Harris, how many of them have been more than slightly above average while playing in a 3-4????

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US
I expect Belichick to still solve this signficant weakness of the team. I think this is a crucial piece of unfinished business. Belichick seems to agree, having tried to get Taylor, and negotiating for Burgess; and who knows what other players are being considered.

On the other hand, others (and you?) seem to think that Belichick is just fine with what we have, and that we uniformed poster morons should know better than to question Belichick, since he is the best.

Belichick is always trying to improve the team. And if he believes that he can improve the team in one area without significantly weakening another, he'll do that. It doesn't mean that he believes that the area he's trying to improve is "unfinished business." It means that, like anything, there is always someone better.

 

[DaBruinz]

I don't know all the teams that run a 3-4 but the ones I can think of in the AFC (Steelers, Chargers, Jets) all have better LBs than the Patriots.

The Steelers and Chargers play a 1 gap system. And its debatable as to whether the Chargers LBs are better than the Patriots LBs. Especially with Merriman's status up in the air.

The cap is not exactly flush but even though they are border line stiffs and may not make the final roster I would be comfortable with a trade for Burgess(4th rounder) and sign Napolean Harris (vet minimum).

Either way I see the team looking like:
Offense - Superior
Special Teams - Good
Defense - Good

Good enough to win it all provided they play well at the end.

The Pats signed Paris Lenon so I doubt that Napolean Harris is on their radar. I think they'd be looking at OLBs. And there aren't many of them on the market. Though Colvin and McGinest are both there.

 

[mgteich]

I believe that Bruschi's stroke was in January or February. He still hasn't been replaced. Bruschi was a starter that Belichick and the team depended on. He had a stroke. And the response was to sign Monty Beisel, a special teamer, who at the time was thought to be the replacement for Davis who was about done. Is Belichick responsible for how he responded to Bruschi's stroke in free agency and in the 2005 draft? Yes, he is.

So, Its Belichick's fault that Tedy Bruschi had a stroke? It's Belichick's fault that Ted Johnson hid the severity of his concussion at the exit physical only to have it picked up at the start of TC, forcing him to retire? Its BB's fault that Colvin got injured in the 2nd game he played in for the Patriots. Its BB's fault that Jeremy Mincey didn't put 100% effort into his TC because the thought he'd be given a year to get things under his belt?

While BB has some blame about the condition of the LBs, there is such a thing as being a victim of circumstances. There are such things that one cannot account for. Something that people always forget is that Square Pegs don't fit in round holes unless you shave the corners or the diagonal of the square is smaller than the diameter of the circle. In either case, You end up with parts that don't fit properly and have lots of holes.

 

[DaBruinz]

I believe that Bruschi's stroke was in January or February. He still hasn't been replaced. Bruschi was a starter that Belichick and the team depended on. He had a stroke. And the response was to sign Monty Beisel, a special teamer, who at the time was thought to be the replacement for Davis who was about done. Is Belichick responsible for how he responded to Bruschi's stroke in free agency and in the 2005 draft? Yes, he is.

Bruschi's stroke was in mid-February just after his return from the Pro Bowl.

Who was available that year that could have replaced Bruschi? No one. Belichick still had Ted Johnson and he signed Beisel and Chad Brown. Beisel was more than just a special teamer for the Chiefs. He was also someone who had played DE and OLB for them, having started 9 games at OLB. Had Ted Johnson not gone down and Vrabel not been injured during camp, the Pats would have had 3 veteran LBs to line up next to Brown and it would have been less of an issue. However, with Johnson retiring unexpectedly the day before camp and Vrabel being injured, the Pats were left with relying on Beisel and Brown. The worst case scenario.

 

[patchick]

And then there were five:

With the release of Angelo Craig, the OLBs on the roster are Thomas, Woods, Banta-Cain, Crable & Redd. A rather short list for this time of year, with no obvious cuts.

 

[dryheat44]

And then there were five:

With the release of Angelo Craig, the OLBs on the roster are Thomas, Woods, Banta-Cain, Crable & Redd. A rather short list for this time of year, with no obvious cuts.

I think, depending on how Woods and Crable look, that there might be something to that Derrick Burgess rumor.