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Pass rushing OLBs addressed

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by dryheat44, Apr 27, 2009.

  1. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    Keep this in mind for next year:

    "I think the outside linebacker group this year was a little bit different," Belichick said. "Generally speaking, I'd say there were more shorter players, maybe a little less speed than what we've seen, but maybe a little more power with good production. There weren't a lot of 4.6, 4.65 guys in the [40-yard dash], and not a lot of 6-[foot]-4[-inch], 6-5 guys. There was a much smaller pool of those players."

    FWIW, Crable, Redd, and Woods are all over 6'5". Maybe at this position it's not all about college production? Stryker Sulak had the length, but he was slow. Mike Johnson had both, so I wonder where he was rated by Belichick. Barwin and Maybin are each ~6' 4", so I wonder what would have happened had Maybin been available at #23.

    Should we start beating the drum for Greg Hardy in 2010 (6'5" 260 <4.7)?
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2009
  2. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I had Maybin as my #2 upside 3-4 OLB after Barwin, partly because he had the length. I think BB liked both of them (though I think 11 was way too high for Maybin), but I just don't think he felt OLB was as much of a need as the secondary.

    I like Greg Hardy, but the guy I really like for next year is Sergio Kindle - 6'4", 256# and possibly sub 4.5 speed, with experience playing LB at Texas. He was my co-binky with Barwin in January before he decided to go back to UT for his senior year.
  3. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The secondary and nose tackle needs were addressed in the first 3 of our 12 picks. Apparently OLB was less of a need to Belichick than lots of other positions also.

  4. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    Me and the Friend that I watched the draft with both *****ed when Maybin came off the board.

    I really think we have overated the need for LBs.

    BB loves Mayo, Thomas is nasty, Bru and Tully are the Vet role players he loves, Guyton is another role player, Woods is an adequate starter, and there is a ton of young guys that all have potential Crable, Redd, Mckenzie and a few others.
  5. aaron spacemuseum

    aaron spacemuseum Rookie

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    I think BB would have pulled the trigger on Barwin if he had slid to the end of the 2nd but otherwise didn't want to invest so highly in a project -- as talented as he is, he would still require a TON of learning to be a part of this D. We have enough OLB projects on the roster that drafting another high to sit on the bench and learn for 1-2 years did not make sense. I was shocked that he passed on Sintim so many times but I guess there is more faith in Woods and co. than I thought.
  6. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Rookie

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    Basically the Pats like tall/fast outside linebackers, 6-5/6-6 running 4.6ish. There were not so many of that type available this year. Guys like Crable fit their prototype. The only guy in the draft that really fit that physical mold was Michael Johnson who was an underachiever in college and never showed consistent dominance despite his physical tools. Not exactly a fit for the Pats.
  7. bakes781

    bakes781 Rookie

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    I reacted that way when Larry English went off the board. Granted he's not 6'4 but I can't imagine BB passing on a guy with that much production in college because of a couple inches.
  8. WhiZa

    WhiZa Rookie

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    Hell yea! I am going to save this thread and probably bump it around February next year.
  9. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    Why not? The entire point of this thread is Belichick saying that exact thing, and then doing that exact thing.
  10. bakes781

    bakes781 Rookie

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    Larry English was taken ahead of the Pats. Granted had they REALLY liked him they'd have traded up, but we'll never know if they felt he was worth selecting at #23. Had it been the all everything Barwin who went ahead of the Pats, we'd have a page full of told ya so threads today. So I think I'm allowed my one little rant. English's stock was consistently at the top from the beginning. You can site all the mocks/rankings you want, but I never believed he was really going to be the one to fall out of the 1st.
  11. ForThoseAboutToRock

    ForThoseAboutToRock Rookie

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    I posted this before when the Peppers rumor first started. Figured this is slightly on topic here as it demonstrates who's on the Patriots roster right now and in conjunction with Belichick's comments from above, I think shows what these guys are there for.

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...g-ne-34-mergedx3-post1318963.html#post1318963

    Last edited: Apr 27, 2009
  12. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Some it comes down to how tall player is? I have heard him say that before, tall players can disrupt passing lanes even if they don't get to the QB.

    Woodley, Porter, AD, Harrison, Merriman, etc. are not over 6'5 and they seem to be able to play the position.

    Woods, Crable, Redd are all tall but have a career total of 0 sacks. I don't think this will be the final rotation at OLB, if it is lets hope for the best. BB is smarter than me but he has been wrong before.
  13. SunnyDenmark

    SunnyDenmark Rookie

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    I agree (for what that is worth). Further, I think all the "why didn't we pick a rush OLB" crowd is forgetting that the best top QB rushers were already off the board when Pats were up to pick at spot #23:

    11 Bills Aaron Maybin DE
    13 Redskins Brian Orakpo DE
    15 Texans Brian Cushing OLB
    16 Chargers Larry English DE
    18 Broncos Robert Ayers LB

    I don't get why people can't see what many of our own PatsFans.com draftnics were saying before the draft (and before the run on QB pass rushers). Where was the value at picking at spot # 23?

    There wasn't much so BB did the right thing and traded down.
  14. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    I thought that Michael Johnson was the prototype and that would have made him too attractive for the Pats to pass on in the 2nd round. As far as consistency, Johnson showed up for big games but seemed to play down to his competition. Not your typical slacker type.

    I think there was something else in play. My guess is that the Pats didn't believe he had the mental capacity to transition effectively to their scheme/responsibilities. If that is the case, I would agree that passing on him (regardless of round) was a good choice.
  15. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    AD isn't tall but is still effective as an OLB because of his bulk/strength/speed. So I don't think that height is a disqualifying factor, but if Belichick is going to take less-than-optimal height, there better be other attributes that make up for it.

    I don't think you can judge a Pats OLB just on sack stats. It is an important piece but not the only one. Woods, Crable and Redd have as many sacks as Maybin, English and Barwin so judgements for any of them are still just projections at this point.
  16. jeffbiologist

    jeffbiologist Rookie

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    I think BB even admitted this a little while ago.....Big Willy redefined the OLB position and setting the edge to BB, not the other way around. Athlete's that tall are rare, and BB doesnt like putting a square peg in a round hole too often. He is probably a bit jaded, understandably. He stopped looking for the next LT a long time ago.
  17. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    It's a matter of value. In the first round, Belichick apparently wants the prototype in his OLBs, tall, long-armed, quick guys, and not so much the shorter or slightly slower guys, even if their college production seemingly warrants it. College production at DE is really not an indicator of NFL production at OLB, other than things like high effort and field intelligence. I could see maybe an exception for a shorter player with abnormally long arms, or maybe a player with a slower first step but off the charts instincts that would allow him to compensate. But from the Man's own lips, they weren't in the pool of first-round OLB candidates.
  18. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I hear you, I would rather have extra picks in 2010 than reach for someone who may not fit. Sign Jason Taylor and the team improves on 3rd down and has solid depth, leave Woods as a starter the OLB unit is below league average.
  19. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Maybe. But cross Cushing & Ayers off your list; neither one has pass-rush bonafides, both are best against the run. And...

    No, we'll never know for sure. BUT, every shred of evidence points against it. BB said that this class of OLBs were either too short or two slow. The Pats' current lineup of athletic young OLBs over 6'4" gives ample evidence that this wasn't just throwaway lip service. English is both short and slow, so I don't find it credible that BB was hoping to pounce on him.
  20. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    Read BB's presser.

    That is EXACTLY what BB said.
  21. Ungeheuer

    Ungeheuer Rookie

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    Uh... I don't think so. Remember Lawrence Taylor and Carl Banks? They were pretty good, too.
  22. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Mike Tanier’s Draft Wrap: The Schemes Matter - The Fifth Down Blog - NYTimes.com
    I liked English, but for NE I preferred him in the second round. With Shaun Phillips in the news with legal problems, San Diego had a critical need for an edge rusher. I'd have taken Larry English first for their system too. With any luck, Barwin will justify my analysis of his talents and help Houston rank both Tennessee and Jacksonville earlier in the draft so BB can abuse me - again - with those seconds he obtained in this draft.
  23. sg14

    sg14 Rookie

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    Thought I'd bump this thread up,,

    The fact that BB quoted size and speed as a reason not to draft someone sounded odd,, wasn't Bobby Grier the king of size-speed numbers. I always thought the Parcells tree was about production.

    I'm reading this as one or two ways,," I got multiple players that I have to coach up, all have the physical size, speed I need, think I'll pass on paying alot to get a similar player." Or "My young guys are hungry for knowledge, have a great work ethic, good size, speed, all they need is time on the field".

    Hope it's the second interpretation.

    This could be story of the year, do these young guys come thru, or fall flat on their faces, Is this the big BB gamble?

    Speaking of McGuinest, he was a very special player, #4 pick in the draft, but he was a high cut guy, long legs, agile, smart as they come, I wonder if BB sees any of that in these new guys?


  24. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Nice quote from Tanier. I think that NE clearly puts the most coverage responsibilities on their OLBs of any of the major 3-4 teams. Shawn Merriman is not required to drop into coverage much, and it's certainly not a strength of his. I doubt SD will have the same requirements of Larry English that BB will have, and I think he is much better suited to their style.
  25. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Have to disagree, Parcells has always been focused on big guys. I seem to recall him waxing eloquent on the point when he chose Bledsoe over Mirer.
  26. ALP

    ALP Rookie

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    this might be a bit off topic....but

    BB requires the OLB's to drop back into coverage at times, but he also requires the ILB's to drop back too no?

    i believe BB just wants his players to both be able to rush and drop back, so that the defense doesnt know what to expect, im sure if he wanted BB could come up w/ a way to have the OLB's rush and the ILB's drop back
  27. Box_O_Rocks

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    He did that last year.
  28. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I still think the title of the thread should be "Pass rushing OLBs ignored"
  29. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Considering the number of visits, I'd find that misleading and inaccurate.
  30. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Perhaps they felt that Crable or Redd were better than the draft board at that point when they were up to bat? I did not include Wood or TBC because they might have the lowest upside for the specific OLB/DE Rusher role and needs. If only the second two were options, the draft board might have changed. At some point in time you have to put at least some of that group of four on the field and make use of the talent or eliminate them from contention. You can't keep stock piling them until one squeaks out of the mix if and when. You need to force the issue to see who steps up. As BB and even Mayock agreed this was a weak draft. 2009 first rounders were third rounders in another draft year.

    Perhaps there is already a deal already in place for Taylor so he shows up at the last possible coordinated time to get enough reps in before the opening game. It has been said that Taylor does not want to come to OTAs because he would be away from his kids and the reason the Skins cut him is because he would not commit to their OTAs. The Pats would not want to upset the team vets by signing a player and then letting him slide until the absolute final stages of pre-season. So I am suggesting a "secret" signing might have happened. It's amazing to me that teams have not taken a swipe at him seriously at this point. The GM's of other teams might have been rebuffed by agent Gary Wichard. It is shaping up as a "Law" type of FA event.
    DW Toys
    Last edited: May 6, 2009

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