Pass rushing OLBs addressed

[dryheat44]

Keep this in mind for next year:

"I think the outside linebacker group this year was a little bit different," Belichick said. "Generally speaking, I'd say there were more shorter players, maybe a little less speed than what we've seen, but maybe a little more power with good production. There weren't a lot of 4.6, 4.65 guys in the [40-yard dash], and not a lot of 6-[foot]-4[-inch], 6-5 guys. There was a much smaller pool of those players."

FWIW, Crable, Redd, and Woods are all over 6'5". Maybe at this position it's not all about college production? Stryker Sulak had the length, but he was slow. Mike Johnson had both, so I wonder where he was rated by Belichick. Barwin and Maybin are each ~6' 4", so I wonder what would have happened had Maybin been available at #23.

Should we start beating the drum for Greg Hardy in 2010 (6'5" 260 <4.7)?

 

[mayoclinic]

Keep this in mind for next year:

"I think the outside linebacker group this year was a little bit different," Belichick said. "Generally speaking, I'd say there were more shorter players, maybe a little less speed than what we've seen, but maybe a little more power with good production. There weren't a lot of 4.6, 4.65 guys in the [40-yard dash], and not a lot of 6-[foot]-4[-inch], 6-5 guys. There was a much smaller pool of those players."

FWIW, Crable, Redd, and Woods are all over 6'5". Maybe at this position it's not all about college production? Stryker Sulak had the length, but he was slow. Mike Johnson had both, so I wonder where he was rated by Belichick. Barwin and Maybin are each ~6' 4", so I wonder what would have happened had Maybin been available at #23.

Should we start beating the drum for Greg Hardy in 2010 (6'5" 260 <4.7)?

I had Maybin as my #2 upside 3-4 OLB after Barwin, partly because he had the length. I think BB liked both of them (though I think 11 was way too high for Maybin), but I just don't think he felt OLB was as much of a need as the secondary.

I like Greg Hardy, but the guy I really like for next year is Sergio Kindle - 6'4", 256# and possibly sub 4.5 speed, with experience playing LB at Texas. He was my co-binky with Barwin in January before he decided to go back to UT for his senior year.

 

[mgteich]

The secondary and nose tackle needs were addressed in the first 3 of our 12 picks. Apparently OLB was less of a need to Belichick than lots of other positions also.

I had Maybin as my #2 upside 3-4 OLB after Barwin, partly because he had the length. I think BB liked both of them (though I think 11 was way too high for Maybin), but I just don't think he felt OLB was as much of a need as the secondary.

I like Greg Hardy, but the guy I really like for next year is Sergio Kindle - 6'4", 256# and possibly sub 4.5 speed, with experience playing LB at Texas. He was my co-binky with Barwin in January before he decided to go back to UT for his senior year.

 

[signbabybrady]

Keep this in mind for next year:

"I think the outside linebacker group this year was a little bit different," Belichick said. "Generally speaking, I'd say there were more shorter players, maybe a little less speed than what we've seen, but maybe a little more power with good production. There weren't a lot of 4.6, 4.65 guys in the [40-yard dash], and not a lot of 6-[foot]-4[-inch], 6-5 guys. There was a much smaller pool of those players."

FWIW, Crable, Redd, and Woods are all over 6'5". Maybe at this position it's not all about college production? Stryker Sulak had the length, but he was slow. Mike Johnson had both, so I wonder where he was rated by Belichick. Barwin and Maybin are each ~6' 4", so I wonder what would have happened had Maybin been available at #23.

Should we start beating the drum for Greg Hardy in 2010 (6'5" 260 <4.7)?

Me and the Friend that I watched the draft with both *****ed when Maybin came off the board.

I really think we have overated the need for LBs.

BB loves Mayo, Thomas is nasty, Bru and Tully are the Vet role players he loves, Guyton is another role player, Woods is an adequate starter, and there is a ton of young guys that all have potential Crable, Redd, Mckenzie and a few others.

 

[aaron spacemuseum]

I think BB would have pulled the trigger on Barwin if he had slid to the end of the 2nd but otherwise didn't want to invest so highly in a project -- as talented as he is, he would still require a TON of learning to be a part of this D. We have enough OLB projects on the roster that drafting another high to sit on the bench and learn for 1-2 years did not make sense. I was shocked that he passed on Sintim so many times but I guess there is more faith in Woods and co. than I thought.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Basically the Pats like tall/fast outside linebackers, 6-5/6-6 running 4.6ish. There were not so many of that type available this year. Guys like Crable fit their prototype. The only guy in the draft that really fit that physical mold was Michael Johnson who was an underachiever in college and never showed consistent dominance despite his physical tools. Not exactly a fit for the Pats.

 

[bakes781]

Me and the Friend that I watched the draft with both *****ed when Maybin came off the board.

I really think we have overated the need for LBs.

BB loves Mayo, Thomas is nasty, Bru and Tully are the Vet role players he loves, Guyton is another role player, Woods is an adequate starter, and there is a ton of young guys that all have potential Crable, Redd, Mckenzie and a few others.

I reacted that way when Larry English went off the board. Granted he's not 6'4 but I can't imagine BB passing on a guy with that much production in college because of a couple inches.

 

[WhiZa]

Keep this in mind for next year:

"I think the outside linebacker group this year was a little bit different," Belichick said. "Generally speaking, I'd say there were more shorter players, maybe a little less speed than what we've seen, but maybe a little more power with good production. There weren't a lot of 4.6, 4.65 guys in the [40-yard dash], and not a lot of 6-[foot]-4[-inch], 6-5 guys. There was a much smaller pool of those players."

FWIW, Crable, Redd, and Woods are all over 6'5". Maybe at this position it's not all about college production? Stryker Sulak had the length, but he was slow. Mike Johnson had both, so I wonder where he was rated by Belichick. Barwin and Maybin are each ~6' 4", so I wonder what would have happened had Maybin been available at #23.

Should we start beating the drum for Greg Hardy in 2010 (6'5" 260 <4.7)?

Hell yea! I am going to save this thread and probably bump it around February next year.

 

[dryheat44]

I reacted that way when Larry English went off the board. Granted he's not 6'4 but I can't imagine BB passing on a guy with that much production in college because of a couple inches.

Why not? The entire point of this thread is Belichick saying that exact thing, and then doing that exact thing.

 

[bakes781]

Why not? The entire point of this thread is Belichick saying that exact thing, and then doing that exact thing.

Larry English was taken ahead of the Pats. Granted had they REALLY liked him they'd have traded up, but we'll never know if they felt he was worth selecting at #23. Had it been the all everything Barwin who went ahead of the Pats, we'd have a page full of told ya so threads today. So I think I'm allowed my one little rant. English's stock was consistently at the top from the beginning. You can site all the mocks/rankings you want, but I never believed he was really going to be the one to fall out of the 1st.

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

I posted this before when the Peppers rumor first started. Figured this is slightly on topic here as it demonstrates who's on the Patriots roster right now and in conjunction with Belichick's comments from above, I think shows what these guys are there for.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...g-ne-34-mergedx3-post1318963.html#post1318963

For what it's worth:
S. Merriman - 6'4" 272lbs
D. Ware - 6'4" 262 lbs
M. Vrabel - 6'4" 261
W. McGinest - 6'5" 268
G. Ellis (Dallas) - 6'6" 270
J. Taylor - 6'6" 244
P. Woods - 6'5" 250
S. Crable 6'5" 234
V. Redd 6'6" 265
J. Peppers 6'7" 283 lbs

I'm not trying to insinuate anything about Peppers' potential performance as a pass rushing OLB -- but where would the comparisons begin? He'd be the biggest LB in the NFL by an inch - and guys at 6'6" are rare. There are maybe 10 6'5" LB's that I found on NFL rosters, and then a whole host of good pass rushers at 6'4". We know Belichick loves him some big players, moving Peppers off the line gives him the biggest LB in the NFL.

 

[cstjohn17]

Some it comes down to how tall player is? I have heard him say that before, tall players can disrupt passing lanes even if they don't get to the QB.

Woodley, Porter, AD, Harrison, Merriman, etc. are not over 6'5 and they seem to be able to play the position.

Woods, Crable, Redd are all tall but have a career total of 0 sacks. I don't think this will be the final rotation at OLB, if it is lets hope for the best. BB is smarter than me but he has been wrong before.

 

[SunnyDenmark]

Me and the Friend that I watched the draft with both *****ed when Maybin came off the board.

I really think we have overated the need for LBs.

BB loves Mayo, Thomas is nasty, Bru and Tully are the Vet role players he loves, Guyton is another role player, Woods is an adequate starter, and there is a ton of young guys that all have potential Crable, Redd, Mckenzie and a few others.

I agree (for what that is worth). Further, I think all the "why didn't we pick a rush OLB" crowd is forgetting that the best top QB rushers were already off the board when Pats were up to pick at spot #23:

11 Bills Aaron Maybin DE
13 Redskins Brian Orakpo DE
15 Texans Brian Cushing OLB
16 Chargers Larry English DE
18 Broncos Robert Ayers LB

I don't get why people can't see what many of our own PatsFans.com draftnics were saying before the draft (and before the run on QB pass rushers). Where was the value at picking at spot # 23?

There wasn't much so BB did the right thing and traded down.

 

[Metaphors]

Basically the Pats like tall/fast outside linebackers, 6-5/6-6 running 4.6ish. There were not so many of that type available this year. Guys like Crable fit their prototype. The only guy in the draft that really fit that physical mold was Michael Johnson who was an underachiever in college and never showed consistent dominance despite his physical tools. Not exactly a fit for the Pats.

I thought that Michael Johnson was the prototype and that would have made him too attractive for the Pats to pass on in the 2nd round. As far as consistency, Johnson showed up for big games but seemed to play down to his competition. Not your typical slacker type.

I think there was something else in play. My guess is that the Pats didn't believe he had the mental capacity to transition effectively to their scheme/responsibilities. If that is the case, I would agree that passing on him (regardless of round) was a good choice.

 

[Metaphors]

Some it comes down to how tall player is? I have heard him say that before, tall players can disrupt passing lanes even if they don't get to the QB.

Woodley, Porter, AD, Harrison, Merriman, etc. are not over 6'5 and they seem to be able to play the position.

Woods, Crable, Redd are all tall but have a career total of 0 sacks. I don't think this will be the final rotation at OLB, if it is lets hope for the best. BB is smarter than me but he has been wrong before.

AD isn't tall but is still effective as an OLB because of his bulk/strength/speed. So I don't think that height is a disqualifying factor, but if Belichick is going to take less-than-optimal height, there better be other attributes that make up for it.

I don't think you can judge a Pats OLB just on sack stats. It is an important piece but not the only one. Woods, Crable and Redd have as many sacks as Maybin, English and Barwin so judgements for any of them are still just projections at this point.

 

[jeffbiologist]

I think BB even admitted this a little while ago.....Big Willy redefined the OLB position and setting the edge to BB, not the other way around. Athlete's that tall are rare, and BB doesnt like putting a square peg in a round hole too often. He is probably a bit jaded, understandably. He stopped looking for the next LT a long time ago.

 

[dryheat44]

Some it comes down to how tall player is? I have heard him say that before, tall players can disrupt passing lanes even if they don't get to the QB.

Woodley, Porter, AD, Harrison, Merriman, etc. are not over 6'5 and they seem to be able to play the position.

Woods, Crable, Redd are all tall but have a career total of 0 sacks. I don't think this will be the final rotation at OLB, if it is lets hope for the best. BB is smarter than me but he has been wrong before.

It's a matter of value. In the first round, Belichick apparently wants the prototype in his OLBs, tall, long-armed, quick guys, and not so much the shorter or slightly slower guys, even if their college production seemingly warrants it. College production at DE is really not an indicator of NFL production at OLB, other than things like high effort and field intelligence. I could see maybe an exception for a shorter player with abnormally long arms, or maybe a player with a slower first step but off the charts instincts that would allow him to compensate. But from the Man's own lips, they weren't in the pool of first-round OLB candidates.

 

[cstjohn17]

It's a matter of value. In the first round, Belichick apparently wants the prototype in his OLBs, tall, long-armed, quick guys, and not so much the shorter or slightly slower guys, even if their college production seemingly warrants it. College production at DE is really not an indicator of NFL production at OLB, other than things like high effort and field intelligence. I could see maybe an exception for a shorter player with abnormally long arms, or maybe a player with a slower first step but off the charts instincts that would allow him to compensate. But from the Man's own lips, they weren't in the pool of first-round OLB candidates.

I hear you, I would rather have extra picks in 2010 than reach for someone who may not fit. Sign Jason Taylor and the team improves on 3rd down and has solid depth, leave Woods as a starter the OLB unit is below league average.

 

[patchick]

I think all the "why didn't we pick a rush OLB" crowd is forgetting that the best top QB rushers were already off the board when Pats were up to pick at spot #23:

11 Bills Aaron Maybin DE
13 Redskins Brian Orakpo DE
15 Texans Brian Cushing OLB
16 Chargers Larry English DE
18 Broncos Robert Ayers LB

Maybe. But cross Cushing & Ayers off your list; neither one has pass-rush bonafides, both are best against the run. And...

Larry English was taken ahead of the Pats. Granted had they REALLY liked him they'd have traded up, but we'll never know if they felt he was worth selecting at #23.

No, we'll never know for sure. BUT, every shred of evidence points against it. BB said that this class of OLBs were either too short or two slow. The Pats' current lineup of athletic young OLBs over 6'4" gives ample evidence that this wasn't just throwaway lip service. English is both short and slow, so I don't find it credible that BB was hoping to pounce on him.

 

[spacecrime]

I reacted that way when Larry English went off the board. Granted he's not 6'4 but I can't imagine BB passing on a guy with that much production in college because of a couple inches.

Read BB's presser.

That is EXACTLY what BB said.