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Pass rushing OLBs addressed


the fins did not draft any OLB and they passed on Barwin to the tuna is even better at drafting LB then BB willy mac teddy b ted johnson lawrence taylor demarcus ware all drafted by the tuna so that says one thing all of the LB in the draft dont fit the 3-4 or just not any good

Not Taylor. Parcells was a rookie head coach then. The GM, George Young, drafted Taylor, Carl Banks, and the rest of the foundation of those Super Bowl teams. It's hard to give too much credit for drafting Taylor anyway...he was a known commodity that 27 teams would have drafted first overall.
 
So what do you think the cut-off point for the 3-4 OLB is for bill. 6-4 or 6-5?
4.6, 4.65. 4.7. This eliminated the supposed "football players" like Ayers, English, and E. Brown etc., but would put slightly lower rated guys like Barwin and Kruger higher up this list. How much does length have to do with it? Why is it that AD is ok at OLB, because of his freakish long arms?

Guys supposed to go high in next's years draft that fit this mold are Texas DE/OLB Sergio Kindle, BC's Mark Herzlich (he'd be AWESOME, and i'm no BC fanboy) USF's George Selvie (long-time production, skinny legs like Crable) and 6'5 285 Florida DE Carlos Dunlap (Peppers-esque?)
 
Tuna didn't draft Ware either. Jerry Jones drafted him. Tuna wanted Spears...and got him later in the first. Score one for Jerry Jones.
 
Per Clayton, the Pats would have picked L. English if he lasted to 23,,as stated on his Seattle AM radio show,

How he knows that, I don't know,

A caller complained that the Chargers took English too high, and Clayton said the Pats were ready for him at 23.
 
Per Clayton, the Pats would have picked L. English if he lasted to 23,,as stated on his Seattle AM radio show,

How he knows that, I don't know,

A caller complained that the Chargers took English too high, and Clayton said the Pats were ready for him at 23.

Interesting to hear (about Clayton saying BB would have taken English at #23). But I am not sure I am buying it - Isn't Clayton the one that was reporting all about Pats getting Peppers? Which (while a great player) doesn't fits BB way of cap management (not too top heavy), locker room balance in pay (strong middle class) and draft philosophy (would have to give up high picks to trade for Pepper).

So not sure Clayton is the best source for Pats info....But thanks for the source anyway as I had not seen that reported before.
 
Who looks good at bottom for first in next years draft for BB's tall type OLB?

Selvie maybe?
 
Interesting to hear (about Clayton saying BB would have taken English at #23). But I am not sure I am buying it - Isn't Clayton the one that was reporting all about Pats getting Peppers? Which (while a great player) doesn't fits BB way of cap management (not too top heavy), locker room balance in pay (strong middle class) and draft philosophy (would have to give up high picks to trade for Pepper).

So not sure Clayton is the best source for Pats info....But thanks for the source anyway as I had not seen that reported before.

If Belichick were targeting English at @23, there's no way that Mr. PC would know...even a couple of weeks later. Really, if anything, that means that NE bluffed SD into taking English, but I really don't think that's true either. Just a case of an "insider" trying to prove that he's an insider by stating things that cannot be disproven.
 
If Belichick were targeting English at @23, there's no way that Mr. PC would know...even a couple of weeks later. Really, if anything, that means that NE bluffed SD into taking English, but I really don't think that's true either. Just a case of an "insider" trying to prove that he's an insider by stating things that cannot be disproven.

The only way Clayton would have heard would be thru some other team that the Pats talked to, to move up a few spots,,

You're right can't be proven, either way.

His radio show here in Seattle is very very popular, with alot of relocated NFL fans calling in.

I don't particularly like the guy, but he does have connections. He has been covering the NFL for a long time. Talk about making up a nice job for yourself.

On another aspect, did you see on that Patriots All Access they showed BB whealing and dealing, seems like part of that dialog, if I am going to give you my draft pick, then you have to tell me who you're drafting. So seems logical that BB at some point could have told someone who he was after. We'll never know.
 
On another aspect, did you see on that Patriots All Access they showed BB whealing and dealing, seems like part of that dialog, if I am going to give you my draft pick, then you have to tell me who you're drafting. So seems logical that BB at some point could have told someone who he was after. We'll never know.

I thought the same thing, and then I thought, "why wouldn't you lie?" If you tell a team who you're looking to draft, that team should call all other teams that may be interested and see if they can't get more.
 
So what do you think the cut-off point for the 3-4 OLB is for bill. 6-4 or 6-5?
4.6, 4.65. 4.7. This eliminated the supposed "football players" like Ayers, English, and E. Brown etc., but would put slightly lower rated guys like Barwin and Kruger higher up this list. How much does length have to do with it? Why is it that AD is ok at OLB, because of his freakish long arms?

Guys supposed to go high in next's years draft that fit this mold are Texas DE/OLB Sergio Kindle, BC's Mark Herzlich (he'd be AWESOME, and i'm no BC fanboy) USF's George Selvie (long-time production, skinny legs like Crable) and 6'5 285 Florida DE Carlos Dunlap (Peppers-esque?)

I can't see 290# Carlos Dunlap as an OLB. I like Herzlich as a player, but am not sure he fits well at OLB. He's more of a 4-3 SLB, or possible an ILB for the 3-4. Besides Kindle (phenomenal speed) there's 6'5" 265# Greg Hardy, 6'4" 245# Brandon Lang, and 6'5" 265# Greg Romeus. Eric Norwood is a terrific player, but at 6' 265# he would project to SILB for us (where I think he would be a stud; he's great taking on blockers and at both rushing hte passer and dropping into coverage, and has a terrific nose for the football).
 
I can't see 290# Carlos Dunlap as an OLB. I like Herzlich as a player, but am not sure he fits well at OLB. He's more of a 4-3 SLB, or possible an ILB for the 3-4. Besides Kindle (phenomenal speed) there's 6'5" 265# Greg Hardy, 6'4" 245# Brandon Lang, and 6'5" 265# Greg Romeus. Eric Norwood is a terrific player, but at 6' 265# he would project to SILB for us (where I think he would be a stud; he's great taking on blockers and at both rushing hte passer and dropping into coverage, and has a terrific nose for the football).

What do you have for height and weight on Hughes of TCU?
 
I thought the same thing, and then I thought, "why wouldn't you lie?" If you tell a team who you're looking to draft, that team should call all other teams that may be interested and see if they can't get more.

If you lie, then you lose that trading partner, plus anyone else that'll listen to him.

BB used the position, i.e. "We're picking a DB". As opposed to a name.

I would think there are certain teams where it is easier to trade with than others, I do not expect a trade with Minny/ Childress in the BB regime, ever. Baltimore is looking like a BB trade favorite, lately.
 
Anyone who still feels that BB really wanted Barwin, after passing on him over and over again... really, what makes you think so?

Or that BB actually wanted Matthews, and was surprised when GB stole him away from under his nose... c'mon, he's not that dumb to have something like that sneak up on him.

He passed on Matthews, Maualuga, Sintim, Laurinaitis, Barwin... all of our LB binkies... over and over again. Don't assume that because BB didn't draft a LB because he's satisfied with his LBs. To me, it's pretty certain that he just didn't want those guys on his team.

He was in a position to draft just about any three or four players in the draft that he wanted. I think he got exactly the guys he wanted.
 
He was in a position to draft just about any three or four players in the draft that he wanted. I think he got exactly the guys he wanted.

...where he wanted them.
 
Bill Belichick was not blowing smoke when he said that he thought the guys already on the Team and developing in his three year DE--> OLB training school were better and certainly more advanced than the rookies that were slower and smaller in this past draft.

He had drafted or picked up four developing trainees at OLB. They are Shawn Crabel 65 245# 4.6 star, Pierre Woods 6 5 250# 4.7 who has graduated after 4 years of DE-OLB training, Vincent Redd 6 6 260# 4.55 OLB who played for Groh at Virginia, and Angelo Craig 6 5 245# 4.? whose position was given to senior Connor Barwin after he graduated, but not before, at Cincinnati.

How was Matthews, a guy who never started until half way through his senior year better than, Crabel, Woods, or Redd? He wasn't.

Maybin was only a raw sophomore who left school really too early, and will need a couple of years of training to just become a normal NFL player. How is he better than Crabel, Woods or Redd? He isn't.

Barwin was not given the OLB job while Angelo Craig had it at the University of Cincinnati How was he better than Craig? He wasn't... in the eyes of his college coaches.

As I see it, the fans OLB fear is just that, fear of the unknown. BB and the Coaches see everyday, unlike us, exactly what they have at OLB, and they acted as if they didn't care about drafting an OLB candidate.

I see that Pierre Woods won the SOLB job late last season away from Vrable and then lost it three games latter when he went on IR. But he is the incumbent and young starter there, with no one to challenge him. Woods is pretty much like Meriwether after his rookie season. Fans were fearful and uncertain about him. Vince Redd looks like he has the size and style to be Pierre's backup and competitor for the tough SOLB position. SOLB is not primarily a pass rushing position. The only Criticism of Woods from fans, is that they haven't seen much from him yet as a pass rusher, yet the Coaches say he is a good pass rusher.

AD is a pro-bowler and the incumbent at WOLB, which is the primary pass rushing position. He is a good pass rusher, and a tough run defender too. There are few better than him. We need for him to stay healthy. His loss was a key to the poor pass rushing stats from last year. For experienced and proven depth, the Pats re-acquired TBC who has demonstrated on his previous stay with the Pats that he can get after QBs from the WOLB position. In addition, the Pats are grooming their prize third round draft pick of 2008, Shawn Crabel, to challenge AD for his WOLB job.

So I don't really think there is as much to fear at OLB as people think.:)

Similarly, the Pats seldom had more than three playable ILBs, and they have that now in Mayo, Guyton and Bruschi. McKenzie was drafted to augment that group and inherit Bruschi's job when he retires. He is still on course for that in 2010, despite his IR status. They have some flexibility too. AD can fill in, in an emergency. UDFA Antonio Appleby is the two-down runstuffer that fans coveted,and trained by Al Groh. But he is a specialist and only good at that. But still he may be better than Alexander, as a part time specialist reserve runstuffer for 3rd/4th and 1 situations.

So I don't really think there is as much to fear at ILB as people think.:)
 
So, as I understand your argument, Belichick is such a genius that linebackers are best gotten as undrafted free agents and trained by our coaches, as long as they have the measurables. Our future stars are Redd, Craig, Woods (if we extend him) and Guyton.

Certainly no one we could have drafted is better in our system that these three????????

And just BTW, I think that our ILB's in the SB years were just a bit better: Bruschi, Phifer and Johnson. You are fine counting on Mayo, Bruschi, and Guyton for 2009. For 2010, you seem fine with Mayo, Guyton and Mckenzie. You are fine with no backups and no Plan B.
 
So, as I understand your argument, Belichick is such a genius that linebackers are best gotten as undrafted free agents and trained by our coaches, as long as they have the measurables. Our future stars are Redd, Craig, Woods (if we extend him) and Guyton.

Certainly no one we could have drafted is better in our system that these three????????

And just BTW, I think that our ILB's in the SB years were just a bit better: Bruschi, Phifer and Johnson. You are fine counting on Mayo, Bruschi, and Guyton for 2009. For 2010, you seem fine with Mayo, Guyton and Mckenzie. You are fine with no backups and no Plan B.

Actually, until last year Belichick had done a lousy job drafting and

developing youg linebackers. Belichick inherited Willie McGinest, Tedy

Bruschi, Chris Slade, Ted Johnson and Andy Katzenmoyer when he took

over the team in 2000. He added Phifer, Cox, and Vrable in 2001,

Colvin in 2004, Beisel and Chad Brown in 2005, and Thomas in 2006.

Drafted rookies were few and far between. Developing young players

is something new.
 
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So, as I understand your argument, Belichick is such a genius that linebackers are best gotten as undrafted free agents and trained by our coaches, as long as they have the measurables. Our future stars are Redd, Craig, Woods (if we extend him) and Guyton.

Certainly no one we could have drafted is better in our system that these three????????

And just BTW, I think that our ILB's in the SB years were just a bit better: Bruschi, Phifer and Johnson. You are fine counting on Mayo, Bruschi, and Guyton for 2009. For 2010, you seem fine with Mayo, Guyton and Mckenzie. You are fine with no backups and no Plan B.

I'm certainly not sold on Redd, Woods or Guyton, and I have no opinion of Craig at all. I'm very concerned with all our LBs, with the exception of only Mayo and Thomas.

But if you're going to take a flier and invest in a player who have potential but really isn't what you're looking for, its far better to get them as un-drafted free agents than spending by a 2nd rounder on them. Smart is spending the 2nd on a guy that you're actually confident will contribute to the team.

Belichick has proven to be incredibly picky about his linebackers. He passed on David Harris, who I thought was the bomb and has played well, and Jon Beason, who's already gone to the pro-bowl. He passed on Demeco Ryan, another young pro-bowler, and Mattias Kiwanuka, even tho they both have the size he seems to want.

I actually believe that some of the LBs he passed on this year will be outstanding pros. I dont know why Patrick Chung is was rated so high-- higher than someone like Laurinaitis. But if BB has decided to be patient and only draft LBs early that fit the mold of Willie McGinest, Lawrence Taylor and Jerod Mayo, then maybe that explains why so many drafts pass and he's slow to pull the trigger at LB early. He seems content to fill the position with JAGs until he finds his guy.
 
I think we all hope the guys on the roster are good enough. Caserio's recent comments seem to indicate they're still looking for someone at that spot -- maybe there's a cap casualty they're anticipating, or maybe they're going to wait, see what they've got, and if the young guys don't pan out they'll pull the trigger on some sort of trade. We don't know.

Here's one thing I do know: the people who were hot for Connor Barwin or some of the other workout warriors in the draft should remember that Crable basically matched Barwin's combine numbers last year. In fact he was faster than Barwin. Woods, physically, isn't much different than a Lawrence Sidbury (except maybe that he's bigger than Sidbury). Both of these guys, Crable and Woods, they're nearly ideal specimens for the job. So there are a couple of young athletes with measurables already on the team. Adding more young guys with measurables at that spot through this year's draft would probably not have been a cure-all in any case.

Honestly, I think they're going to be fine at that spot, unless AD goes down with an injury early. With better corners and safeties, they'll be able to blitz a little more, and that'll really help the rush. The really big question is if Crable/Woods can handle the run downs, since neither of those guys are really all that great at shedding blocks.
 


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