OT: Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

[Zeus]

Here's what Dungy said:

"If I'm Reggie Bush, I'd give back the trophy," Dungy told Dan Patrick on Friday. But Dungy added a caveat. Dungy says he'd also say, "'You know what? I was the best player in college football. You know that and I know that. Regardless of what may or may not have happened off the field, I was the best player. So, here, you take the trophy but you won't take the memories."​

It's a curious statement. Dungy does not appear to be suggesting that Bush should return the trophy by way of acknowledging that he broke some rules and that he is willing to take responsibility for his actions. When it comes to Reggie Bush, Dungy seems to think that what happened in the football field is what really matters.

 

[ivanvamp]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

Right, and his job is to offer worthwhile opinions that he has some basis for giving. He didn't. When Gasper writes that Belichick may be too old to coach in the NFL, do you let him off the hook because he's "just doing his job", or do you criticize him for being ridiculous and talking about something that is way out of his league? Same principle applies here.

I still don't really get what your point is. Are you saying that as long as someone is 'doing their job', they should be immune to criticism, or simply that it's never valid to suggest that they stick to topics that they know?

I think when a media pundit offers his or her opinion, we are quite free to criticize it. That's part of their job too. It's the *opinion* that we should debate, not whether that person should offer an opinion. Some here have suggested that Dungy has no business sharing what he thinks Bush should do. That's nonsense. Dungy has every business to say that because NBC says that that's his job to talk about such things.

But when he does offer his opinions, those opinions are fair game for us to agree with or disagree with. So the debate here should be whether Dungy's opinions square with our own (and we can debate that in colorful fashion if we want). But the debate here should *not* be whether or not he "should" be offering those opinions in the first place.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

Listen, I hear what you're saying. Obviously what OJ "allegedly" did was worse by several orders of magnitude. But:

(1) Bush committed his wrongdoings while a student-athlete at USC. OJ committed ("allegedly") his crimes long, long after his football career was over. Apples and oranges.

(2) From (BV on Sports "The NCAA determined that Bush was ineligible for part of the 2004 season and all of the 2005 season, when he was awarded the Heisman Trophy." So if Bush shouldn't have been playing, he shouldn't have been eligible to win the Heisman.

So yeah, nobody disputes that OJ is worse, but the two situations aren't analogous at all.

That said, I doubt that Dungy would have given the trophy back.

The wrongdoings were accepting gifts, the biggest of which was a free limo ride to the Heisman Trophy presentation. Personally, I favor Saban's opinion on the matter. Most college kids out there are poor, hungry, and immature. Wave lavish gifts like that under their noses and the majority of students will probably take it. Personally, I would like to see both the institution and the NCAA take a more active role in policing these agents. Still, I'm aware that none of this excuses the fact that Bush ultimately DID accept these gifts. I just think that the infraction doesn't warrant the punishment.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

The wrongdoings were accepting gifts, the biggest of which was a free limo ride to the Heisman Trophy presentation. Personally, I favor Saban's opinion on the matter. Most college kids out there are poor, hungry, and immature. Wave lavish gifts like that under their noses and the majority of students will probably take it. Personally, I would like to see both the institution and the NCAA take a more active role in policing these agents. Still, I'm aware that none of this excuses the fact that Bush ultimately DID accept these gifts. I just think that the infraction doesn't warrant the punishment.

How is getting a limo ride bigger than living rent free, and how does getting to live rent free not warrant the punishment?

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

How is getting a limo ride bigger than living rent free, and how does getting to live rent free not warrant the punishment?

Forgot about the rent issue, to be honest. For me, the bigger question is why the NCAA and USC didn't know about that sooner. I'm also confused as to why Bush should have to give back his Heisman because his parents were living rent free for a year.

 

[ivanvamp]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

Forgot about the rent issue, to be honest. For me, the bigger question is why the NCAA and USC didn't know about that sooner.

I'm not at all convinced that USC *didn't* know.

 

[Calciumee]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

I'm not at all convinced that USC *didn't* know.

I am pretty sure that they knew

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

I'm also confused as to why Bush should have to give back his Heisman because his parents were living rent free for a year.

He was found to have taken things that he's not allowed to.


Look, as a former college athlete who was subject to this sort of silliness, let me put it this way:

The NCAA sucks ass. It's an organization that would improve the world if it disbanded. However, as despicable an entity as it is, it does partially govern this situation, and it does have its rules. Bush knew the rules, and he willingly violated them. If the punishment from that disgrace of a governing body is that Bush is considered to have been ineligible for the games that won him the Heisman, that's just the way it is. If that means that he doesn't deserve the Heisman, that's the price paid for breaking the rules.

Dungy's right on this. Bush should give back the Heisman. It's a trophy, and nothing more. For his whole life, he'll know that he was considered the best player in college football one year, regardless of whether or not he's in possession of the signifying item. He can keep the newspaper clippings to remind him in his forgetful years.

Hell, he can hold a press conference giving it back, and call out the NCAA for the rules while he's at it, if that's the way he feels.

 

[Patspsycho]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

Saint Dumpy strikes again.

 

[Zeus]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

The NCAA sucks ass. It's an organization that would improve the world if it disbanded.

Sad but true. The NCAA is a greedy, hypocritical disgrace.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

He was found to have taken things that he's not allowed to.


Look, as a former college athlete who was subject to this sort of silliness, let me put it this way:

The NCAA sucks ass. It's an organization that would improve the world if it disbanded. However, as despicable an entity as it is, it does partially govern this situation, and it does have its rules. Bush knew the rules, and he willingly violated them. If the punishment from that disgrace of a governing body is that Bush is considered to have been ineligible for the games that won him the Heisman, that's just the way it is. If that means that he doesn't deserve the Heisman, that's the price paid for breaking the rules.

Dungy's right on this. Bush should give back the Heisman. It's a trophy, and nothing more. For his whole life, he'll know that he was considered the best player in college football one year, regardless of whether or not he's in possession of the signifying item. He can keep the newspaper clippings to remind him in his forgetful years.

Hell, he can hold a press conference giving it back, and call out the NCAA for the rules while he's at it, if that's the way he feels.

And meanwhile, the scumbag agent that hovered all of these gifts under his nose gets away scot free. Sorry, but I can't blame the kid for wanting to make his mother's life and his life a little easier. The majority of people in that situation would. That's just me. The punishment for USC is fitting because, after all, they are/were the ones that should have been policing this in the first place. To take away the Heisman Trophy is a bit of an overkill.

 

[Mogamedogz]

It's a ******* TROPHEY.

He should give it back, and have another one made. He can put it on the podium with him after every Saints game and have Kim Kardashian hold on to it while he...uh...nevermind.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

And meanwhile, the scumbag agent that hovered all of these gifts under his nose gets away scot free. Sorry, but I can't blame the kid for wanting to make his mother's life and his life a little easier. The majority of people in that situation would. That's just me. The punishment for USC is fitting because, after all, they are/were the ones that should have been policing this in the first place. To take away the Heisman Trophy is a bit of an overkill.

The agent doesn't matter. He's not what's being talked about. I want to make my life better and improve the life of my mother. Does that mean I should be excused for robbing banks? The kid broke one of the most 'important' rules of the NCAA. Losing the Heisman isn't even a wrist slap.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

The agent doesn't matter. He's not what's being talked about. I want to make my life better and improve the life of my mother. Does that mean I should be excused for robbing banks? The kid broke one of the most 'important' rules of the NCAA. Losing the Heisman isn't even a wrist slap.

Robbing a bank isn't exactly a great comparison for accepting free rent for your mother on the promise to pay it back after you get drafted. And yes, the agent does matter. Without action by the agent, none of this would have happened. If you're going to throw blame on Bush for accepting gifts, then you should at least throw blame on the agent for offering them to him in the first place. Ignoring that area makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

Robbing a bank isn't exactly a great comparison for accepting free rent for your mother on the promise to pay it back after you get drafted. And yes, the agent does matter. Without action by the agent, none of this would have happened. If you're going to throw blame on Bush for accepting gifts, then you should at least throw blame on the agent for offering them to him in the first place. Ignoring that area makes absolutely no sense.

Actions that violate the rules in order to improve lifestyle. Same kind, different degree.

And, no, the agent doesn't matter. It's a separate issue. Dungy was commenting on what he'd do if he were Bush, not what he'd do if he were the agent.

 

[goheels22002]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

How is getting a limo ride bigger than living rent free, and how does getting to live rent free not warrant the punishment?

That is exactly the right question. Neither a limo ride nor having free housing the point. The NCAA is a self-righteous paranoid organization trying to sustain 20th Century values that just plain do not apply in the 21st Century TV/internet era.

DI, you are the king of posters and shouldn't worry about such 20th Century issues. You are a person of the 21st Century and should turn your focus to why the NCAA resists the Iron Age. Focus. my friend.

Reggie Bush did what the USC system permitted in the 21st Century and took every hit, every opening created by his offensive line, and every crappy pass that Matt Leinert laid out there and earned, Earned his Heisman. Doug Flutie has it right. He won that Heisman on the field with every LB and DB trying to take his head off.

Let's move on from this and try to get the NCAA to wise up.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

Actions that violate the rules in order to improve lifestyle. Same kind, different degree.

And, no, the agent doesn't matter. It's a separate issue. Dungy was commenting on what he'd do if he were Bush, not what he'd do if he were the agent.

Actually a bank robbery isn't a violation of a rule. It's a violation of a law. What Reggie Bush did was a violation of a rule. What the Patriots did in 2007 was a violation of a rule. Both were overkilled on their punishments.

And the agent doesn't matter in the context of this particular conversation. In the entire picture, the agent matters very much. Surely the fact that he's going to walk away from this scot free must turn your stomach at least a little?

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

Actually a bank robbery isn't a violation of a rule. It's a violation of a law. What Reggie Bush did was a violation of a rule. What the Patriots did in 2007 was a violation of a rule. Both were overkilled on their punishments.

Rules of society vs. Rules of the NCAA. Again, same in kind, different in degree. Also, Bush is getting off light. The rule sucks, but he knew damned well what he was doing when he broke it, and he's lucky that he'll be the 'name' case moving forward, because I won't be surprised if the NFL finds a way to work in fines/supensions into a future CBA to cover the next time this sort of thing happens..

And the agent doesn't matter in the context of this particular conversation. In the entire picture, the agent matters very much. Surely the fact that he's going to walk away from this scot free must turn your stomach at least a little?

Not even a little bit. The NCAA is the problem, since its rules regarding income for athletes are absolutely ridiculous. That doesn't excuse Bush, though. It does excuse agents, though, since they aren't subject to those same idiotic rules.

If it's something the NCAA wants fixed, it'll find a way to 'convince' the NFL to address this. That will compound the problem, but the NCAA doesn't really care about that, as long as it can increase its control.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

Rules of society vs. Rules of the NCAA. Again, same in kind, different in degree.

They aren't the same in kind at all. One entails taking a loaded weapon into a bank and robbing them of hundreds of thousands, even millions of dollars. It's stealing and it's against the law in every country in the world. The other isn't stealing at all. Nor is it against the law. It entails receiving a gift for free at the time with a promise to pay it back later.

Also, Bush is getting off light. The rule sucks, but he knew damned well what he was doing when he broke it, and he's lucky that he'll be the 'name' case moving forward, because I won't be surprised if the NFL finds a way to work in fines/supensions into a future CBA to cover the next time this sort of thing happens..

I don't think he's getting off light, at all. He was a hungry college kid who had some money dangled under his nose. For that, I can't fault him for trying to make his life better. He violated the rules and has been ruled ineligable for the 2004-2005 season. On top of that, the University which was supposed to be policing their players had to vacate wins and possibly a National Title. All memory of him and his accomplishments is being systematically wiped out. If you ask me, that's punishment enough without taking the trophy that he rightfully earned away from him.

See, you've even said yourself that the NCAA rules are out of whack (going so far as to even call them "the problem") when it comes to players and money. Having acknowledged that, I'm not sure how you can support further punishment for the guy.

Not even a little bit. The NCAA is the problem, since its rules regarding income for athletes are absolutely ridiculous. That doesn't excuse Bush, though. It does excuse agents, though, since they aren't subject to those same idiotic rules.

If it's something the NCAA wants fixed, it'll find a way to 'convince' the NFL to address this. That will compound the problem, but the NCAA doesn't really care about that, as long as it can increase its control.

It's a shame. Because, while the kids are still playing, the agents should have absolutely no contact whatsoever with the student athletes until they declare and their bowl games are over. The fact that they do is a shame in and of itself. Without the agent in question, this wouldn't be a problem. However, I do agree that limiting agent/student contact would be ridiculously hard to police for the NCAA. That's why the school should have done a better job looking into it for themselves. After all, these kids are supposed to be under their control.

 

[WhoaDirty]

Re: OT:Tony Dungy says, if he were Reggie Bush, he'd give back the Heisman

Rules of society vs. Rules of the NCAA. Again, same in kind, different in degree. Also, Bush is getting off light. The rule sucks, but he knew damned well what he was doing when he broke it, and he's lucky that he'll be the 'name' case moving forward, because I won't be surprised if the NFL finds a way to work in fines/supensions into a future CBA to cover the next time this sort of thing happens..

How is Bush getting off light, what more could be done to him?

I can't see the player's union ever letting retroactive suspensions like that happen. That would be like my current employer suspending me for that time I screwed up those TPS reports at my last job.