Ocho Released

[Ring 6]

I don't honestly think for a moment that Bill considered that Chad's football IQ was self limited... I think he though that while he may have gotten by on talent he was eminently coachable. Turns out he wasn't. Not that he wasn't willing to try, at least for this coach and QB, but he really lacks the capacity or discipline or instincts to grasp a complicated offense. Ergo he was at a total loss to execute within it in real time under pressure. I think he allowed his admiration for the athlete (coupled with his appreciation for the light hearted and seemingly harmless persona) cloud his judgement. He didn't do his homework because his instincts failed him. Always do your homework is the lesson to be learned. There were lots of folks who could have told him what it was like to work with Chad. It wouldn't have all been sour grapes, we know that for a fact now. Have to learn to read between the lines and not just discount what you hear because you like what you see. And two draft picks and $6M and a roster spot for a player who might yet have developed is a substantial enough loss that you wouldn't want to repeat it frequently.

I guess we just differ on this one.
There is no reasonable way to find out ahead of time if 85 was smart enough to learn the system.
The cap space was not needed, we still had excess.
The draft picks were worth the risk.
If you are suggesting BB should never acquire a player who succeeded in another system because he may not get this one, I think that is naive, and would eliminate trading.
You could have made the exact same argument about Moss.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Mediots knew. Fans didn't want to hear it. He's charming, so most mediots didn't want to pummel him in print out of the gate, either. Guys who do the job right get information in background, it's not meant for soundbites or verbatim public consumption. It's to allow you to form what will in the end be a sound perspective in covering the team. Bedard got more than most because he's a real reporter, even though he's working as a columnist. Some of the young guns didn't come up through the ranks as journnalists, and it shows. They started out as bloggers and the like in the new 24/7 format where everyone is competing for hits by tweeting scoops. And they have to have something to sell themselves with on radio gigs. Few are patient enough to build relationships let alone within a team than is pretty closed mouthed. Many rely on agents and talkative opposition staffers for insight.

I just came across two articles over on the Planet that I hadn't seen. Although I had heard Bedard increasingly comment in general about Chad simply not getting it. And he sounded to me like a guy who was really tapped in on the subject. I think he got a lot of access and insight during the playoffs and pre Superbowl week.

Both pieces are spot on. I will say again, I had figured something out that Bill and apparently lots of folks including in the media hadn't. And I can't for the life of me figure out how that happens unless measurables talent (athleticism) really is too often clearly so intoxicating to those constantly surrounded by it it befuddles them. I knew Chad wouldn't work out and I knew why. But then I'd only dispassionately observed him and his career from afar. Maybe Bill needs to spend more time watching games on broadcast TV or surfing the interweb or something...screw the all 22 tape and the combine and the chalkboard!!

Greg A. Bedard of The Boston Globe spoke to multiple sources over the course of last season who claimed Ochocinco just didn't get it. Coaches would instruct Ochocinco on how to run a route, only to have him forget minutes later.

Patriots receivers coach Chad O'Shea broke it down for Bedard at the Super Bowl:

"At times, there are four decisions that a receiver needs to make after the snap the way our offense is," O'Shea said. "That's one of the advantages of our offense, that we give players a lot of flexibility within the system to take what the defense gives us. And that’s definitely something that's unique about our offense."

This is not the Cincinnati Bengals. Much is asked of Patriots wideouts, both on the field and in weekly preparation for the opponent. One week, you're at the center of the game plan; the next you're a decoy. We've seen New England bring back Deion Branch and Jabar Gaffney for exactly this reason. They've proven they can roll with the system and Tom Brady feels comfortable with them. Ochocinco never developed that connection with his quarterback.

Chad Ochocinco reportedly had trouble with routes - NFL.com

Talent alone can't save you in this town. And maybe that's where the disconnect was -- for Ocho and for all. When he took the field, the No. 85 on his back stood for seven 1,000-plus yard receiving seasons. It promised 70-yard touchdown catches. For all the weapons the Patriots offense had, this -- deep wideout threat -- was the one they lacked. The one that would make them unstoppable.

For it all to fall apart because he wouldn't, or couldn't, learn the system? Inconceivable.

When Ochocinco dropped passes in training camp, it was dismissed as growing pains. When he caught just three balls in preseason, it was shrugged off as the rich's irresponsibility for time. When he said he was content to play receiver-by-committee -- The Brand surrendering to The Common Good -- it was seen as blushing modesty.

He's a man who never wanted to do homework. He struggled in high school and college -- blowing off classes for whatever else. Talent was always there to grab him by the scruff and keep him in the game.

In Cincinnati, he was the offense. In New England, he had to start over. And it was complex. The Patriots wouldn't bend to meet him. In fact, they'd scoff at the thought.

"All he needs is time. He didn't have an offseason. He'll put his head in the playbook this spring," the chorus sang.

Why think that? He'd never done it before. He didn't even do it during his most successful years in Black and Orange. The Boston Globe's Greg Bedard writes that Ocho wasn't brilliant so much as Carson Palmer and the Bengals "had a feel for where [he] would end up" and met him there.

But we didn't see that. Maybe the Patriots didn't see that before bringing him in.

Trouble happened when Brady found out. Early.

Paoletti: Ochocinco never caught on with Patriots

 

[Ring 6]

Mediots knew. Fans didn't want to hear it. He's charming, so most mediots didn't want to pummel him in print out of the gate, either. Guys who do the job right get information in background, it's not meant for soundbites or verbatim public consumption. It's to allow you to form what will in the end be a sound perspective in covering the team. Bedard got more than most because he's a real reporter, even though he's working as a columnist. Some of the young guns didn't come up through the ranks as journnalists, and it shows. They started out as bloggers and the like in the new 24/7 format where everyone is competing for hits by tweeting scoops. And they have to have something to sell themselves with on radio gigs. Few are patient enough to build relationships let alone within a team than is pretty closed mouthed. Many rely on agents and talkative opposition staffers for insight.

I just came across two articles over on the Planet that I hadn't seen. Although I had heard Bedard increasingly comment in general about Chad simply not getting it. And he sounded to me like a guy who was really tapped in on the subject. I think he got a lot of access and insight during the playoffs and pre Superbowl week.

Both pieces are spot on. I will say again, I had figured something out that Bill and apparently lots of folks including in the media hadn't. And I can't for the life of me figure out how that happens unless measurables talent (athleticism) really is too often clearly so intoxicating to those constantly surrounded by it it befuddles them. I knew Chad wouldn't work out and I knew why. But then I'd only dispassionately observed him and his career from afar. Maybe Bill needs to spend more time watching games on broadcast TV or surfing the interweb or something...screw the all 22 tape and the combine and the chalkboard!!




Chad Ochocinco reportedly had trouble with routes - NFL.com








Paoletti: Ochocinco never caught on with Patriots

OK, I'll stop here and chalk this up to you feel you where a better judge of the player from your living room than BB, with contacts throughout the league, after coaching against him and knowing him pretty well.
Also, that you know what BB thought and are convinced he had no clue that there could be a potential issue when he traded low round picks for a guy, and never elevated him up the depth chart.
I think with that said, there is no point in discussing.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

OK, I'll stop here and chalk this up to you feel you where a better judge of the player from your living room than BB, with contacts throughout the league, after coaching against him and knowing him pretty well.
Also, that you know what BB thought and are convinced he had no clue that there could be a potential issue when he traded low round picks for a guy, and never elevated him up the depth chart.
I think with that said, there is no point in discussing.

You know, I was half way through another reasoned response to your last post to me, but you're right, no point discussing it. You and I are homers, but that's where any similarity ends because I'm not a blind homer. Bill makes mistakes, not many and not usually costly. This one was in more ways than one and it was totally avoidable and you don't have to be an x's and o's genius to figure that out, just a student of human nature. Apparently Bill didn't know Chad all that well.

 

[The Gr8est]

I guess we just differ on this one.
There is no reasonable way to find out ahead of time if 85 was smart enough to learn the system.
The cap space was not needed, we still had excess.
The draft picks were worth the risk.
If you are suggesting BB should never acquire a player who succeeded in another system because he may not get this one, I think that is naive, and would eliminate trading.
You could have made the exact same argument about Moss.

I disagree that the draft pick price was worth it. There were reports that the Bengals were going to release Ocho if they couldn't trade him (kind of what BB was, reportedly, trying to do before releasing Ocho himself). Given Ocho's admiration for BB, I think he would have given the Pats first shot at signing him, and we could have saved those valuable draft picks.

I can understand the trade for Haynesworth, since there would have been competition for his services, but Ocho seems like an easier sign as a FA.

I was never a proponent of acquiring Ocho, and I still do not understand what everyone sees in him and his antics, to me he is the classic "Emperor Has No Clothes" player, in that no one else seems to notice that he's naked, and instead want to compliment him on his fancy new duds.

Regardless, I would have been much happier with the whole thing if we didn't have to give up those picks for him.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Option anxiety was Chad Ochocinco

 

[Ring 6]

I disagree that the draft pick price was worth it. There were reports that the Bengals were going to release Ocho if they couldn't trade him (kind of what BB was, reportedly, trying to do before releasing Ocho himself). Given Ocho's admiration for BB, I think he would have given the Pats first shot at signing him, and we could have saved those valuable draft picks.

I can understand the trade for Haynesworth, since there would have been competition for his services, but Ocho seems like an easier sign as a FA.

I was never a proponent of acquiring Ocho, and I still do not understand what everyone sees in him and his antics, to me he is the classic "Emperor Has No Clothes" player, in that no one else seems to notice that he's naked, and instead want to compliment him on his fancy new duds.

Regardless, I would have been much happier with the whole thing if we didn't have to give up those picks for him.

Considering that it is BBs job to know the market, that he knows the player, and that he was negotiating, I think I will go on the assumption that he needed to make the trade to get the player, over yours that he was ingorant to these facts that you feel were blatantly obvious from your computer desk.

 

[Ring 6]

You know, I was half way through another reasoned response to your last post to me, but you're right, no point discussing it. You and I are homers, but that's where any similarity ends because I'm not a blind homer. Bill makes mistakes, not many and not usually costly. This one was in more ways than one and it was totally avoidable and you don't have to be an x's and o's genius to figure that out, just a student of human nature. Apparently Bill didn't know Chad all that well.

So, since I agree it was a mistake, but I have the opinion that there isn't a lesson to be learned in taking a chance on a player who may or may not make it, whether they do (Moss) or don't (85) that makes me a homer?
You must be kidding. Surely you have more intellect than to dismiss a discussion about the risks of acquiring players and whether one risky transaction not working out should alter your approach than to bury your head in the stand and create such a strawman.
Please explain how either side of this discussion could be viewed as more pro- or anti- Patriot, because it actually has entirely nothing to do with it.
You know better.

And the part about you claiming prescient insight was simply to illustrate the silliness of such a position, not to comment on the right or wrong of the move.

 

[everlong]

Haynesworth and Chad were still worth the risk to me. FA's are by nature high risk. Dwayne Starks and Derrick Burgess cost third rounders so in my mind were much bigger FA busts. Welker (second and seventh), Moss (4th) and Dillon (2nd) were big successes and were considered big risks at the time.

Bill does make mistakes and at times some big ones. He just makes less than everybody else.

 

[Ring 6]

Haynesworth and Chad were still worth the risk to me. FA's are by nature high risk. Dwayne Starks and Derrick Burgess cost third rounders so in my mind were much bigger FA busts. Welker (second and seventh), Moss (4th) and Dillon (2nd) were big successes and were considered big risks at the time.

Bill does make mistakes and at times some big ones. He just makes less than everybody else.

IN RETROSPECT they were NOT worth the risk.
However given the cost and the background of the player such level of risk is warranted.
The decision was bad, the philosophy was not.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Days later..and i am still in so much love with this move

 

[RayClay]

You know, I was half way through another reasoned response to your last post to me, but you're right, no point discussing it. You and I are homers, but that's where any similarity ends because I'm not a blind homer. Bill makes mistakes, not many and not usually costly. This one was in more ways than one and it was totally avoidable and you don't have to be an x's and o's genius to figure that out, just a student of human nature. Apparently Bill didn't know Chad all that well.

Yep, greatest coach evah makes a huge misjudgment on this one. Totally uncharacteristic and it wasn't exactly a secret.

Lewis knows a divorce is coming, and he’s finally free to say whatever he wants about his star wide receiver. Lewis is coaching at the Senior Bowl on Monday and was asked by Ian Rapoport of the Boston Herald how Ochocinco would fit with the Patriots.

“Belichick is smarter than that,” Lewis said.

Marvin Lewis: Belichick is too smart to go after Ochocinco | ProFootballTalk

 

[RayClay]

Haynesworth and Chad were still worth the risk to me. FA's are by nature high risk. Dwayne Starks and Derrick Burgess cost third rounders so in my mind were much bigger FA busts. Welker (second and seventh), Moss (4th) and Dillon (2nd) were big successes and were considered big risks at the time.

Bill does make mistakes and at times some big ones. He just makes less than everybody else.

Well put. Although Haynesworth is an A hole, his sheer mass made that experiment worthwhile IMO. Had he been compliant and just a bit undisciplined, he could have still been a force.

Unfortunately, our passing game doesn't work that way. Wrong decisions cause interceptions and Tom would rather never throw to you than risk interceptions because you can't make the right move reliably.

 

[Guimond3434]

Both Haynesworth and Ocho were well worth the risk, IMO. Nothing prior to last year showed anyone that Ocho was going to suck as bad as he did with us. It's always easy to say "that was a mistake" in hindsight....but at the time, who really could blame BB for taking a risk on Ocho? Ocho showed nothing in his career to indicate he would of been THIS bad with us. Worth the risk. And it just didn't work. I'm not going to fault BB for it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Per Rotoworld:

The Dolphins did not sign free agent WR Chad Ochocinco immediately following his workout.
Ochocinco wasn't impressive enough to get signed by the receiver-needy Dolphins on the spot. As beat writer Ben Volin puts it, they'll "keep him in their back pocket." At this point, Ochocinco doesn't have any team beating down his door. He'll be 35 in January and has shown very poorly on tape over the last two seasons.

Then there is this from an NFL.com writer who reasearched several FO's for their thinking on what Ocho has left:

1) This AFC executive was very brief and to the point: "We don't have any interest in him. He doesn't have any juice left and he's not smart enough to learn our offense."

2) This NFC pro scout was on the fence: "I do think he still has some life in his legs, but the mental concerns are what trouble me."

3) This AFC executive had a very interesting opinion: "I don't have a clue what you are going to get with him and neither does anybody else. He didn't show enough on tape last year to get a good feel for him."

4) This NFC pro scout had positive things to say: "I really liked him on 2010 tape with the Bengals. I was disappointed that our team didn't sign him. I think he still has something left."

5) This NFC executive was very critical: "He doesn't have much left. He has to play outside because he doesn't have the toughness to work in the middle of the field. He can't stretch the field anymore and he doesn't have any special teams value."

6) This NFC pro scout echoed a previous statement: "I liked him in 2010. I just don't think he was a fit in New England."

7) This NFC executive did extensive homework on Ochocinco's time in New England: "He was a great teammate. I was told he worked extremely hard and wasn't a distraction. When you watch the tape, he still has juice and he ran good routes. The biggest issue is the mental thing. You can watch him constantly line up in the wrong spot or forget to line up on the ball when he is the 'X' receiver. Simple stuff. This wasn't just an issue in New England either. He had some trouble in Cincinnati, as well."

Seems like scouts see more while execs see less. I'd say 5 and 7 kind of sum it up for me.

Chad Ochocinco's current value? League executives weigh in - NFL.com

 

[everlong]

IN RETROSPECT they were NOT worth the risk.
However given the cost and the background of the player such level of risk is warranted.
The decision was bad, the philosophy was not.

I'm not sure what the difference is between what I said and what you're saying. Maybe just semantics.

If the same situation came up X years from now and it was Suh and Bowe, as examples, I'm sure for the right cost he would do it all over again.

 

[Triumph]

You know, I was half way through another reasoned response to your last post to me, but you're right, no point discussing it. You and I are homers, but that's where any similarity ends because I'm not a blind homer. Bill makes mistakes, not many and not usually costly. This one was in more ways than one and it was totally avoidable and you don't have to be an x's and o's genius to figure that out, just a student of human nature. Apparently Bill didn't know Chad all that well.

I keep thinking that BB didnt do a background check on Sinko. The whole move just doesnt add up with draft picks and the money they gave him.

 

[Triumph]

Too true. Elite money.

Which brings the discussion back to Welker who was incredibly productive, whose salary last year was what again...? $700k IIRC

If anybody deserves praise for not complaining last season its Wes Welker.

Not Stinko and his $5.75 Million.

 

[Triumph]

Given that you have no idea how many hours per day Johnson studied, I'd suggest that your posts are increasing in their ridiculousness.

Ignorant

Word is coming out now that Johnson was lazy and did not want to put in the extra effort to learn the playbook. Many of you will point to the Pats saying that "Ocho is working hard" as some sort of glowing endorsement.
Hilarious indeed. The Patriots have never thrown a player thats struggling under the bus via the media.

Not Bethel, Maroney, Butler, Hayes, Terry Glenn.

 

[Triumph]

Days later..and i am still in so much love with this move

The water is Ron Braces whirpool tub just got hotter.

One doesnt have to suspend disbelief to think he is next to hit the road.