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Discussion in 'Visiting Locker Room' started by JaxPats, Oct 30, 2008.

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  1. JaxPats

    JaxPats Rookie

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    1) What team do you have allegiance too?
    2) Why do you come here and bring up the past?
    3) What is your motive for doing so?
    4) Do you have a problem with accepting that the Patriots broke a rule ( and paid the price) and do you really think no other team has ever broke a rule?
    5) Do you hate the Pats?

    I'm betting you can't answer them honestly.:snob:
  2. NFL_Truth

    NFL_Truth Rookie

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    You could have just posted this in the post designated for this but since you took the time, absolutley mate, I'll answer anything you ask, honestly too.

    1) The team i have allegiance too is the Minnesota Vikings. So you could say Im a fan who was probably least directly effected by spygate. But when I saw how big it was and what happened as a result, just being a fan of the league and its history, I had to speak out against it.

    2) I've come on here and discussed past events because i've heard what fans of the other 31 teams think, they agree with me which is fine so i wanted to hear what real patriots fans thought without simply assuming for myself.

    3) My motive for doing so is a few things. I have felt that the Patriots and their fans who chose to play spygate down, not accept the truth, accuse other teams without foundation to lessen their own actions, and who can be straight up rude need to hear the other side as well. I've heard every argumemt posted on this board thousands of times. In real life though people just get angry and walk away, on the board it gives the chance to discuss this. I honestly was not planning to stay nearly as long but as soon as the rude comments and excuses started pouring it, I knew i needed to stay.

    4) There is nothing i have an issue accepting. I do know they broke a rule but severely cheated in the process. What they did messes with the integrity of the sport I love, cost other teams games, players their positions, etc. As far as their punishment, I like most others see it as a slap on the wrist and a sweep under the carpet as the punishment was not even on the same stratosphere as the crime. I do not think the pats are the only team to ever break a rule. Rules get broken all the time but spying, videotaping, and jamming signals goes far beyond simply breaking a rule. Do i think they are the first team to ever cheat? No, and as i said any team that has cheated deserves to face the punishment, even if it was the vikings. But i certainly see them as the only team to ever cheat to this extent and they certainly reaped the rewards of that.

    5) Hate is an awfully strong word that gets thrown around way too much. The minute you say something bad about a team they label you as a "hater" with zero foundation. That's just attempting to question my character and bias in order to make my accusations seem influenced therefore less accurate. But i'm certainly no hater. For many years I always respected the Patriots, no question. I never thought Brady was as good as Manning, but beyond that I felt they had the best team, they were winners, etc. But after seeing all the dirty things they had been doing for years, seeing the way they acted in the 2006 divisional game vs SD, pushing LT around in a circle, dancing. Seeing how Belichick refused to shake Manning's hand after the 18-point comeback in 06 when I remember seeing Manning shake his hand in defeat in 2003. Seeing some of their players arrested for drugs, Harrison for HGH, Wilfork getting off without suspensions for dirty hits...You see this list could go on and on and you'd just call it "hating" but its not. Its disappointing for me to see a team i once respected exposed like this. So of course the combination of such behavior is disgusting and disgraceful. But to answer your question, No, I don't hate the Patriots but I do very much dislike what they've done and how they carry themselves.
  3. LeonPowe

    LeonPowe Banned

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    How long have you been watching football?
  4. NFL_Truth

    NFL_Truth Rookie

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    12 years......
  5. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Do you regularly speak out about things that you are mis-informed about? Do you regularly not check your facts before getting into a conversation on a topic?

    You've heard what a select few fans of other teams have voiced their opinions on. Based on your posting style, you've ignored the ones who are against your ludicrous claims.


    You've already proven you don't know or understand the truth. You've proven that you can't accept reality and that you can't accept that other teams HAVE done so. You were given proof of the Jets doing the exact same thing.

    I think that you are full of garbage that you had no intent of staying here this long. There haven't been excuses. We've been the ones providing the truth. You are the one who has been ignoring it.



    You clearly have an issue accepting the truth. You clearly do not understand that breaking a rule does not equal cheating. And you clearly aren't intelligent enough to understand that nothing the Patriots did messed with the integrity of the game. Certainly not to the magnitude of what the Vikings did when they talked to Favre while he was still a member of the Packers. Certainly not to the magnitude of the Broncos or 49ers cheating of the salary cap.

    There has not been ANY proof that the Patriots jammed anyone's signals. Also, since you don't understand about the coaching headsets, they are set up by the LEAGUE officials. They are given frequencies to use for each game. And those frequencies change on a regular basis. What people like yourself don't understand is that companies in the world regularly use walkie-talkies and frequencies that are not registered to them and sometimes it crosses with frequencies that ARE being used legally. I know this for a fact because when I worked in New Hampshire at a company, we had a frequency that we were using that got assigned to Southwest Airlines. And one of our employees ended up talking to a flight crew that was on approach to the Manchester, NH airport. The FCC was NOT happy with the company and we got a very HEAVY fine.


    There are players on every team who get arrested for drugs, not just the Patriots. They are human beings. Is it right? Nope. Have Pats fans spoken out against them? Yep. And you'll notice that Andrews is gone after his 2nd beef with the law.

    If you dislike the Patriots for what they've done, how can you like the Vikings when people in their organization have committed acts that were as bad or worse? Like the whole BOAT incident? Like the coach scalping his SB ticket?

    Face it, you are a hypocrite. You have one rule for the Patriots and another rule for the rest of the league.
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  6. NFL_Truth

    NFL_Truth Rookie

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    Now this is what I'm talking about. Although the fact is I certainly do know what im talking about, the excuses do not bring fourth a good explanation and the lack of evidence combined with frivilous accusations of other teams can never justify the biggest cheating scandal in league history.

    Did the Jets do the same thing? Mangini worked under Belichick, no surprise there. Is it wrong, hell yes, just as wrong as the pats but it has not been done for as long if it has been being done. So all you've done is make the Jets look bad..bravo. But the Patriots are much worse.
  7. Jetssuck

    Jetssuck Rookie

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    The biggest cheating scandal? Says who, all the other fans like yourself, jealous that the Patriots are better than your team.
  8. NFL_Truth

    NFL_Truth Rookie

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    Who says, everyone who sees that the Patriots cheated more then any team in NFL history with all of the proof to back it up. Its not a matter of jelousy, I'm a vikings fan and i'm no more jelous of NE then i'd be of other SB winning teams, it just so happens it was the Patriots alone who cheated to this extent.
  9. Jetssuck

    Jetssuck Rookie

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    They didn't cheat. 2006 memo...Superbowls won 2001, 2003, and 2004.

    You're probably not a Vikings fan either. Everything you type is a lie, including your periods and commas.
  10. NFL_Truth

    NFL_Truth Rookie

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    The memo has nothing to do with the rule that has always been. Just because a the league reminds teams of an existing rule in 2006 does not mean breaking the existing rule in prior years is acceptable.
  11. LeonPowe

    LeonPowe Banned

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    How does it feel that your team is so bad they can't even win a Super Bowl?
  12. Jetssuck

    Jetssuck Rookie

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    Than the league should have not issued a memo and just set up a sting against the Pats in 2006 instead of 2007. A memo would not be necessary if the league was not trying to say filming would not be tolerated any longer.
  13. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    You DON'T no what you are talking about and you've clearly shown it. There were no excuses present on my part. There are not frivolous accusations about other teams doing it. Go to the FRAMe website. It has photos of the Jets doing it in the SAME GAME that they turned the Pats in. Also, Jimmy Johnson admitted to taping.

    Also, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you are so ignorant to call it cheating. How was it cheating? How did the films affect the games that were being played at the time? I have news for you, they didn't. None of the tapings were used during the games in which the taping occured. THAT'S FACT.

    The Patriots aren't "much worse". You just can't comprehend the difference between breaking a rule and actual cheating.
  14. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey


    What proof? The video from the Chargers game that showed them filming the Charger's cheerleader's asses? Seriously man. You really don't know what you are talking about.

    The Patriots DID NOT CHEAT. All they did was break a rule. An action that, according to a majority of the coaches currently coaching and previous coaches, really had no bearing on the outcome of the game in which the taping occurred.
  15. LuthierJr

    LuthierJr Rookie

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    So by your words it's not surprising that a coordinator who worked under a head coach who use filming as scouting used the same practices. If you want to take it that route then think about this for a second.

    J. Johnson admitted to filming opposing teams signals.

    J. Johnson said he learned how to do it from Marty Schotenheimer.

    Marty S. worked in Kansas City at the time. This is back in the late 80's to mid 90's.

    Marty Schottenheimer has been a coach of:

    84-88 Browns
    89-98 Chiefs
    2001 Redskins
    01-06 Chargers

    No reason to believe that he has not been doing this with every team he has coached.

    So this "cheating" has been happening for around 20-25 years just with Marty.

    Coaches that worked under/with him at some point. I’m sure I’m missing others. I’ll list the teams these guys worked with and the years. We could actually break it down further from these guys and add the coaches who worked under these guys too. I’ve also included Mudd, Hatley, and Belichick.

    Cam Cameron
    94-96 Redskins
    02-06 San Diego
    2007 Miami
    2008 Baltimore

    Bill Cowher
    85-88 Cleveland
    89-91 Kansas City
    92-06 Pittsburgh

    Herm Edwards
    90-95 Kansas City
    96-00 Tampa Bay
    01-05 NYJ
    06-08 Kansas City

    Tony Dungy
    81-88 Pittsburgh
    89-91 Kansas City
    92-95 Minnesota
    96-01 Tampa Bay
    02-08 Indianapolis

    Marvin Lewis
    92-95 Pittsburgh
    96-01 Baltimore
    2002 Washington
    03-08 Cincinnati

    Ken Whisenhunt
    97-98 Baltimore
    1999 Cleveland
    2000 NYJ
    01-06 Pittsburgh
    07-08 Arizona

    Lovie Smith
    96-00 Tampa Bay
    01-03 St. Louis
    04-08 Chicago

    Rod Marinelli
    96-05 Tampa Bay
    06-08 Detriot

    Mike Tomlin
    01-05 Tampa Bay
    2006 Minnesota
    07-08 Pittsburgh

    Gunther Cunninham
    90-94 Oakland
    95-00 Kansas City
    01-03 Tennessee
    04-08 Kansas City

    Lindy Infante
    dates sketchy but was a Coordinator with Browns
    88-91 Green Bay
    96-97 Indianapolis

    Mike McCarthy
    93-98 Kansas City
    1999 Green Bay
    00-04 New Orleans
    2005 San Francisco
    06-08 Green Bay

    Wade Phillips
    1985 New Orleans
    86-88 Philadelphia
    89-94 Denver
    95-97 Buffalo
    02-03 Atlanta
    04-06 San Diego
    07-08 Dallas

    Jimmy Johnson
    89-93 Dallas
    96-99 Miami

    Howard Mudd
    74-76 Chargers
    1977 San Francisco
    78-82 Seattle
    83-88 Cleveland
    89-92 Kansas City
    93-97 Seattle
    98-08 Indianapolis

    Mark Hatley
    84-86 New Orleans
    87-97 Kansas City
    98-01 Chicago
    01-04 Green Bay

    Bill Belichick
    1975 Baltimore (colts)
    76-77 Detriot
    1978 Denver
    79-90 NYG
    91-95 Cleveland
    1996 New England
    97-99 NYJ
    00-08 New England

    And of course his son, and brother:

    Brian Schottenheimer
    1997 St.Louis
    1998 Kansas City
    2001 Washington
    02-05 San Diego
    06-08 NYJ

    Kurt Schottenheimer
    87-88 Cleveland
    89-01 Kansas City
    2001 Washington
    02-08 Detriot

    I’ll start taking this one step further too. I’ll start breaking down some more of the prominet coaches under Marty and showing thier coaching tree. Such as:

    Bill Cowher (these are just some of the future head coaches)

    Dom Capers (Carolina Panthers and Houston Texans)
    Chan Gailey (Dallas Cowboys)
    Jim Haslett (New Orleans Saints)
    Mike Mularkey (Buffalo Bills)
    Ken Whisenhunt (Arizona Cardinals)
    Dick LeBeau (Cincinnati Bengals)
    Marvin Lewis (Cincinnati Bengals)

    Bill Belichick:

    Romeo Crennel, Cleveland Browns
    Eric Mangini, New York Jets

    Also Belichick assistants now serve as coordinators, assistant head coaches, or executives for teams around the league (I’ve not included current NE staff):

    Phil Savage, general manager for the Cleveland Browns
    Rob Ryan, defensive coordinator for the Oakland Raiders
    Jim Schwartz, defensive coordinator for the Tennessee Titans
    Jeff Davidson, offensive coordinator of the Carolina Panthers

    Tony Dungy: ( some of these guys were already listed under Marty S)

    Herman Edwards
    Lovie Smith
    Rod Marinelli
    Mike Tomlin
    Mike Shula
    Joe Berry
    Leslie Frazier
    Jim Caldwell

    Of course Dungy was under Marty S as well as Bill Walsh so Dungy got his roots from the Steelers Dynasty of the 70’s (can you say steroids?) And he also served under Chuck Noll and Bud Carson.


    If you look back from Bill Belichick you see Parcells who has under his coaching tree:


    Bill Belichick, New England Patriots
    Tom Coughlin, New York Giants
    Sean Payton, New Orleans Saints
    Romeo Crennel, Cleveland Browns
    Eric Mangini, New York Jets
    Tony Sparano, Miami Dolphins
    Ray Handley, New York Giants
    Al Groh, New York Jets
    Chris Palmer, Cleveland

    Scott Pioli, the current Vice President of Player Personnel for the New England Patriots is Parcells’ son-in-law.

    If you look one up from Marty Schottenheimer you find Lou Saban. His coaching tree would fill up this whole friggin page.

    So up to this point so far it is all fact. Now here is a little speculation.

    Lets just say 25% of the coaches took a Que from their mentors and utilized taping, which by your account is not surprising, and J. Johnson proves that coaches do use methods others do. Even common sense will tell you that people copy techniques they learn from mentors/superiors, ect. That 25% (which is a conservative estimate in my opinion) would cover almost every team in he NFL at one point or another.

    Even your Vikings had one or more of the coaches that was either a direct, or indirect descendant of the Schottenheimer coaching tree from 1992-2008.

    Now do you really think this was an isolated incident that one or two coaches engaged in??
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    Last edited: Oct 30, 2008
  16. NFL_Truth

    NFL_Truth Rookie

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    All you did was branch a tree off of one coach who said he cheated. So you assume that the coach he learned from did it and taught it with zero proof, then later assume that it spread like a virus to countless coaches?

    Problem here is zero proof. It's a theory with no foundation.
  17. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Zero proof? He has as much proof about them cheating as you do the Pats cheating.

    Damn you are ignorant.

    P.S. He used your own argument against you moron. Let me spell it out for you. Jimmie Johnson admitted to videotaping the way the Patriots did. He said he learned it from Schottenheimer. YOUR theory is that because Belichick cheated and we have pictures of the Jets cheating that it went from the HC (Belichick) to the DC (Mangini). The same logic you used would also apply to Schottenheimer and Johnson and, therefore, the entire tree. Its your own logic. Can't you see how STUPID it is.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2008
  18. LuthierJr

    LuthierJr Rookie

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    Most of what I posted was fact. Maybe it was a little to comprehensive for you. Let me give you the crib notes.

    Marty S has been doing this (filming signals) over 20 years ago. Jimmy Johnson came out and said he learned it from him. Coaches quite often take methods from other coaches they worked under/with. The coaches who worked under or with marty would have had a greater chance to try this scouting technique. If they chose not to then they would, at very least, know it was taking place and changed signals from game to game or even within the game to prevent any in game advantage. This is/was not a isolated incedent with one or two evil coaches. It was a widespread practice which is clear from both admission from coaches who did it as well as common sense.

    Does this make the breaking of the rule in 2007 okay? No of course not. It does, however, show that pre-2007 this was common practice and not quite as malicious as patriot haters make it out to be. It got blown out of porportion by sensationalism reporting by espn and others.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2008
  19. NFL_Truth

    NFL_Truth Rookie

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    It's difficult but a fan must be loyal despite their teams record, not be a bandwagon jumper to a team that is a proven winner.

    But in all fairness, without cheating, The Patriots have not won any Super Bowls either. They did become AFC champions twice without cheating which is impressive, but when it comes to without cheating. My team is tied with yours with zero championships. Difference is, my team didnt cheat.
  20. NFL_Truth

    NFL_Truth Rookie

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