NFL.com: Broncos chasing 2007 Pats

[Rob0729]

Montee Ball was put on the bench because the Broncos are a passing offense and his blocking is sub-par. From a pure running standpoint, he looked lightyears better than Hillman and Moreno on the limited opportunities he got Thursday night.

Ball rushed 8 times for 24 yards (3.0 YPC) and Hillman ran 9 times for 28 yards (3.1 YPC). Ball's longest run was 9 yards and Hillman's longest was 7 yards. I think you are way overstating things. Ball sucked just as bad as Hillman.

Broncos OL was fine when it comes to run blocking. They're going to be an achilles heel when it comes to pass blocking. Another reason Ball dropped was because of concerns that Wisconsin ran the tread off of him in college, which is a legitimate concern. But you're reading the reports from the same guys that you probably killed when they said bad things about Belichick's draft picks for, and not watching him so I can understand where you're getting the "too slow" opinion from. I've watched a good amount of Ball in college, and I can tell you that it's pretty thoroughly untrue

The wear and tear was an issue too, but I read quite a few scouting reports all had issues with his speed at the NFL level.

He'll be in their starting line-up by the end of the season in spite of his blocking woes because, as you correctly stated, they're going to need a competent running game which they're not going to get with Moreno (who sucks) and Hillman (JAG).

I wouldn't bet on him being in the starting line up and if he does, I wouldn't bet on him being anything more than a below average starting RB. I have seen nothing from him in the two preseason games and Thursday to think this guy is even average, nevermind special.

Personally, from what I have seen from the two preseason games that I watched and Thursday, Hillman is their best RB right now and if he didn't fumble twice in a preseason game he would be starting right now.

 

[BSR]

Ravens should have beaten the Pats in 2007 if not for Rex Ryan

btw, the pats average margin of victory in 2007 was 18pts. They had some incredible blowouts but they also played some close games too.

But the early part of the year when the weather was still nice and the offense was new to everyone it was a different story. That 2007 Pats team was destroying teams on offense, defense and special teams. They could literally do whatever they wanted. I never had seen anything like it and that Denver performance still wasn't anything near them. That being said, that 2007 Pats team really showed their dominance in the second game.

 

[fnordcircle]

the only problem with them going 16-0 is they are playing in foxborough week 12

As long as the Patriots are playing in February I don't care how many regular season games they lose.

I'd rather be the 2007/2011 Giants than the 2007/2011 Pats.

 

[Kontradiction]

Ball rushed 8 times for 24 yards (3.0 YPC) and Hillman ran 9 times for 28 yards (3.1 YPC). Ball's longest run was 9 yards and Hillman's longest was 7 yards. I think you are way overstating things. Ball sucked just as bad as Hillman.

The Ravens pass defense sucked, but their run defense was going it's job. Between Ball and Hillman, it was pretty clear to anyone who wasn't blind who had more burst.

The wear and tear was an issue too, but I read quite a few scouting reports all had issues with his speed at the NFL level.

He has the speed for the NFL level. I've seen you take the "timed speed vs. game speed" approach, correctly, when it comes to the Patriots. You're not incapable of doing the same thing with other teams.

I wouldn't bet on him being in the starting line up and if he does, I wouldn't bet on him being anything more than a below average starting RB.

Based on what? Oh...

I have seen nothing from him in the two preseason games and Thursday to think this guy is even average

I do believe you were the one tooting the horn of how much you can glean off of preseason games after the Pats got destroyed by Detroit. I'll raise you your two preseason games and 8 carries on Thursday for four years. The kid is the best pure RB on the team and probably the worst at pass protection.

nevermind special.

Conjecture and a borderline red herring. I never said anything of the sort.

 

[Rob0729]

The Ravens pass defense sucked, but their run defense was going it's job. Between Ball and Hillman, it was pretty clear to anyone who wasn't blind who had more burst.

Come on. That is like comparing a tortoise vs. a slower tortoise in terms of burst. Neither looked good. I mean Ball got 24 yards on 8 carries and 9 of them were on one carry. That means he got 15 yards on the other seven which is a little over 2 yards a carry.

It isn't a matter of who was better, but who sucked less and they were pretty much on par with each other.

No offense, but you may be a little too invested in this guy to see that every one of the Broncos RBs looked like crap on Thursday and not one of them stood out as a guy you would want as a starter.

He has the speed for the NFL level. I've seen you take the "timed speed vs. game speed" approach, correctly, when it comes to the Patriots. You're not incapable of doing the same thing with other teams.

As of right now, he hasn't proved it. At this point, he has yet to show he is an NFL quality RB no matter the reason. He has really underwhelmed thus far.

It is one game into his career. So there is no reason to send this guy to Bustville, but he is clearly not ready to be a starter at this point.

I do believe you were the one tooting the horn of how much you can glean off of preseason games after the Pats got destroyed by Detroit. I'll raise you your two preseason games and 8 carries on Thursday for four years. The kid is the best pure RB on the team and probably the worst at pass protection.

Again, I said that the preseason and the first game is not a point to write him off, but he currently the third guy off the bench and really isn't even showing flashes of being a very good RB. He could turn it around, but he has underwhelmed thus far.

Next week, he could rush for 150 yards and change the whole discussion. But thus far, he has been below average every time I have seen him.

Ridley started his career with a less than stellar rookie season and then became a top 10 RB in his second year. So Ball could follow a similar career path. I am just not holding out much hope that he is going to emerge as the start or nevermind a good starter any time soon. Doesn't mean next season he couldn't be a 1200 yard, 12 TDs RB in his second year like Ridley became. I just don't think he is going to emerge this year based on the limited sample size I have seen this year.

Conjecture and a borderline red herring. I never said anything of the sort.

I may have either not clarified myself or you misunderstood what I was saying (probably the former). When I said anything special I mean a good or very good RB, not Adrian Peterson level. I didn't mean to indicate you were saying he is going to be elite.

 

[tonyto3690]

I would take the 2007 Patriots QB, WRs, OL, coaching, front 7, and running game over this years Broncos'. I mean, come on, it's really not even close.

The only thing the Broncos have over that team is easier schedule.

I'm sure we will see the Broncos light it up this year just because their offense is so talented and division is so laughably bad but as you bear through the endless Peyton slurping this season, just rest assured he is going to inevitably choke in the playoffs and cost his team the win.

Did everyone else not notice how Peyton completed like 2 passes when it was raining/windy but when the storm passed that's when the offense took off?

spoiler alert: in the playoffs the weather is going to be bad for at least one full game

 

[FourierSeries]

I would rather be chasing the 2001, 2003, and 2004 Pats. Just saying.

 

[sly24]

I doubt they'll reach the Pats 2007 offense numbers. It's a long shot, but it's possible. The thing they won't achieve though is the dominance. Their defense is no where near as good as what the 2007 Pats defense was.

 

[tonyto3690]

I doubt they'll reach the Pats 2007 offense numbers. It's a long shot, but it's possible. The thing they won't achieve though is the dominance. Their defense is no where near as good as what the 2007 Pats defense was.

Not only that, but people really forget how dominant the offense was. I mean we all know it was good, but how good it was was staggering.

The Chargers were coming off 2006 where they were the best team in the NFL and loaded on both sides of the ball and we blew them out. The Cowboys were 13-3 and we blew them out.

The Broncos offense will not approach the 2007 Offense.
The Broncos defense will not approach the 2007 Defense.

 

[AQPE]

Kontra:

Having read your evaluations of college and young players over the years, I'll defer to your far greater expertise in this area, but regarding Ball, what nags at me on top of the criticisms you and Rob debated is that I can't think of an offensive player (including an OL) out of Wisconsin in the Alvarez/Bielsma era these past 20 years that has been anything special at all in the NFL. Lee Evans is the only one I can think of that was what I'd think of as an above-average offensive player. Just my humble opinion, obviously, but maybe there's something to it, and perhaps that's something Rob had in mind.

=====

To the topic of this thread, there's a lot to like about the Broncos offense, and I think the comparisons are both understandable and valid. However, I'd break this down as follows:

• As much talent as Thomas has, I don't see him playing at the 2007 Moss level - I think even we Pats fans may have forgotten how dominant Moss really was. Thomas was pretty invisible Thursday night in the first 2.5 quarters, and I don't remember Moss disappearing like that in 2007 (I'm sure there will be someone here to help refresh my memory on that). Edge: 2007 Pats.

• I don't believe this Welker is all that close to the 2007 Welker when it comes to quickness or concentration. Edge: 2007 Pats.

• Decker I think is better than the Stallworth/Gaffney combination was in 2007. Edge: 2013 Broncos.

• I don't like the Broncos running game at all, and certainly the 2007 Pats were anything great running the ball. Edge: neither

• So to me, in regard to whether this year's Broncos offense can score to the level of the 2007 Pats, the biggest X factor is Julius Thomas. The 2007 Pats didn't have anyone that to my recollection could make plays like Julius did Thursday night. Yes, Gates and Gonzalez, and now Graham have made the transition from basketball to football, but that's a tough transition, a lot of failures on that road. Also we are not talking about a first-year player here, there have been some injury issues with him, so let's wait to see how he progresses and handles adjustments through a season, plays in the cold, etc. before anointing him a top 5 TE. Edge: indeterminate

 

[RIpats88]

Havent we see this song and story before though? manning dominating in the regular season, ESPN gushing all over him/the team...

lets wait for the playoffs when the weather isn't as good and see how manning performs then

 

[patsfan-1982]

That has always been the difference between a Brady and Manning offense. The Pats run the ball a lot in the red zone. Manning is throwing a heck of a lot more in the red zone.

As I pointed out in a previous post, the Pats scored 17 rushing TDs in 2007. The two Welker TDs on Thursday night would be rushing plays for a lot of teams. I would have bet if the Pats were in the same position, Ridley would have at least one of those TDs.

that's the way I seen them using Welker as well like a west coast style short routes he pretty much is there running game that's why he averaged just over 6 yards per catch great for a RB bad for a WR. and Welker never was a big TD guy with the pats so like you said at lest one of does TD's would have been a rushing TD

 

[cstjohn17]

I hope the Patriots win the Superbowl but the next best thing would be the Broncos going 18-1.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I hope the Patriots win the Superbowl but the next best thing would be the Broncos going 18-1.

17-1 is next best, losing to the Pats

 

[BlueThunder]

that's the way I seen them using Welker as well like a west coast style short routes he pretty much is there running game that's why he averaged just over 6 yards per catch great for a RB bad for a WR. and Welker never was a big TD guy with the pats so like you said at lest one of does TD's would have been a rushing TD

Not sure if one of does TD's would have been a running play. I've seen many of dees plays and a lot were passing TD's.