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Needs not addressed

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by patsfanboy, Apr 30, 2011.

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  1. patsfanboy

    patsfanboy Rookie

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    We still have so many areas that we need to upgrade and yet we haven't. We still need DE, OLB and interior OL. We have Devin and Bolden as starter and BJGE plus Woodhead. They were more luxury picks than need, basically we drated back-ups.

    We were 32nd Defense in the league last season for the longest time, we might have jumped a little at the end, but still as far as upgrading the needs, we simply haven't. With 4 picks left in the laster rounds, it isn't being fixed.

    They say that every year is never the same in football, i can't say that this year.
  2. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    The draft had depth at 4 positions in my opinion:

    OL/RB/QB/DE

    We've hit on 3 of those 4, and obviously had a tremendous 'luxury' after going 14-2. DE/OLB was not as much of a 'need' as everyone thought, at least not in BB's mind.

    We got a monster OT, we got one of the best talent-wise QB's in the entire draft (not speaking of 'character' issues), we got a great, potential HR hitting RB + some depth at the position, and we got another potential high pick, shutdown CB. Youth, speed, talent...

    And most importantly, we are adding more picks to next yr's draft, specifically having 2 first rounders again, AND 2 second rounders...My God, what more could you want? If you just get over the fact the BB did not agree with our assessment that DE was a 'major need,' you will see the beauty of this draft so far. We had a rare luxury, got the picks back already for next year, and pretty much took ZERO RISK.

    I think it's a great draft, considering that we didn't have many needs. We will still address the front 7, whether that's through the mid to late rd picks, UFDA's, or even free agency.
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
  3. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

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    Going into a draft with the mindset to address needs rather than picking up good football players with real value is a great way to bring your team down quickly. Stop being naive.
  4. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Fact: Over the second half of last season, the Patriots were 3rd in points allowed.

    Fact: Over the second half of last season, the Patriots were 2nd in sacks.

    The Patriots don't need more talent in the front 7, they need more experience. Drafting players who don't fit the scheme doesn't make anybody more experienced.
  5. patsfanboy

    patsfanboy Rookie

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    I am sorry but i believe that you are the only one naive here. See a top rank player ranking and check the draft board and tell me how they are alike. It is based on need+value. There was room for improvement in both CB and RB but not enough to neglect the rest.
  6. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    What was 'neglected?'

    Belichick did not agree that DE and front 7 were of as much importance as you did...case closed.

    We had OL, RB, and CB addressed, and instantly gave ourselves a shot at utilizing whatever talent level that was there with Mallett at BPA,
  7. patsfanboy

    patsfanboy Rookie

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    Aside from Solder, they won't help much during this season, i can't see anyone of those draftees being more than back ups, i really can't see them play that a lot of snaps.

    As far as the front 7 goes, the only issue i have is with the OLB core, there are the weakest part in this team, and i believed that we should have fixed it before the end of the 3rd round, that was the neglect part.
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
  8. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Fair enough pt about the front 7, as I can certainly understand why you see neglect there. Fortunately, we do not call the shots, and BB has a much better grasp of the situations than we do. Apparently, he did not think that front 7 was a huge need, and that some depth and competition could be added later.

    Your guess on no one contributing this yr is very opinionated. You have no idea that Dowling cannot contribute as a nickel or dime, and have no idea whether or not he will shoot out of the gates in TC. Someone can certainly get hurt on top of everything. He will certainly add to special teams, IMO.

    The exact same thinking goes for Vareen. Yes, we have an underrated and very reliable back in BJGE. However, that doesn't mean that Vareen will not contribute, or even be a great change of pace back--again, we could certainly have him plugged in at a position that tends to be very injury prone.
  9. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    No my friend you don't have so many needs including a DE, and an interior OL. You may or may not need an OLB as you played two new ones last season and they will be better after their first years, presumeably.

    We have the following DLs: Wilfork, T Warren, G Warren, Brace, Deaderick, Wright, Pryor, Stroud, and Love, who have demonstrated some talent, and a host of other hopefuls. That is 9. The number a team usually carries is 5-7. who do you want to cut so you can draft some more in the late rounds?

    We have the following OLs: Light, Mankins, Kopen, Connelly, Volmer, Kaczur, Ohrnberger, Wendell, Levoir and Ojinaka who have started, and Solder that is 11, and a host of other hopefuls, like Manieri. The usual number to keep is 7-8. Who do you need to cut for your new OLs?

    We have 5 RBs but will probably let a couple oldsters go, and we added two more thsi dradft. The usual number to keep is 3-5.

    We had two QBs and now we have three. The usual number to keep is three.

    We have three OLBs Cunningham, Ninkovitch and TBC who have started, and a possible reserve in Fletcher. The usual number to keep is 3-4. There is one opening possibly to be filled with an unplayable rookie or a vet FA. What do you REALLY expect BB to do?

    I expect a FA OLB to be signed. :rolleyes:
  10. jukes

    jukes Rookie

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    I'm not exactly sold we needed another linebacker or end so high in the draft, especially with all the age we had at RB and uncertainty at OL
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
  11. tricktak

    tricktak Banned

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    outside linebacker is a definate need and I see them getting one here in the 4th round. Think about it all they really have right now are Ninkovich, Cunningham, Banta-Cain and who else really. Dane Fletcher and Gary Guyton are more inside linebackers and you really can't count on Banta-Cain to be your big pass rusher nor can you trust Eric Moore to be that. They may really see defensive end as a position where they do have depth with Warren, Deaderick, Brace, Wright and Pryor. I can see them going outside linebacker early on day three but it's possible they don't adress defensive end at all with all the guys they already have.
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
  12. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree, you cannot just keep plugging 1st and 2nd year players into this D and expect a quick fix.. we have moved on from the Hank Poteat days and our backfield is as good as any in the NFL right now.

    This Team has gotten better and younger in need areas...
  13. Wilfork#75

    Wilfork#75 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    We don't have a 4th round pick, we traded it to the Raiders. While it was a good value trade, I think we really could have used those picks. I'm still hoping Greg Romeus falls into the 5th round.
  14. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    I see a couple needs to address.

    4.) DE - a big 5 technique, given how we ran out of healthy bodies at this position last season, but we have added Stroud and do get T Warren back.

    3.) WR - Down the field #2 WR that can pull a safety out of the box.

    2.) OG - unless the Patriots have a secret long term deal in place with Mankins, this is a fairly big need, especially since Neal retired. If there is no secret deal and last I checked, Mankins had not signed his franchise tag deal, then Mankins could sit out and play hard ball again next year,meaning both our 2010 starters will not be starting in 2011.

    1.) OLB. - It is on the list year after year, but BB continues to bring in jokes like Burgess instead of drafting a kid with a wart or two and coaching them up.
  15. Patriot Missile

    Patriot Missile Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    We could probably bring back Tippett to play OLB. He looked in good shape for being out of football for so many years.
  16. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    If a young Tippet were draft eligible this year, BB would have passed on him, because there is no tape showing Tippet dropping into coverage. Forget the 20 plus sacks and the stock run defense, BB wants to see coverage.

    BB has either unrealistic expectations and passes on guys that come back to haunt us,see Mathews, or BB has no belief that his vaunted coaching staff can coach up a youngster to play the position, see Woods and Crable.
  17. Wilfork#75

    Wilfork#75 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    I agree with all of your needs and I think their are still some guys available that could fill them.

    Still some interesting guys on the board. Ian Williams, Lawrence Guy, David Carter, Jerel Powe, Anthony Gray and Cedrick Thornton. They all offer something different depending on what BB is looking for. My sleeper is Adrian Taylor out of Oklahoma as a development NT. Lacks great length for a 5 tech, but plays with great technique and has a great anchor. Take him in the 7th, put him on IR and bulk him up to play NT.

    Still quite a few guys available. I'd like a bigger, more physical WR like Terrence Tolliver, but there are still plenty of guys available. If he makes it to the 5th, Edmond Gates could be your down the field threat.

    Still some interesting guys on the board. The most interesting for me is Marcus Cannon. if he's there in the 5th/6th round I'd take a chance on the kid IR him for a year and hope he gets healthy. Im really pulling for this kid.

    I think most people on this board would love Greg Romeus. If he's there in the early 5th we have to consider him. But there are still some other decent options available. Sam Acho is still on the board, so is Pernell McPhee, Pierre Allen, Ugo Chinasa, Steven Friday or even take a chance on Herzlich.

    Still a lot of good guys on the board so we shouldn't give up yet. I just wish we had 2 or 3 more picks.
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
  18. manxman2601

    manxman2601 Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    1. BB bought in Cam Jordan and Wilkerson in for visits and passed on Jordan once and Wilkerson twice. I think that tell us everything we need to know about how he views this draft class in comparison to what we already have. Excluding our first three picks, Kenrick Ellis was passed on five times by the Pats. I suspect BB is perfectly happy with just adding Ty Warren and Marcus Stroud to the D/Line.

    2. Last years DE/OLB hybrid class was a much deeper one than this years. Of all the hybrids picked, only one, Carlos Dunlap, got more sacks than Ninckovich and TBC (and Dunlap played in a 4-3). I cannot see why, this much more abbreviated class, would necessarily fair any better.
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
  19. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    I have had my fill of that misinformative and misleading "32nd completion percentage on third down", while ignoring that we were playing two rookies. a sophjomore, with the best CB on IR, and breaking in a new sophmore S.

    Now that we can see BB's thinking and the important facts, there is not as much to criticize, is there?
  20. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

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    He's not neglecting the rest. BB is not blowing smoke up everyone's ass when he says 'I do what is in the best interest of the football team'. In Belichick's mind, drafting a defensive lineman or an outside linebacker is not in the best interest of the football team. Why? No one really knows, but I can speculate: (1) not a good scheme match (2) risk in contract size (3) not good value. If BB thought Quinn was a 'cant-miss-guy' he would've tried to trade up for him - hell, maybe he did try to trade-up and no one wanted to be the Patriots' trade parter. If BB though Wilkerson or Jordan could come in to the team and have the production that matches the draft status (i.e. production = #17/#28 pick) then he would've picked him. He doesn't, and it really is that simple. BB is better than you at all things football, and yes he is wrong many times, but he will always be right more times than you will ever be.
  21. FredFromDartmouth

    FredFromDartmouth Rookie

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    Not so fast; case not closed. We do not know for sure if this is how BB felt during the draft. I happen to think that the Mike Reiss hypothesis is correct; BB wanted someone like Jabaal Sherard but gambled that he would be around later in the second or that Heyward would be around at 33. As we know the gamble (if that is what it was) failed.

    I am not sure we will ever know the truth unless Michael Holley or someone of his ilk was in the War Room....There could have been screaming when Sheard was taken; who knows.

    If the Reiss hypothesis is correct we might see a strong play by the Patriots for a FA pass rusher (if any are available) and we also might see less trade-downs next year. I think that they got burned this year and next year will stop screwing around and take the guy they want if he is available.
    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  22. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    The fact that you care where the Pats were rated in terms of yards allowed tells me you aren't focusing on what is important.

    The Pats added Marcus Stroud to be the RDE for at least the next year. The Pats will also have Ty Warren and Brace returning. Not to mention Deaderick, Pryor, Richard, Favorite and a couple of others. Would a new, long term DE have been nice. Sure. But the Pats weren't giving up what it would take to get that sort of player.

    Who are "Devin and Bolden"?? Sure you are on the right board???

    The Pats, BB in particular, like Eric Moore as an OLB. He's not a long term fix, but could be short term. Add him to Ninkovich, Cunningham and TBC and the Pats are decent there.. And better if they get good play from Stroud or Ron Brace at RDE. There is also an outside possibility of them adding someone in free agency.

    The Pats added a player in Marcus Cannon who should be able to move inside and play OG. They also have Ohrberger, Wendell, and Thomas Austin. They could also sign someone like Harvey Dahl, especially if Mankins walks..

    The Pats had Woodhead and Clayton under contract for RBs prior to the start of the draft. That's it. BJGE is an RFA and could be made a UFA is there is a change in the rules with a new CBA. So, adding Vereen and Ridley makes a lot of sense. And there is a chance that Ridley could be even better than BJGE.
  23. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Hey - we've got another Ms. Cleo on our hands. Clearly you must know the future if you say that neither Vereen nor Ridley are going to be of any use.

    My money is that both make the team and both score at least 3 TDs this year.

    Who, in your mind, would have been able to step into this defense at OLB and help immediately???
  24. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    Sciz,

    Those are interesting trend line stats. They also confirm my 20-20 eyeball observations. The Defense got much better as the season went on.

    Until the rash of DL injuries just became too much for the good depth to overcome; and you saw 5'10", 190#, Kyle Arrington playing Defensive line....
  25. tricktak

    tricktak Banned

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    BB is high on Eric Moore
  26. Coach42

    Coach42 Rookie

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    #87 Jersey

    That could be an accurate hypothesis but I personally don't think so. The Pats had the ammo to basically move anywhere they wanted to on the draft board. They didn't have to sit and wait for anyone to fall to them if they really coveted a player they easily could have moved up for them.
  27. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    The Pats had several OLBs.. You forgot Eric Moore (who BB is very high on) and Marques Murrell.

    That being said, if the Pats signed a Marcus Spears or Cullen Jenkins, then that automatically will improve the LBs.. But there are some good OLBs available as well as several good guards.

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ents-once-free-agency-begins.html#post2539481
  28. Sfpat

    Sfpat Rookie

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    Again, with no rookie camps, playbooks, ota's, organized workouts, player contact, etc, this was not a good year to draft inexperienced, immature, undisciplined, young players (say like Wilkerson or Ellis) and expect them to show up at camp ready to go. Check out the Jets boards in September.
  29. rookBoston

    rookBoston Rookie

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    I do believe BB feels he has players at DE, OLB and OG that he can count on.

    DL - the list of "blooded" linemen is pretty long after the streak of IR losses last year. We get Warren back, we get Wright back. Stroud is a veteran addition, and there's a whole stable of youngsters headlined by Brace, Deaderick and Love, each of which looked pretty credible at times. As BB would say, it's really a question of consistency

    OLB - (1) I think fans seriously underrate Ninkovich as a player for us. He was dominant at Miami with two INTs, and does a good job sealing the edge. (2) Moore is still a bit of an unknown quantity for fans, but he showed up in a few games at the end of the season without the benefit of training camp. (3) Cunningham is coming off his rookie year where he flashed potential. None of these players have peaked, and each of them have cause for optimism if they continue to progress. I think BB has decided to ride these guys, plus TBC. They're all young, smart and willing.

    One moment of regret is that the pats didn't draft Jeremy Beal, who fell all the way to the end of the 7th round! Good god. He was mocked in early drafts in the 1st and 2nd rounds, but tested poorly at the Combine. I would have liked to see him at camp.

    OG - I do think that Cannon was drafted to play inside for us, and could be an elite player. Almost all of BBs late round picks are long shot players with a high upside. Given his cancer diagnosis, it may be a while before we see Cannon suit up for us. But Stephen Neal took a few years before he took his role in the starting lineup. Brandon Tate was a medial redshirt too. BB is willing to invest the time if he sees the upside. OG is clearly a need, but I think BB believes that he has his future starter on the roster already. And when you figure that Mankins missed half a season, and Neal was injured for a good part of it too, its another example where BB has young players who've been training at the position, who he's prepared to entrust with a starting role.

    What makes these positions of "need" different from RB and TE and QB and LT is age. The oldest positions on the roster were the ones that BB drafted to fill this year. OG, DL, OLB... you may not be satisfied with the level of talent, but those positions are very young already. And the youngsters have untapped upside. I think BB wants to give them the time on the field to grow up.
    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  30. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I agree wholeheartedly.

    Not to sound harsh, but I really don't care what Mike Reiss speculates in this case, although I certainly respect him AND your opinion and point. If Belichick valued the position as much as you think, he would not have passed on such guys 2, 3 and 4 times over. There were multiple guys, with multiple fits--if BB had wanted someone, he'd certainly have taken SOMEBODY.
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